Karaoke Forums

It's a $150 "fee" and a contractual obligation on top of the price of the disc in order to rip it... OR they SUE YOU..... and they sue YOUR VENUE. It has nothing to do with piracy (in this case), it has only to do with MONEY...

I have to side with those who say the logo does add value to the track.

Keep in mind that the karaoke show is not just for the person singing at that moment, it is for everyone in the room.

Someone in the room may also like singing the same song, but notices that the version the current singer is singing sounds better. The logo helps them easily identify what to look for the next time they want to sing that song or purchase it for practicing at home. That represents a value to the public. Removing that logo would certainly interfere with the goodwill the manufacturer is attempting to maintain with the public.

The rest of the value received through the public display of a logo is for the benefit of the manufacturer. That value is mostly in advertising, but would also include the goodwill a company acquires through the proper identification of their product.

When you watch a movie in a theater or on a television broadcast, you will see that they play it to the very end of the credits and the very last logo display. They can’t force you to stay and watch them all, but they are required to play them because in a public showing everyone is due their acknowledgements.

Since the question of this thread concerns the damages of logo removal, I think I have pointed out that there are indeed damages. The monetary value of those damages may be incalculable, but that's what statutory damages are for, and statutory damages are often on the high side of actual damages.

If one is trying to avoid a lawsuit based on consumer confusion of the source of a track by removing the logos, don’t you think the removal of the logo would certainly create more confusion than it avoids?

If the goal is to make sure you are avoiding any consumer confusion as to the source of your tracks, add a statement to your books, or a sign at your kiosk, or an occasional screen scroll, or a sign at your table, booth, or podium announcing the source of your tracks.

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KNOW THYSELF

Earthling,

While I do agree with most of your post above, I believe that there is one other factor that no one here has actually thought of: The showing of the logo can actually hurt a karaoke show.

If I have purchased a version of a song for karaoke and the patrons that come to see MY show... and/or participate in MY show.... see's someone else singing it... and there is NO LOGO... then they will know where they need to go to sing that song: Specifically, MY gig.

I would not be showing them a logo so that they can go out and buy it themselves - or purchase it via a download - to haul around to OTHER karaoke hosts shows or tell my competitor what brand and version of that song is their favorite.

Part of my function is to acquire and to keep customers coming into MY shows and not make it easier for them to purchase (or freely download) what I have and take it elsewhere. Our job as hosts is to put "butts in seats" remember? I'd rather they invite all their friends from the other bars to come where I am and sing it there. If they can see a logo and just buy it off the web and take it to my competitor's show that doesn't help me a bit - it helps the manufacturer AND my competitor. Manufacturers have been taking every opportunity to advertise in my gigs with their web address at the beginning, middle and end of their tracks. Do they need it more than once?

I'm not in business to help manufacturer's make more sales of their products by advertising for them and I'm not out to cause "confusion" either, I'm in business to keep patrons coming in to my gigs, singing from my system, spending money in my venues... that's job security. And because of that, I'd much rather have an entire library that is "unbranded" and making my patrons more dependent on my collection/selection of music.

After all, I'm under no obligation by the manufacturer to advertise their products for them publicly (free) when I've already purchased it. Their "damage" from what I can tell is all marketing-related and I'm not a willing participant in their product marketing if it really does not benefit me monetarily.

The flip side of course is for every manufacturer to simply GIVE me their library at no cost and then I'll be more than happy to proudly show off their logo because I'm being compensated for displaying their logo -the source patrons can look to buy - to a tens of thousands of consumers in a years time. How much would any company pay you to hold up their logo/web address a couple times every few minutes in a crowded nightclub? THAT has "value."

But seriously, there's got to be another reason It obviously has nothing to do with piracy... but have they won a single case on this? I can't believe a judge would agree with them on this

As for the logo, I do disagree with you on the importance of the brand, it has a value due their reputation of producing a high quality CDG file. SC once produced some very good quality tracks that has unfortunately been replaced by something better today... but that's a different story. But in this case, we're talking about the same logo that is been displayed, right??? So why would they care if I choose to play the digital file from my hard drive as opposed to the disk? I mean, are we not talking about the same thing A disk is a media, just like a USB stick or a Hard Drive Someone needs to tell them that we are no longer in the 90's

How does the track get from the disc to your hard drive?

Well it was extracted using a software capable of extracting both the audio and graphic, like CDG Ripper in my case It's just like I did when I decided it was time to import my total CD library to my hard drive... Does that mean I should have asked permission to do so?

That's an interesting point about trying to create a sense of exclusivity, but I think that just having the songs the customer wants to sing along with the other factors of your show should be enough to build customer loyalty. I find the logos more annoying than anything else, with the long silence they add to the beginning and end and the shameless self promotion they insert to the middle sometimes. Unfortunately, when using a manufacturer's graphics, the improper or absent display of their logo could lead to legal action. The best way to avoid that and achieve the look of exclusivity, would be to negotiate the sync rights to make a single copy of your own cdg directly with the publisher and substitute it for the original cdg.

My original point is that messing with the logo by changing or eliminating it could give a manufacturer cause for action based on the possibility of consumer confusion. If the possibility of consumer confusion is removed, the primary argument against "media shifting" is removed with it.

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KNOW THYSELF

It's buffered in there much the same way as the digital information from the disc is buffered into memory on a cd player before it is processed for screen display.

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KNOW THYSELF

And, "technically" a hard drive - and a compact disc - is nothing more than another form of computer "memory" that is less-volatile then some methods and more volatile than others. (Basic programming classes 101)

It's difficult to tell a company that has their whole business model stuck in the 90s that it's not the 90s. What do you suggest Sound Choice do? They can't suddenly start selling downloads, because they've deemed that "illegal". They really have no choice but to try and sue their way back into business. Meanwhile multiple lawsuits filed in Raleigh, NC more that 18 months ago have no resolution and all kjs that were named are still running multiple shows every week.

It's funny how they can sue KJ's clear across the nation, but they can't resolve any just down the road from their main office. You would think that they would clean up their own back yard before going after others in a different state!

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I like everyone when I first meet them. If you don't like me that's not my problem it's YOURS!
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I know what you mean Rick but there's got to be a business plan somewhere beside this suing business? They need to chase the ones that made them loose money, but that will take time and it will be costly... In the mean time, you have company's that are offering the download and custom disk option... They need to get in the parade, not watch it

What are they planning on doing with all these tracks? I know it might be easy for me to just make suggestions, but why not open a site in Europe and play the same game as Karaoke-Version and Zoom??? How about selling custom disks or any other format directly from their website?

I keep reading about the suing thing... but what is the REAL business plan at SC to get those tracks back on the market and start competing with the big guy's??? They were once the leader, so they should get their gear together and get back in business while continuing chasing the bad guy's

SC is already lined up with the cloud who offers downloads as well as streaming (remember the other dirty illegal word?) and will be offering their library (according to Kurt at the conference) on it. therefore digital distribution over the internet is only illegal until SC gets onboard.



remember, law suits take a while, especially when no evidence was found before the issue went to court and they get forced investigation by court order.



agreed, by i think everyone here.



correct, but that is illegal for another two weeks or so until SC is on the cloud.



which SC has but that is not their problem. if you want it it is up to you to make sure Clark (who is licensing the material but not the rights to sync) is paying those sync rights.



They are, in two weeks time the cloud pro goes live and SC karaoke is available over the internet legally, Kurt said so.



if you ask any currently producing karaoke manufacturer or record label making music videos you are correct. we are only talking about SC and PRLLC, one is only selling overstock that was licensed and imported before the law change (a smart business move for which i do not blame them in the least, i would have done the same) and another who was only created to sue KJ's for playing tracks from a computer.



[quote=earthling12357"]
It's buffered in there much the same way as the digital information from the disc is buffered into memory on a cd player before it is processed for screen display.[/quote]

that's what i thought............

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Paradigm Karaoke, The New Standard.......Shift Happens

So you're saying that a cd player retains that information in memory even after you remove the cd, put in a new one, and play it? So you can go back and play a track from the first cd without putting it back in the player?

Really? And under what law would that be? Unless Coca- Cola is the driver or the registered owner then they cannot be sued.

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You can be strange but not a stranger

Are you sure Why would a CD player need to buffer something that is not going to be written anywhere? I thought that a CD player would only read the digital info stored on the disk and will convert it from digital to analogue via the sound card

Are you saying that you used a software tool that read the CDG, did something with the information it read from the CDG, and wrote the result to your hard drive?



Maybe, maybe not. But because we're talking about different products, it's not necessary to answer that question right now.

Well, it didn't do anything to the digital info stored on the disk beside extracting it from the CD to my HD, kind of a copy paste It's like extracting a movie from a DVD to my HD to preserve and protect my investment

By using hardware and software designed for the job, Really no different then PLAYING the disc. The difference is.. Well, there isn't a difference because in most cases it's the SAME hardware and software.

Your motives may be 100% honorable, but you still need permission to do that because you are going to be using that copy--which is marked with the SC trademark and contains SC's trade dress--to provide commercial karaoke services.