Karaoke Forums

Because there was no reason why anyone in this business didn't seeit coming - yet so many didn't.
Because up until SC's apparently over-publicized actions stomping around in publisher territory, the publishers were just not all that concerned with the relatively small karaoke production industry. Yes, they sued when neccesary, but really didn't concern themselves with the overall business of our industry.

They are NOW in the midst of radical policy changes.

Production of new music is NOW either being limited or diminished.

Import from other top quality mfrs. has NOW been limited, specifically due - in my opinion, of course, but no other explaination matches - to SC's actions with the GEM series. This is further shrinking the music vendor pool.

So, though I have several opinions on the subject, I leave it to you folks guess what might come next.

_________________
"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

[quote="earthling12357"
That makes no sense.
This crazy theory you are promoting appears to be a bizarre form of wishful thinking on your part.
I would have thought that someone who spent so many years in the karaoke business would not be so eager to see it's demise.

Karaoke is a multi-billion dollar industry that generates a significant income for the publishers; it is doubtful that they will pursue activities that would diminish that income stream. Those who consistently dodge owed payment to the publishers are the only ones that the publishers are going to try to litigate out of business.[/quote]

Why is it such a crazy theory? It is no more bizarre than no fly lists or any of the other things that have had an impact on the industry. Even though I have spent many years in the business, I'm not so full of myself to think that other powers would not hold KJ hosting in such high esteem. Even though the publishers might see some income stream, I'm not sure they are seeing what they should truly be getting. The only one's that seem to be dodging the payment to the publishers are the karaoke manus, the publishers so far have not gone after the hosts. That is a situation that could change at anytime. I hope you include in the list of dodgers the legal process manus that have already been sued by the publishers, these are the companies that need to be litigated out of business first. The larger the company the more likely they will be sued by the publishers that is why small fry single rig operators in my opinion will be at the bottom of the food chain. Size does matter.

I think it was you that put forth the idea that no host has been operating fully legally all this time. That it would be next to impossible for a host to obtain the proper permission from the right's holders to perform in public. That means that any karaoke service business could be sued by the right holders at anytime, right?

Lone Ranger,
While you are trying to taunt those with whom you hold disagreements, the tone of your posts makes it appear as though you take glee from the troubles of our industry.

Indeed I did put forth the idea that we are all using tracks that are lacking in complete and proper licensing. The purpose of that was to point out that we might consider scrutinizing our own libraries as we are scrutinizing each others'.

It seems to me the war on piracy is not one that KJs are equipped to fight beyond just doing a better job than the pirate. When it comes to music acquisition, the playing field is nearly level these days. Yes, there are those of us who spent many thousands of dollars in years past to build a library, but these days, huge upfront and ongoing expenditures in music are not required to enter the business. Back when the cost of music was higher, so was the pay for a gig. Yes, the influx of mass quantities of pirates watered down the average pay for a gig, but it would be watered down by now anyway through the lower cost of the music that makes it far easier now for anyone to enter the business. The difference maker in pay now is the quality of performance, rather than possession of inventory. If you are any good, the pirates just make you look better.

I have made no secret of my opinion of the tactics of the karaoke producers who have decided that using twists and technicalities of law could be more profitable for them than producing karaoke. I dislike it. That doesn’t mean I don’t think there are a ton of KJs out there that need to be litigated out of business; I absolutely think there are and I would be pleased to see it happen.

I’m disappointed that litigating pirates out of business was never the plan, yet so many Kjs have bought into the idea that the litigation of their competition by a third party is going to help them and the industry as a whole. It will not. It may help them to achieve their own selfish goals in their local markets on the short term, but as they help the litigators burn out venues from karaoke due to the related legal hassles, I believe the industry as a whole will suffer at their hands.

I also believe that wholesale trolling for settlements has put a black eye on the industry, and that using backdoor technicalities to advance a settlement trolling scheme has aggravated some publishers to the point that they are now ready to use their own technicalities of law in a similar manner to put the squeeze on their own downstream customers. The resulting effect has been a diminishing of available karaoke tracks for every karaoke enthusiast in this country.

In my opinion, the solution to piracy will not be found by starting from the bottom of the piracy chain. It will only be found by eliminating the piracy, manipulation of law, and mismanagement from the top down. There are solutions, but if applying solutions threaten to interrupt the income stream of those on the top of the ladder, we will never see them applied.
This is why we as Kjs, need to find a way to start suing our singers, because in our society, it all must flow downstream.

_________________
KNOW THYSELF

I am on board with almost everything in your post Earth..

I still can not make a connection between the latest Universal versus DT and your and Joe's assumption that a sleeping giant has been awakened by SC suits.

I get that Right's holders have made it next to impossible to produce karaoke legally in the US. It's been that way from day one.
I get that karaoke manufacturers have attempted to skirt their obligations. It's been that way from day one.
I get that other countries have made it easier to produce karaoke. Good for them.
I get that Right''s holders do not think those imports are valid in the US. I am sure they have felt that way since the importing started. We still import so it isn't like I've seen any signs of sleeping giants killing that off. They may still try.....
But I do not see how the SC suits have driven ANY of this. Do we have any evidence or proof that it has other that "I told you so"? I'll certainly agree that the giants probably do not care for the tactics but do we have ANYTHING at all that ties the latest moves to the SC suits? Is there anything at all?

Great post, by the way!!

Two good posts. I think that if every karaoke producer in the U.S. goes away, karaoke will still be produced in other countries for U.S. use. You can say it's not LEGAL to use it all you want to but it will happen and KJs will use it in commercial shows and their is no way that will ever be policed by anybody. One more time, law enforcement does not CARE about karaoke tracks. It's not like Sunfly is going to come over here and start suing the people who are buying their tracks. So foreign tracks will soon become common, plastic disks will disappear, do-it-yourself options will grow and pirating tracks will continue to happen, it's the new normal, so as earthling said, you'd better learn to compete with a better show if you're going to stay in business.

I don't see where you get the glee aspect of what I have written? I have taken very seriously what you have posted and if it is true, then some hosts are in a very exposed position, and the future of the entire karaoke public venue is in doubt. I think the implications of what you have posted run deeper than mere scrutinizing of one's own library. Since my library is no longer used in public it is my private one and is not subject to investigation, however, all public performing karaoke service business's can be investigated. Even the most die hard cheerleader is not going to voluntarily delete material from their libraries unless either they are confronted by a suit themselves, or if eventually some sort of third party clearinghouse is established that all hosts recognize. Without some type of central agency to settle all of the legal questions concerning public karaoke performances, the individual is exposed to possible legal suits from any number of rights holders. Making it nearly impossible to do any long term planning as long there is a possibility down the road they could be slapped with a large civil lawsuit.

So now the hosts are going to start suing our singers? You mean the patrons that support your shows and in many cases are personal friends? I can see a host doing that, it would be so good for drawing a crowd and keeping the customers satisfied, I wonder why I didn't think of it while I was hosting. You are right in a way if a solution is found it will come from the top down, just like this country is run for the benefit of rich few and not for the disadvantaged masses. I see sort of a karaoke mini feudal state being set up. The holders of the rights the publishers will be the lords, below them will be the manus their bailiffs and constables, and the host serf working the karaoke service fields. The bottom will pay the middle men who in turn will pay the lords, a real top down solution, with the money going up the chain not down it. Sort of like trickle down in reverse.

Since the opening of the world market and the digital age, all copyright and even trademark owners have been trying to re-define existing laws to protect their products from those made more cheaply and with less regulation in other countries. There have been court cases over everything from toothpaste to watches to textbooks. It was happening before SC ever brought a suit.

The only influence SC might have had is we know the US manus felt that imports were unfair competition. For all we know the manus were working with the publishers on this at the same time they were also suing each other.

I also agree that imports will become important but we have seen Zoom and Selectatrack block US IPs or risk losing their licensing. Supposedly work is being done to make others follow suit. Where will people get their music if KV and Tri are also blocked?

Under the First Sale Doctrine a person could have someone in the UK buy discs and resell to them but the UK is heading toward all download which might make things a bit more problematic. I fear I will be in a situation of either having to become or compete with a"grey area pirate" who will figure out ways to skirt the laws to buy music.

While current hits have not been the bulk of what people want to sing, as younger people enter into our audiences I do find that they want "their" music and they request current songs. They are also a bit impatient with explanations of why the song isn't available here or why it will take a while to get it.

The other complication is that music and art and writing are more than just a "product" to people. So in a way being cut off from it feels like censorship and people will resist that. I do think that an artist has a right to control their work yet still think of all of those kids in Russia putting Beatles music on Xray film and selling it secretly. It was said to be a great force in their longing for freedom.

It is ironic that the US has fallen behind in keeping up with safe distribution channels for IP in this one little area of karaoke. We will have to figure it out or the control the producers seek will be lost even more than it is now. And the losers will be the ones who are trying to be "legal."

I have a question for anyone that has rock solid information on the topic. Yes, Select a trac and Zoom blocked access to the US. Why? Was it due to publishers pressing them to do it or was it an agreement not to compete with someone like DT? I figured it was the latter as not all channels closed down. It is interesting that we can still get the content from Zoom and Select a track (Sunfly, etc) from the other sources.

Gee I post a one liner and get pages of response from it.

It was said by someone that when the "Sleeping Giants" (the music owners/writers/etc.) finally woke up that they would put an end to the Karaoke Manus producing their product because they would no longer grant licenses for it.

Universal has woken up and others are sure to follow. They will finally see Karaoke is a sideline that they just might want to get into due to the fact that they already own and have the original sound tracks and all they have to do is add the lyrics to it.

_________________
I like everyone when I first meet them. If you don't like me that's not my problem it's YOURS!
A stranger is a friend you haven't met yet

Lone Wolf, Universal is already doing that although I don't know how far they would want to take it. But they do it through both the Disney soundtracks and Taylor Swift plus they have a series of karaoke games for Wii. They have also made agreements to stream content through The Karaoke Channel and a station in the UK.

It seems that blocking IP addresses from buying Zoom or Sunfly tracks just pushes more people to the dark side, where they just download them for FREE.

I've not been one to warn of "Sleeping Giants" waking. I don't think they have ever been sleeping. These lawsuits from the Publishers have been going on for a very long time. That's how a lot of the unlicensed works end up becoming licensed. From the tone of the e-mail trail in this suit, it seems to me the Publisher is starting to get annoyed with needing to sue infringers for a judgment or settlement and then have to do it again to collect on the judgment or settlement.


This suit has nothing to do with SC. However, SC was not the only one using the trademark suit method. Charbuster, Digitrax, Worldwide Digital, and Piracy Recovery have all used the same tactic and have current pending litigation (in some of which they have partnered with SC).
I think rather than bragging to UMPG that they are suing KJ pirates for their own gain, they should be trying to get Universal and other publishers to join them as Co-Plaintiffs to put the pirates out of business. That would be the scary news that would put a big dent in KJ piracy, and it wouldn't have to be done through a trademark suit. Of course, it wouldn't bring Digitrax a bunch of settlement subscribers who could go on using the rest of their pirate library.

_________________
KNOW THYSELF

I don't believe that. I think those who are trying to do the right thing by finding avenues to purchase their music are unlikely to join the "dark side." Rather, they are more likely to find an audience that doesn't care about new music, or just leave the business for lack of ability to do it right and let the pirates take over.

_________________
KNOW THYSELF

I wholeheartedly agree.
I wonder if a case could be made in court that the copyright laws allowing this segregation of karaoke music are unconstitutional?

_________________
KNOW THYSELF

If you can't beat 'em. Join 'em.

It's yours and others p!$$ poor attitude thinking everything on the net should be free that is causing all the problems. It's not as if you found money or diamonds on the street by accident. Downloading is premeditated and stealing, no matter how you try to rationalize it. Maybe people should go to your house and steal from you and see how you feel about it.

_________________
You can be strange but not a stranger

Uhhh.... When did Bruce ever say he downloaded music for free???????????? All I recall him saying was that he purchased his music from those recognized sites (such as ITunes), and then created his own lyric swipes for the music tracks he sings from.

He says it should be free all the time. His own words. Whether he actually does or not, he definitely has the attitude.

_________________
You can be strange but not a stranger

and Cueball spends his money at karaoke shows that are run by pirates so in Chris' eyes he's just as bad as the pirates. He has that same live and let live attitude that I have.Everything shouldn't be FREE ON THE INTERNET.

IT ALREADY IS AND THAT SEEMS TO BE THE ONLY THING THAT YOU CHEER LEADERS CARE ABOUT. How much time did you guys spend on investigating the missing Malaysian jet today? How many posts did you make on those forums?

You guys are just as rabid and repetitive about karaoke piracy as Chip ever was about Sound Choice's behavior, yet you guys never get banned no matter how many people are tired of reading your drivel. Everyone of your posts can be broken down to one thing.

Boo Hoo Hoo. Woe is me! It;s not fair!

We get it! and most of us don't care.

incorrect...
i buy Zoom & Sunfly tracks... buy is the key word, from authorized resellers of Zoom & Sunfly Tracks...
does that mean i expect everything online to be free?:
How is my buying and paying for tracks from Sunfly or Zoom premeditated stealing?

_________________
Paradigm Karaoke, The New Standard.......Shift Happens