Karaoke Forums

By that you mean they found a way around trademark? or using their own marks in place?

I will answer your question bluntly, and apologize to those KJs whom I may offend in advance:

ANY KJ who paid SC a settlement is uneducated- unfortunately for us, this includes the dam track thieves (real pirates). SC "forces" through intimidation, as posted by many here, and as seen in the suits and letters, both to the KJ and their venues. If a KJ has not properly educated him/herself in all aspects of the business, they believe what they read to be fact, rather than "designed to intimidate" document that it is.

Due to licensing problems of their own, almost non-existent "investigative" policies, and other problems, they simply have no case- period.

To go after pirates, the ONLY real ammunition is to sue AND criminally charge for PIRACY- ( theft of tracks without payment) which the karaoke production companies are not equipped to do.

Unfortunately, this must be done by the owners/publishers.

I say "unfortunately" for two reasons:

1) People like Sony just don't care about the teeny bit of the music market that karaoke represents. Also, they kind of like us because we help popularize their music.

2) If the publishers/owners actually DO get involved, we're all screwed- PC, Mfrs'. disc based, pirate, and "legal", because virtually no karaoke music is licensed for commercial use. Depending if they can prove hosting to be commercial use ( 50/50- lots of variables), pirates will get sued and charged, media shifters MAY have serious problems, and mfrs'. original disc guys like you and I - though not liable for any music licensing legalities like all the others- might still get hit with a Cease & Desist.

Not good for anyone...

While I do not offer the following as "proof", I ask you to consider:

If they had a case they would have gone through the process without allowing a settlement at least once in the last three years just to validate their position. Any attorney would have advised them to do so to strengthen future litigation.

Of the many dismissals, no one knows how many cases were settled, and how many SC backed out of when the defendants were willing to fight them in court.

Of the two best known "fighting defendants" ( Dan Dan and Ernie), SC managed to "screw up" the cases enough that one was dismissed, and one will probably be- Keeping them out of the court system. Ernie paid a tiny portion of a previously agreed to settlement, but it seems that SC reneged, and Ernie will pay no more.

The sad part is, if SC actually concentrated on PIRATES ( who steal expensive music, have an unfair pricing advantage, AND were actually the folks that ripped SC off), then they would deserve whatever happens.

Instead, SC is going causing problems for their OWN CUSTOMERS AND THEIR VENUES simply because they ripped to PC, even though, per published statement, Kurt said THAT WAS FINE with him until the early 2000s when he decided he could make money for his failing karaoke production company by changing his PERSONAL (nothing legally binding one way or the other) policies. So they work on Trademark Infringement. Good for them, but TI gives no unfair advantage to a KJ, and it does absolutely nothing for other KJs if a TI suit is filed.

Yes, we read the posts about how if you are "1:1" ( a phrase completely made up by SC) then they will dismiss any suit.

The question is, if they had done any investigating to begin with, why would there BE a suit? Also, They notify venues of their "findings" without any verification, thus possibly causing the loss of work for the KJ simply because the business wants no waves, even if there was no wrongdoing.

Athena, whom SC wrongfully accused based on the word of a competitor and with absolutely no investigation, will have her company name forever listed on the internet as one who was accused. The fact that she has reacted as she has amazes me to this day, though we a are friends and she has tried to explain it. I would have, as a damaged party, initiated a class action suit immediately. Athena feels, as many here do - for reasons completely unknown to me- that SC is fighting piracy ( which Kurt has already posted is NOT their priority). Go figure...

It is my personal opinion that they are already open to an extremely strong class action suit, which require only a damaged party to initiate. They could easily avail themselves of a contingincy lawyer who might see the breadth of the suit and work for a percentage. Again, that's my extremely humble personal opinion only....

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

Joe I feel the need to use to use only the pertinent portion of your quote.
" Athena, whom SC wrongfully accused based on the word of a competitor and with absolutely no investigation, (The investigation shows we had media shifted without prior written permission and our audits proved we were 1-1 will have her company name forever listed on the internet as one who was accused. The fact that she has reacted as she has amazes me to this day, though we a are friends and she has tried to explain it. I would have, as a damaged party, initiated a class action suit immediately. Athena feels, as many here do - for reasons completely unknown to me- that SC is fighting piracy ( which Kurt has already posted is NOT their priority). (SC and Kurt have posted that fighting piracy is not their ONLY priority....I have no problem with them trying to recover some of what has been stolen from them during this fightGo figure..."

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"Integrity is choosing your thoughts, words and actions based on your principles and values rather than for your personal gain."
Unknown
"if a man has integrity, nothing else matters, If a man has no integrity, nothing else matters."
Lee McGuffey

Joe, with all those generalizations you used, your response did not answer my question at all. I asked what YOUR PERSONAL EXPERIENCES were that you keep referring to. All you posted were YOUR PERSONAL INTERPRETATIONS of what you believe. Your experiences do NOT include Dan Dan or Ernie or even KJAthena (whom you have already relayed inaccurate information regarding what she went through (since she came back on to correct you)).

And this surprises you? Its just another episode of "Joe's Soapbox".

I've repeatedly knocked down your accusations with actual facts and case law. You keep repeating this accusation, and you refuse to back up what you say with evidence. At this point, why should anyone listen to you?



You're right--the karaoke production companies are not equipped to charge anyone criminally. That's reserved to government prosecutors, who must be convinced that a criminal law has been broken and that civil remedies are ineffective before they will undertake the long and expensive process of prosecuting someone criminally for this kind of behavior.

On several occasions in the past, SC has assisted with criminal prosecutions for criminal copyright and trademark infringement. It takes millions of dollars in damage by a single actor before the government will get involved to prosecute.



This is so far from being accurate that I don't know where to begin.



This illustrates nothing but your ignorance of the court system. By the way, in the first case I filed for SC, today the judge ordered the parties to suggest trial dates--which are to be at least six months from today. After we go to trial and win, whatever will you do, with your major criticism of our project knocked down?



I don't have a precise number of settlements. The number for the latter is 0.



The one that "probably will be"? That's the case that has been ordered for trial. So much for that theory. As for Ernie, as I have said before, his comeuppance is coming.

I am going to skip a bunch of this because I'm tired of repeating myself.



"On the word of a competitor" and "absolutely no investigation" are not accurate. As it turned out, Athena's operations were fully 1:1, and the only issue was the lack of permission. That was squared away and we're on the same side now.

Still waiting on you to explain how I can conduct a foolproof investigation to separate the pirates from the people who are 1:1 and only lack permission, without tipping off the pirate. Surely if you can invent such imaginative criticisms of SC, you can devise a system that will filter out all of the people you think we shouldn't be suing. The world is waiting for your wisdom.

woah, pull back a bit Harrington, the investigation question is still open.
take Darci Blackford.
she was on the same case with Red Onion and John Pavkovich.
apparently, it was investigated that Darci Blackford was running her karaoke business, Full Moon Session, at Red onion. when she was fired from there, John and Red Onion were dropped from the case.
however...............
Darci never ran at Red Onion, John Pavkovich did and still does (remember from earlier threads....thats the owners husband)
John is still running the same show at red onion with the same 140,00+ track drive and because somebody that never worked there is not working there now, they are dropped from the case.
no one ever saw Darci running her show at Red Onion.
No one saw John running his show at another venue (as was stated in the suit)
Darci did not get fired from Red Onion (Never worked there)
what kind of investigation is that?

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Paradigm Karaoke, The New Standard.......Shift Happens

A digital database will (mostly) outlast the discs that they were transferred from. There is no 100% way to weed out pirates vs legit, unless you are in the database, like i've said "It is the same copied databases"

I purchased one of the Pirated discs to take a peek to be sure... as stated in a prior post.... im done looking @ it now, and it IS the same database I have seen over and over again.... they all have one thing in common, and it's kinda a simple thing to catch as i tried last night@ the bowling alley.... IS A PIRATE 100% even the software...

What to look for?
1. Starting as a KJ With an extensive database.
almost EVERY starting KJ, unless in a company, will have a bare essentials type database. ask for songs that are hard to find or not part of bulk starter packages.

2. A KJ that knows little about the discs
(Ask the KJ for a song from a sc disc and one from a sf disc "damn what make is sf discs?") any KJ should be able to answer at least a few of the popular ones if they really buy the discs.... (i myself forget some of the off brands till i think about it)

3. The size of the venue
I hate to say it cause i've done some low end places. but nearly all my predassesors in those places were the cheesy "buy a 300$ hard drive and call yourself a kj" type.

?How to look?
Have a scout pose as a customer for a couple shows if needed. But one who has been to every karaoke joint in the world, throw in some butter(tips)&Sugar(complements) And you may well get a peek @ their files... or even an admission of guilt... (that does not stick but it let's you know you are in the right place)


By the way, that hard drive IS AS I SAID! a cheepo drive with a redundant database. For 300$ it had a well over starter's database for FAR CHEAPER than even the starter pack and it has a load from all mfgs. Sad thing is... this was far easier than i thought... i expected some shady guy, some shady place.... nope out in the open In front of everyone with cops sitting in the booth down the aisle... AS HE EXPLAINED HOW TO INSTALL IT!

If SC would like the drive... it would be easy to find me... and i'll hand it over to look through.. just dont fu*k with me about it! ... the only cornbread doing karaoke... im doing it to help everyone else out too! since yall love tampa so much...

I have already posted some personal experiences, including a host that settled here in NJ simply because the host's spouse was in public life, and the host didn't want any trouble.

Athena did add some pertinent facts, but these did not make my statements inaccurate. She was notified, her name out there on the internet, THEN audited.

What you're not getting is that the only real "evidence" SC ever finds is through the audit of someone that they ALREADY ACCUSED, not the other way around.

It's kind of of a moot point, because whenever someone here speaks of personal experience on EITHER side of the fence, someone else says it's BS. So be it.

2) You don't know if I have been in contact with Ernie or Dan, ( I have), and how much of that I take as personally.

I have also been in contact with several of those on "the other side", and have had several enjoyable, civil, and extremely infomational conversations with them. This applies to PMs as well. While I respect everyone's privacy, if nothing else I know that everything is not what it seems.

On the other hand, I have also had personal contact with local KJs who were REALLY pirates (track thieves) and learned much from that as well.

I also form my "beliefs" based on input from professionals in the field.

I generalize both for legal purposes on a public forum , and more importantly to protect the privacy of those I speak to.

While my friend Athena has been been gracious enough to grant me permission to mention that we are friends and speak on the phone, others have made it clear that they don't want me to mention it.

While I understand that all of this probably means nothing to you, it does to me- and I felt like venting....

Thanks for reading...

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

1) Don't know what you have knocked down with "facts and case law".

As for the" investigations" of SC, not only I, but others ( see above, as well as other threads) have given plenty of examples of what that really is. Plenty of "evidence".

BTW- looking forward to your response to Paradigm's post above in this regard.

Filings are not laws. They are only efforts to get a filer (plaintiff) something or some action that they hope for. Period. Legally meaningless until the suit is won or lost. Until you win through the full process in court with the defendant and ( hopefully) defense counsel present, nothing has been proven by law. Anything can happen in court, and you may even come out with a win somehow- but it hasn't happened yet. You have given no "evidence" that it will.

You ask why anyone should listen to me. I don't know. What I DO know is that while I merely state my opinions, YOU represent your client, SC, who has their own agenda, and the simple act of doing your job well would cause you to present information that would be biased toward your client. This is how it should be, but it is also what should keep folks from thinking that what you post is graven in stone as well.

To be clear, I do not discount all that you say, but merely add sources other than you to my store of information.


2) I state that the the owners/publishers have ultimate say over the use of their property.
You say I'm wrong. Care to elucidate in regard to usage in U.S. based karaoke shows?


3) Your statement "Still waiting for your wisdom" strikes me as possibly being insincere....

You have also asked- once again- what I would do if SC actually won a case in court. I will - once again- answer you, but will try to be more succinct.

If the case is won against an actual pirate utilizing expert defense counsel, and sets a precedent for fighting piracy, I will be as happy as you would, because a viable weapon against piracy would become available.

If, on the other hand, a case is won simply because some schlub tried to go into court without being prepared or fully equipped with proper information, then I would say "wait 'til the next one".

What will have to be proven in court is that:

1) SC has a right to damages due to the display of the trademark from a PC source. Keep in mind that this is a Trademark Infringement case- nothing to do with the theft of the track, merely that SC claims that the logo is a counterfeit because it isn't being displayed from the original media.

Whether or not the tracks were stolen is irrelevant to the case.


2) SC has a right to damages as described above, even though said logo may have been attached to the track without the permissions required of the owners/publishers, and shouldn't have been there in the first place.

I don't think it will fly, and you do- but I know that it hasn't happened in about 3 years.

I also know that it is much more profitable for SC to just skip it ( and all the time and money involved) and just move to the next KJ for a settlement.

_________________
"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

Hmmm... the "investigative techniques" certainly seem in question don't they?..... No wonder they would want to hide them away as a "privileged work product."

That's not my case, and not my investigation, so I don't have any firsthand knowledge of that case. SC does have other attorneys, who may have their own way of running things. The investigator who oversees that area is a licensed PI with decades of experience, so I'm going to rely on his investigation rather than secondhand information about what interested defendants may have said, but it is possible that the investigator made a mistake.

haha I had a PI in there last night! PI's dont drink... dont pay...and stick out like sore thumbs! Next time yall hireout in florida, send someone who is @ least intelligent enough not to stick out. Another dead giveaway is the offer he made for a free online database... AND was a customer for no reason with no friends with him, AND 100% targeted only me (or had a gay attraction to me)

THO i give him props he had me for 30-40 minutes.... he did know his karaoke, and somewhat knew about being a KJ...

Hire me ! Im up for some paid nights out! Plus it would make sence having a real KJ out handling the stuff that hurts legit KJ's pocket.

You have no first-hand knowledge, however you're going to rely on his investigation and not secondhand information – but that investigation could be a mistake?

(is the room spinning, or is it just me?)

Uh huh. This would be fine, except that when these particular cases came up on the forum a month or two ago you said the same thing, but added that you would check into them..

I would assume at this point that you couldn't find an answer that would not be beneficial for you to post?

BTW, since Paradigm did the installation for one of these places ( as stated in the older post), and also knows all of the parties personally, I do not take his information as "second-hand".

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

Unless the person was wearing a fedora and trenchcoat, they weren't real PIs. .

Of course people don't go in alone to karaoke and order a soft drink and talk karaoke to a host. That is so outside the norm of reality. Shake your head.

So why can't a PI have a drink, cops do when they're undercover. We've had singers coming in talking about online karaoke and HDs. We educate them on the legalities and say thank you but no thank you.

PI or paranoia? You choose.

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You can be strange but not a stranger

For the record, my investigators are authorized and encouraged to have a beer or two while investigating--and, if appropriate, to order food. Not enough alcohol to impair them, but enough that they don't stick out.

Are those my only two choices?

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My statements, opinions and conclusions are based on my own personal experiences, observations, research and/or just my own $.02. I'm not a "cheerleader", but that doesn't make me a Pirate.

Ok, or something else but yuo have to say what you think it is.

Jim, I guess people have forgotten that thing called an expense account. Not only have I had a drink or two during a surveillance but I've also gambled, using the client's money.

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You can be strange but not a stranger

If you gamble using the client's money, does the client get credited for the winnings?

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KNOW THYSELF