Karaoke Forums

not totally true...
PEP released a CB disc of public domain tracks left over from CB this year.
why?...i'll leave that up to you, but it happened.
now if only one of the many promised SC discs ever came out...

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Paradigm Karaoke, The New Standard.......Shift Happens

This is serious production Paradigm? You know and I know why this was done to provide a fig leaf in order for PEP to continue to try and collect on the CB trademark, which probably for legal reasons would have drifted into the freeware status zone. Of course Jim would know about that. I thought digitrax bought the catalog of CB, I guess that is why they could only put public domain tracks on the disc, hardly new material.

neither one of us said "serious" production, just production.

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Paradigm Karaoke, The New Standard.......Shift Happens

To everyone that calls SC and CB "defunct labels", my challenge to you is to never buy discs again because practically all disc based material is "old" now. With so few disc producers, all of the disc based material is in essence "defunct".

That just means that while one tries to disparage particular brands by labeling them defunct or old or stale, you are in fact buying up the same old, stale songs, from different labels, that actually are defunct.

The fact still remains that SC and CB consistently created some of the best quality renditions for longer than practically every other company. They have extensive catalogs of tracks that are still in demand.

You may not like SC or CB for your own reasons, but a bunch of other people like them just fine.

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-Chris

The fact is chris that most labels are dead as you have said, only SC and CB because of PEP are being propped up and kept on life support, in order that their business model of suits drives sales can be maintained. Rather than having the good manners to know when the party is over, these two labels continue to maintain they are the party. Both SC and CB have become an embarrassment to the industry they once led. They have not kept up with the times, and still they want to call the shots. Much like the last Emperor of China living in the Forbidden City not knowing what is happening in the world outside. They will continue to be like the Monte Python movie where the guys with the cart are saying "Bring out Your Dead", and the son hauls to the wagon the old man saying "But I'm not dead yet". "Can't you help us out"?

Who is keeping them on life support? Kurt? or Kurt's customers? He obviously has some because they are still in business. So, in spite of your personal feelings considering them to be an embarrassment, enough others seem to think otherwise and continue to buy from PEP.

Ya know......I haven't shopped a Wal-Mart in over a decade because I don't agree with their business practices. But they serve a segment of the community that appreciate them in ways I cannot. Why can't you do the same for PEP?

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-Chris

They aren't they an embarrassment, really Chris? You pointed out on another topic that there are current labels that are successful and are not supported by hosts, but rather by non commercial customers. That the disc is passe as far as a modern delivery system for musical products. If other companies have shown the way how to be profitable why can't PEP follow suit? Why do they have to keep up the whole legal charade? The new customers at least the majority of them do not support PEP out of loyalty but by the fear of legal action. Forced customers like forced friends have no real love for the company or person that is doing the forcing. Kurt refuses to get with the times and want's to call the shots. If PEP would change it's business practices I wouldn't have a problem with them either. If they could adapt their business to reflect the new realities of the market place wouldn't help the entire commercial Karaoke industry? If they could be shown that they could be a viable company without harming the industry as a whole, wouldn't that be a win win situation?

Because you don't fully understand what it takes to get the licensing and do production and distribution of modern day karaoke tracks. It wasn't cheap or easy for anyone doing it now and even harder and more expensive for someone trying to get into the market now.



This is an opinion. Not a fact.



Do all sources have to support all customers? PEP has been pretty clear that they are now focused more on the KJ market than consumers. Sure, downloads seem to be the preferred delivery method by both producers and customers, but all control is lost once the track is released.

PEP wants to maintain control. You don't like that, but I do. We are different customers with different needs. PEP doesn't want you for a customer unless you want to adhere to their policies. Pretty simple stuff.



Again....."harming the industry" is an opinion, not a fact.

I think if you start asking SC supporters if they care if SC ever produces tracks again, many, if not most, will tell you they don't really care. They just want access to the SC tracks that have already been produced. That is something the SC does provide and people are buying.

btw......you keep mentioning the lawsuits......what lawsuits? I know there is some pending litigation going on, but they are not nearly as active as they have been. PEP seems to be making a living with fewer lawsuits and more offerings. Isn't that what you want?

I doubt it.

I don't think there is anything at all the PEP could do (except fold all together) that would get you to shut up about them.

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-Chris

You are right Chris I don't understand why other viable current labels can make a profit minus using legal suits to generate sales, you are going to have to explain that real carefully. The only reason I can think of is PEP as a company is bankrupt both talent wise and lacking the resources to modernize their business. The lack of support given freely is not only just my opinion it has been supported by both statements of Jim and the actions of PEP. How many times has Jim come on this forum and said without suits their sales would suffer? Not all sources have to support all customers, but if non commercial customers is where the money is and not hosts doesn't it make sense for PEP to maybe shift their marketing concept to include these new customers? Harming the industry is not just my opinion, others have noted that some venues have stopped having karaoke because they are afraid of legal problems associated with karaoke shows, and don't want the headaches. I don't want PEP to fold, I want it to find a way to stay in business without all the drama that comes with their current business practices. If lawsuits have declined it is because they have failed to bring about the desired effects, that is why it is time to rethink this whole legal process, and to get back to making money the old fashioned way earning it.

PEP simply has a different business model. Again, you don't like it, but I have no problem with it. You have access to just as much music as I do, perhaps even more.

There are a lot of factors that influence whether a venue does karaoke or not. I don't believe that lawsuits are top of mind *except* perhaps in areas where SC/PEP has repeatedly hit hard. They certainly don't care about it in WA.

In other words, just like the weather, what's happening right now where you live is not necessarily what is happening where I live. Your conditions do not necessarily apply to me or my area.

Also, this forum is not a standard that applies to any geography or even to the country as a whole. It is it's own bubble that differ drastically from what people experience in their geographies.

In yet other words......You are applying broad generalizations to everyone instead of only where they actually apply.

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-Chris

Who are the "viable" labels?

PartyTyme--focused heavily on the consumer market, selling through big-box retailers
Karaoke-Version (includes Karafun)--has a blanket licensing deal from the French rights society that covers the US
Digitrax--Recently had to crop their offerings by 50% due to licensing issues
UK labels (includes Sunfly, Zoom, SBI, etc.)--presence in the US was recently heavily curtailed when Tricerasoft was cut off from the US market

If you have access to retail markets, or if you have sweetheart (by comparison) licensing deals, or if you have access to foreign markets, then it is relatively easy to make a profit in this industry with new production. When you don't, it's almost impossible.

As for "suits drive sales," since you seem to be willfully thick on this issue, I'll explain it to you one more time.

The Sound Choice and Chartbuster Karaoke brands together account for almost 60% of all karaoke tracks played at commercial shows in the United States. (Still!)

Almost all of those tracks (90%+) are played from pirated sources--sources from which there was no "sale" that accrued to our benefit. These people are paying nothing and using our product anyway.

When we go into a market and start suing people for that activity, all of a sudden, we get a bunch of license applications from people who were using our product already and want to keep using it.

If we did not sue for infringement, these people would continue to use that pirated material. It is only the real threat of a lawsuit that forces people to PAY FOR WHAT THEY ARE USING.

It doesn't seem to matter what the price is, because every price is higher than FREE. If we don't sue, the price is FREE. When we threaten to sue, the freeloaders decide that paying the relatively small amount of money we charge is better than ending up owing us thousands of dollars.

It's not a lack of talent or intelligence. It's the fact that people don't want to pay for what they can get for free. It is only by removing the "free" option that people will pay.



Karaoke venues that can't afford to pay for, or that refuse to pay for, legal karaoke do not deserve to have karaoke. When a venue says "we can't have karaoke because of all the legal problems," what they are saying is, "Because we can't be bothered to hire legal karaoke hosts, we'd rather just not have karaoke."

And that's 100% fine by us. It is extremely easy to hire a legal operator. It is also extremely easy to pay for licensing so that you don't have to worry about whether your operator is legal. If you can't do one of those things, don't have karaoke.



"I don't want PEP to fold. I just don't want it to do anything that would allow it to keep from folding."



We are on track to file more lawsuits this year than in any previous year. The number of lawsuits has not declined; it's increased. So, does that mean it's not time to "rethink this whole legal process"?

You are making a hasty generalization Jim as far has people will pay. I know one host who will never pay you one red cent.

Guess who?

If I understand your word hash correctly...no, I'm making a generalization that has been consistently borne out by 7+ years of personal experience. It is the opposite of hasty in every context other than geological.



I'm sure there are many hosts who won't pay us. As long as they don't use our product, we don't have a problem with that.

WOW!!! An analogy that actually sounds good.

[quote="JimHarrington"
We are on track to file more lawsuits this year than in any previous year. The number of lawsuits has not declined; it's increased. So, does that mean it's not time to "rethink this whole legal process"?[/quote]
really?....

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Paradigm Karaoke, The New Standard.......Shift Happens

Uhhhh... A little re-wording here would be appreciated.

really?....[/quote]


How many of those lawsuits are you filing in California Jim? Thanks for admitting that suits do drive sales, that it is the primary way you make a living now. PEP is not a producer of a product, it is a blast from the past.

I worded it precisely as I meant it.

Even original disc users have "paid us" for what they are using in the sense that they bought the original materials they used.

How many of those lawsuits are you filing in California Jim? Thanks for admitting that suits do drive sales, that it is the primary way you make a living now. PEP is not a producer of a product, it is a blast from the past.[/quote]

No one could possibly be this slow.

No one could possibly be this slow.[/quote]


True I'm no fancy high priced lawyer like you Jim, chasing the PEP ambulance suits, but I do know what is right and what is wrong. Come to think of it judge Wright in California knew what was right and dismissed all of your frivolous lawsuits didn't he? At least the one's where the hosts didn't settle out of court, bad call on their part.