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 Post subject: Re: BMI
PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 3:13 pm 
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you feel these people
http://phoenix.craigslist.org/nph/emd/3983724385.html
http://lasvegas.craigslist.org/sys/3937148953.html
http://lasvegas.craigslist.org/ele/3911927297.html
can not pay the money, but the $75.00 a night KJ can?

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 Post subject: Re: BMI
PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 3:39 pm 
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Paradigm Karaoke wrote:


The $75 a night KJ who's been operating as a pirate can become a $100 or $125 a night legal operator who can pay us $200-$300 a month for a period of years.

The guy who sells a $350 pirate hard drive three times a month is probably spending every penny of that but has no legal business he can continue after being busted.


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 Post subject: Re: BMI
PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 4:08 pm 
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And there it is............"suits drive sales.". It has nothing to do with getting rid of pirates. It's just their way of getting customers. How sad, and what a despicable tactic.

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 Post subject: Re: BMI
PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 4:10 pm 
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HarringtonLaw wrote:
Paradigm Karaoke wrote:


The $75 a night KJ who's been operating as a pirate can become a $100 or $125 a night legal operator who can pay us $200-$300 a month for a period of years.

The guy who sells a $350 pirate hard drive three times a month is probably spending every penny of that but has no legal business he can continue after being busted.

I don't understand how a $75 per night KJ is magically transformed into a $125 KJ through a lawsuit.
I do understand though, how a $350 hard drive seller put out of business through a lawsuit would leave fewer $75 a night KJs to sue.

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 Post subject: Re: BMI
PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 4:14 pm 
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Smoothedge69 wrote:
And there it is............"suits drive sales.". It has nothing to do with getting rid of pirates. It's just their way of getting customers. How sad, and what a despicable tactic.


Yes, it's just supremely horrible that we use our legal rights to encourage people who steal from us to buy from us instead.

We should definitely just let them keep stealing, because giving people an opportunity to do the right thing, to help themselves and help us out at the same time--that's practically Hitlerian in its implications.

We should instead gather all the pirates into a great big pile, light them on fire, and jump on for good measure.

I don't know why I didn't think of it before.


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 Post subject: Re: BMI
PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 4:16 pm 
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earthling12357 wrote:
HarringtonLaw wrote:
Paradigm Karaoke wrote:


The $75 a night KJ who's been operating as a pirate can become a $100 or $125 a night legal operator who can pay us $200-$300 a month for a period of years.

The guy who sells a $350 pirate hard drive three times a month is probably spending every penny of that but has no legal business he can continue after being busted.

I don't understand how a $75 per night KJ is magically transformed into a $125 KJ through a lawsuit.
I do understand though, how a $350 hard drive seller put out of business through a lawsuit would leave fewer $75 a night KJs to sue.

I think what he is saying is that the $75 a night KJ can magically force the venue he works at to pay him more because now he has LEGAL Sound Choice material, rather than stolen SC material. Must be some slight of hand or something. Maybe having the GEM series also gives you the ability to use the Jedi Mind Trick on people.

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 Post subject: Re: BMI
PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 4:37 pm 
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earthling12357 wrote:
I don't understand how a $75 per night KJ is magically transformed into a $125 KJ through a lawsuit.


Because we sue venues, too. Venues that expect to get legal karaoke for $75 a night will find that they can't. Venues that don't care whether they get legal karaoke or not will find that to be a very expensive lack of preference.

earthling12357 wrote:
I do understand though, how a $350 hard drive seller put out of business through a lawsuit would leave fewer $75 a night KJs to sue.


With all due respect, that's a naive point of view. There are many sources of pirate karaoke for KJs to choose from. The absence of one $350 hard drive seller isn't going to stop pirate KJs from getting the material they need.


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 Post subject: Re: BMI
PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 5:02 pm 
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HarringtonLaw wrote:

Because we sue venues, too. Venues that expect to get legal karaoke for $75 a night will find that they can't. Venues that don't care whether they get legal karaoke or not will find that to be a very expensive lack of preference.


James THAT has to be the MOST ridiculous thing you have said. I don't have ONE single pirated song on my system, and I play your client's stuff from the original discs. When I got the gig I am currently at the owner only offered $75. I lowered my price to compromise with her, just to get my name out there and get known outside of just doing fill ins for my friend. She refuses to pay more than $100 for Karaoke. I could have GEMS coming out my butt, and she wouldn't pay a dime more. That is a popular though process around here, ESPECIALLY since the recession. Don't kid yourself that legal KJs all over the place are making the big bucks. Why not ask around this board. Why not ask some of the certified hosts on this board what SC has done for them? Yeah, your method may have helped some, but it has also HURT some. But you keep on with your dreams of being the White Knight.

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 Post subject: Re: BMI
PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 6:30 pm 
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Unfortunately, kj's shot themselves in the foot. Lowballers (not all but mostly pirates) continue taking next to nothing wages, that is all the market will bear. If all kj's stopped taking pay lower than a set amount, then prices would go back up, but that too will never happen. I pay my hosts $75 a night just to show up and run the show but kj's with their own equipment with their own expenses I cannot see how they can make any kind of living or even money at all on that kind of a wage after all expenses taken into account.

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 Post subject: Re: BMI
PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 6:48 pm 
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Smoothedge69 wrote:
James THAT has to be the MOST ridiculous thing you have said. I don't have ONE single pirated song on my system, and I play your client's stuff from the original discs. When I got the gig I am currently at the owner only offered $75. I lowered my price to compromise with her, just to get my name out there and get known outside of just doing fill ins for my friend. She refuses to pay more than $100 for Karaoke. I could have GEMS coming out my butt, and she wouldn't pay a dime more. That is a popular though process around here, ESPECIALLY since the recession. Don't kid yourself that legal KJs all over the place are making the big bucks. Why not ask around this board. Why not ask some of the certified hosts on this board what SC has done for them? Yeah, your method may have helped some, but it has also HURT some. But you keep on with your dreams of being the White Knight.


You can afford to choose to work for $75 a night because you lack the investment in music that would force you to work for more or leave the business if you couldn't find it. That's fine--that's how you choose to compete. But our lawsuits are focused primarily on people who choose to compete unfairly by stealing the benefits of a larger investment in music without actually having to put the money in.

Look at it this way: On any given night, in a given area, there is a number of persons (call that set A) who will patronize bars and restaurants. People who want to sing and/or hear karaoke on that night (call that set B) know how to find it, and that number is a subset of set A. The members of set A will spend a specific amount of money while being entertained. The bars' goal is to capture as much of that money as possible, so they select their hours, the food and drinks they serve, the atmosphere of the venue, and the entertainment according to what they believe will attract the most number of dollars, net of costs.

For entertainment, they have a lot of options: DJ, live music, karaoke, trivia, pool, bar games, sports TV, to name a few. Most places will have some mix of those. They all have costs associated with them. Live music is more expensive than karaoke. Trivia is more expensive than bar games. Pool requires a big initial investment but tends to run itself. They also have benefits associated with them--each one is likely to attract some subset of set A.

Let's say you're a bar owner. When your KJ has access to pirated content, that KJ can afford to work for less and make the same money, so your cost is lower. That improves the return on your investment, but at the expense of the rights holders who created that music. Suddenly your KJ gets popped for piracy and needs an extra $200-$300 a month just to stay even. That makes karaoke a less attractive option, because maybe you can get a better return on your investment by switching to trivia.

But switching to trivia won't help you bring in people from set B, so you've got to factor that in. When you consider that most successful bars are dependent upon regulars to survive, suddenly telling your Thursday night crowd that they won't be able to sing anymore might throw a monkey wrench into the works.

Piracy makes karaoke a more attractive proposition to bar owners than it economically should be, which means that we have oversupply. If a bar drops karaoke, those patrons who are set B people will find somewhere else to drink...which means that their new venue will see its return on investment improve, so that the new venue can afford to pay more. Some KJs will have to leave the business, but that's OK, because you're on record as wanting us to sue the pirates out of existence. This arrangement just lets the market do that work instead of having Sound Choice pick winners and losers.

Piracy is what economists refer to as an unpriced negative externality--it shovels some of the burden of an economic activity onto other people or onto the public generally. Our lawsuits force that negative externality to be internalized to the actor, bringing their cost of doing business into line with the true overall cost of that business.


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 Post subject: Re: BMI
PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 7:17 pm 
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Smoothedge AND others.......

A venue will ONLY pay you what you can prove you are worth...and you have to know yourself what you are worth first. This is a very important lesson for every KJ to learn....
We have legal hosts around here that feel they can not justify half our rate and say the bars laugh at them if they ask for more......One has learned recently that he can get his rate and doesnt need the dive type bars that would laugh at higher rates....they were more trouble than they were worth and never last......He is doing so much better now and was sorry it took him so long to realize what I was saying. 3 good paying solid jobs is better than 6 dives any week :shock:


IT TOOK YEARS OF PIRACY AND UNDERCUTTING TO TRAIN VENUES TO EXPECT $75 SHOWS...IT WILL TAKE YEARS TO RETRAIN THEM TO DECENT RATES.

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 Post subject: Re: BMI
PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 7:27 pm 
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HarringtonLaw wrote:

You can afford to choose to work for $75 a night because you lack the investment in music that would force you to work for more or leave the business if you couldn't find it. That's fine--that's how you choose to compete. But our lawsuits are focused primarily on people who choose to compete unfairly by stealing the benefits of a larger investment in music without actually having to put the money in.


That's not true. How do I lack the investment in music? Granted, I don't have 20,000 songs yet, but I buy new songs every week. I am spending about a quarter of what I make on music every month. I know that will ease up as I get more songs, but then I will focus in different areas. I only took the gig at $100 to get my name out there, and to get known. I really CAN'T afford to get paid so low. Thankfully, I have gotten a few parties and a wedding out of it. Plus I still do my fill in shows.

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 Post subject: Re: BMI
PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 7:42 pm 
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kjathena wrote:
Smoothedge AND others.......

A venue will ONLY pay you what you can prove you are worth...and you have to know yourself what you are worth first. This is a very important lesson for every KJ to learn....
We have legal hosts around here that feel they can not justify half our rate and say the bars laugh at them if they ask for more......One has learned recently that he can get his rate and doesnt need the dive type bars that would laugh at higher rates....they were more trouble than they were worth and never last......He is doing so much better now and was sorry it took him so long to realize what I was saying. 3 good paying solid jobs is better than 6 dives any week :shock:


IT TOOK YEARS OF PIRACY AND UNDERCUTTING TO TRAIN VENUES TO EXPECT $75 SHOWS...IT WILL TAKE YEARS TO RETRAIN THEM TO DECENT RATES.


This place got used to paying $75 because their last guy only charged that much. I know the last guy. He wasn't a pirate, he had all original discs, but he was old, semi-retired, and just did the gig because he enjoyed it. Now he does a gig next door at a restaurant on Thursdays.

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 Post subject: Re: BMI
PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 8:03 pm 
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Smooth, unfortunately because you took a $75 gig, when you try to get other shows, they will only offer $75. You are lowballing yourself out of business.

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 Post subject: Re: BMI
PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 8:26 pm 
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timberlea wrote:
Smooth, unfortunately because you took a $75 gig, when you try to get other shows, they will only offer $75. You are lowballing yourself out of business.

I took it for $100. She offered $75, I told her no. I dropped to $125, and settled for $100. I told her $150 for weeknight, $200 for weekend, (basically meaning Saturday or Sunday).

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 Post subject: Re: BMI
PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 8:28 pm 
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HarringtonLaw wrote:
Paradigm Karaoke wrote:


The $75 a night KJ who's been operating as a pirate can become a $100 or $125 a night legal operator who can pay us $200-$300 a month for a period of years.

The guy who sells a $350 pirate hard drive three times a month is probably spending every penny of that but has no legal business he can continue after being busted.


James......that hard drive seller is feeding consumers that might otherwise buy product from you as well.

This is the problem I have with Sound Choice tactics. Sue a pirate KJ, give them the best music library in the business, and let him continue to compete more effectively against hardworking KJ's. That sucks.

If you sued and put a 1/2 dozen in my area out of business, I could buy GEM's from you too you know. Just not at the premium you make the infringers pay. And I could expand my business, and pay taxes, and hire people that also pay taxes. Instead, you insist on keeping the bad guys in business. The ones that likely cut corners everywhere else and prevent people like me from growing.

Everyday I realize more and more how Sound Choice doesn't really care about the legitimate KJ. People like me can do more for your business than KJ's you have sued and settled with.

Your company is very close to losing an advocate.

-Chris

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 Post subject: Re: BMI
PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2013 4:14 am 
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chrisavis wrote:
Everyday I realize more and more how Sound Choice doesn't really care about the legitimate KJ. People like me can do more for your business than KJ's you have sued and settled with.

Your company is very close to losing an advocate.

-Chris

welcome.....i have dusted off a seat for you.
they never have cared, and have stated as such. this is ONLY about selling GEM's, nothing more.

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 Post subject: Re: BMI
PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2013 4:26 am 
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HarringtonLaw wrote:

The guy who sells a $350 pirate hard drive three times a month is probably spending every penny of that but has no legal business he can continue after being busted.


There are other avenues than simply "suing" this is both a civil and criminal activity and law enforcement agencies have units that pursue this stuff, correct?


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 Post subject: Re: BMI
PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2013 4:51 am 
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Hmmmm..... go tell your local police that a KJ up the road is using illegal karaoke and see how fast they get there to arrest him. You'll be able to time them using a calendar, but I'm betting the laughter will drown out the next words you try to say. Don't be surprised if they don't go grab him and take him to jail.

SC will never bring criminal charges because they can't prove the tracks were obtained by illegal methods, nor do they want too. Nobody is required to save receipts for things they buy, especially for years. Harrington just clarified it for you, they want customers, not the elimination of piracy. Pirates = Customers.


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 Post subject: Re: BMI
PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2013 4:55 am 
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The conversation was about HD sellers, not KJs. And, yes, there are divisions that handle that sort of thing. An ex-baseball player got busted for this sort of thin last year and I am sure he's serving time right now for it.


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