Karaoke Forums

Pardon me for just barging into this thread but I don't see why the manu's don't allow downloads. It's not really practical to put licensing information onto a pressed CDG disk such as "This product sold to Fred the talking Chicken or whoever but, a download you could mark seven ways to Sunday with very little effort.

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Okay, who took my pants?

Totally agree. I suspect it has nothing to do with the technology and everything to do with the arcane licensing which was all etched in stone pre-digital revolution.

The manufacturers CAN'T allow downloads- for use in shows, that is- because the U.S. hasn't drafted the kind of licensing required to make that possible, as the UK has.

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

So the lack of a license prevents U.S. manufacturers from being able to provide tracks to be downloaded and used for a purpose other than home/personal use?

Meaning that they can't do it because they've not obtained permission from the IP owner where UK based manus have?

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My statements, opinions and conclusions are based on my own personal experiences, observations, research and/or just my own $.02. I'm not a "cheerleader", but that doesn't make me a Pirate.

Actually Joe, I think you can use downloaded music in shows in the US.

I've been looking all about the internet and there are two types of downloads available... ones that are intended for nothing but personal use (most of these are MIDI anyways) and ones that are can be sold for personal use with no extra cost, but CAN be used in professional shows as long as the correct licensing is in place with the venue (These are the kinds of sites that you will find more songs made by companies commonly found in karaoke shows such as SBI, Zoom, THM, Sunfly... ect)... no different than using CD+G

I posted this in a thread I started yesterday:

http://www.tricerasoft.com/cgi-bin/yabb ... 1288141583

(I hope I'm allowed to post links in here )

Anything that's downloaded from the Tricerasoft site can be used in pro shows, as long as the venue obtains a blanket performance license from BMI or somewhere else... Up here in Canada it's SOCAN.

I've done alot of extensive research on the subject because I want to run my show MP3+G, but stay legal at the same time. Unfortunately, the laws governing digital karaoke are blurred so badly that they're really hard to understand.

The lack of a licensing agency in the USA is the reason. Canada and the UK has an agency set up to handle this and the US doesn't.

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The Line Array Experiment is over. Nothing to see here. Move along.

Thanks Danny.

So when someone says that Downloads are not legal for KJ use in the US, they're referring to tracks from manus that have not used the proper agency for obtaining the licensing to do so. Currently that includes all US based manus as their is no agency available for that type of licensing in the US.... but does not include UK based manus that obtained proper licensing......I think I said that right?

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My statements, opinions and conclusions are based on my own personal experiences, observations, research and/or just my own $.02. I'm not a "cheerleader", but that doesn't make me a Pirate.

Wouldn't BMI qualify as a US blanket licensing agent?

Not really. they only deal with the performance aspect and have little to do with the sync licensing that is needed to use it in a commercial show.

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The Line Array Experiment is over. Nothing to see here. Move along.

No I am referring to all Downloaded tracks that don't have a disc to correspond with the track. You can use custum cd's without any problem but can't use downloads. Whether or not the manufacturer got the rights to produce the track or not.

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The Line Array Experiment is over. Nothing to see here. Move along.

So your saying that tracks produced by manus like SBI, SunFly, Zoom, etc... and sold through a site like Tricerasoft aren't legal for use?

If yes, based on what?

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My statements, opinions and conclusions are based on my own personal experiences, observations, research and/or just my own $.02. I'm not a "cheerleader", but that doesn't make me a Pirate.

You can obtain the license directly from the owner of the copyright instead of using an agency (most of the publishers are located in the USA) and therefore it becomes a "universal" license because you obtained it from the owner - if your business is in the USA then they may give you a harder time to obtain it, but it doesn't actually matter where you are when you do. And who and what you sell to is then between you and the copyright owner (this is what you negotiate on). If you are outside the USA (or outside the owners territory), you can choose to use Agencies -OR- go direct. You can obtain these when you manufacturer the karaoke and you can obtain licenses similar to reselling (or distributing). It also doesn't matter what you sell and how you sell it as long as you obtain the correct license and "negotiate" with them for the correct medium (there is licenses for EVERYTHING! and EVERYTHING! is negotiable - it all depends how much money you are willing to put down). For example, all our licenses are for Permanent Karaoke Downloads. Does it affect any of you on which option we use?? ABSOLUTELY NOT! We also sell to KJs and report to the manufacturers who create the masters (the actual content), they are aware of the intend, and support both you and us. And if you were not all aware we added Tropical Zone to our catalogue, we recently contracted with them for their content and supplied over 4000 latin songs.

Well there you go Thanks Tri... I didn't see such a direct answer like that coming.

So I guess a good question to ask is, in your opinion, what would be the better option as a mobile karaoke DJ? Direct or Agent?

Also... just want to say thank you for your site I'm looking forward to using you as my #1 go to guys for my selection

Doesn't really matter when it comes to the consumer - but if you want to save some money on royalties as a distributor (better deal) and you have money to spare for an upfront advance then you go with Direct. No upfront but more per royalty then you go agency. We may move to Direct if we can negotiate a better rate and 'universal' means unlimited coverage of the world which makes it easier on us (one place to pay)- but the initial paper work is more when dealing Direct (the advantage of Agencies is you pay them to do this for you). And with the damage being caused in the karaoke industry (and NO, I will not eleborate), the publishers will demand direct at some point so the move would double benefit us.

No need to elaborate. In a karaoke hotbed such as Edmonton, it's hard not to see what's being done to this beloved industry and how hard it is for companies like you, and song producers to keep it going.

I think that since I have such a variety of different producers, I'm going to stick with SOCAN... but would love to stay informed of any positional shifting in the industry. Will you guys have a news section on your site?

I guess I can always check back with KIAA too.

TriceraSoft1:

OK let me see if I am understanding what you are saying.

If I download a track from YOU I can use it in a commercial setting, (kj show in a bar or where ever), and the manu of said song can not come after me for any kind of trademark, copy write or shift infractions as long as I do not change the download in anyway, and that you would back me in a court of law because you have the proper licensing to sell said track?

Did I get this right or did I misunderstand something?

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I like everyone when I first meet them. If you don't like me that's not my problem it's YOURS!
A stranger is a friend you haven't met yet

First of all it is NOT a "commercial" setting, you are not reselling or distributing the song AND you are not using it in the other meaning for Promotion or Advertising (for commercials). You are also NOT recording to this music (that is NOT in our license) - you are using it as an entertainer which is covered both under the royalty of our license and the VENUE MUST pay their entertainment license. And you have to keep the track as it is provided, we pay the license for a Permanent Karaoke Download - you can not convert it or burn it. You can keep a BACKUP, it must remain in your possession and only stored on a device that is used for backup purposes. And IF a manufacturer of ours (our supplier) or a publisher (the one they pay and we pay for licensing TWICE) asks about your content, you show them the receipt for those songs and they can refer to our payment schedule on who and how we pay them. NOTE that our manufacturers are well aware who we sell to, so if you showed any of their reps one of our receipts they will leave you alone. If you misused your tracks and you have tracks from other companies and manufacturers, we are not responsible for them and we are definately not responsible if your venue is skipping out on payments to the industry.

So it's cool for me to do that then? Do backup services (like ironmountain) qualify?

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Living my life as Robert Cortese, 162 E. Jackson St, San Jose CA.

It's like the difference between high and low budget toilet paper, it really doesn't matter in the end. -exweedfarmer

Which is smarter? Just sticking to making/selling karaoke, while people all over the world create software FOR FREE that helps you sell it, or trying to compete with them and keeping it a closed loop while you blow your money into an industry (software) that you(the karaoke manu) knows nothing about?
-me

No, this type of backup that you are holding songs on behalf of your customers is NOT OK! And not a subject for this thread.

Y'all pay attention to Tricerasoft, and read his answers closely. He's giving you straight answers and tellin' it like it is.

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Dave's not here.