Karaoke Scene's Karaoke Forums :: So who enforces the 1-1 ratio besides SC & CB?

Just wondering how this is enforced or even discovered for other brands besides the big 2?

The answer to the OP is NO ONE.

Individual KJs can also enforce 1:1, but I don't know exactly how. Since the pirate gains an unfair business advantage, if a legitamate KJ can prove that they were adversely affected, they can definitely sue for damages.

Trouble is, good luck finding out if the KJ is really a pirate, though I imagine you can go through the discovery process in court and have the judge order the KJ to produce the disks and/or receipts.

Also, tax returns would also show depreciation/amortization of the music (at a minimum they should be able to show that they wrote it off as an expense).

A KJ that cannot produce this will almost certainly (IMO) be liable for damages.

TroyVnd27 wrote:

Sorry Troy, but they can't. You can't sue the guy the down the street because you have nothing to sue for and nothing of yours is damaged.

Let's say you mow lawns for a living. For example, you can't sue the neighbor to the left of you for stealing the lawn mower of the neighbor to the right of you... even though he's using it to compete with you, you can only report a crime because it wasn't your mower that was stolen.

Get too snoopy with the wrong guy (a legal KJ) and they can turn around and sue you for tort damages...

c. staley wrote:

TroyVnd27 wrote:

I am willing to bet you that you are absolutely wrong. Have you ever looked into gaining an unfair business advantage? You can most certainly sue anyone that breaks the law and takes a piece of the market share. If someone steals a lawn mower and then uses it to beat you in business, YES YOU CAN SUE, AND YOU WILL WIN! Problem is with the lawn mower guy (just like the karaoke guy), good luck finding an attorney to represent you on a contingency basis - like the pirate KJ or the lawn mower guy has any money to satisfy a judgement.

Well, there not being cheese down that tunnel does not mean that it still isn't possible to sue for gaining an unfair business advantage. The problem is that the pirate is probably broke, has little to no assets and collecting on a judgment would be virtually impossible.

The KJ could go after the bars, too - just as SC & CB are doing, but what KJ would be dumb enough to sue a bar owner for this?

Just wondering how this is enforced or even discovered for other brands besides the big 2? I am just getting into karaoke on my own after working with a partner who owned all the karaoke discs. There are several KJs in my area with hundreds of thousands of tracks (they say), some who were named in the recent SC lawsuits but seem to continue with multiple shows on the same nights, etc. Was there not a cease and desist order for these folks?

Author:	rickgood [ Fri Jun 03, 2011 5:33 pm ]
Post subject:	So who enforces the 1-1 ratio besides SC & CB?
Just wondering how this is enforced or even discovered for other brands besides the big 2? I am just getting into karaoke on my own after working with a partner who owned all the karaoke discs. There are several KJs in my area with hundreds of thousands of tracks (they say), some who were named in the recent SC lawsuits but seem to continue with multiple shows on the same nights, etc. Was there not a cease and desist order for these folks?

Author:	toqer [ Fri Jun 03, 2011 5:48 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: So who enforces the 1-1 ratio besides SC & CB?
In order for a C&D to happen, a judge has to order it. Simply filing a lawsuit does not mean you'll get one. You investigation has to be done by an accredited PI, or PI firm in most states, otherwise it'll get dismissed without prejudice (Which is what we saw happen recently) Without that, they cannot issue a C&D, nor can they seize assets for the discovery process of the case.

Author:	JoeChartreuse [ Fri Jun 03, 2011 11:47 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: So who enforces the 1-1 ratio besides SC & CB?
The answer to the OP is NO ONE. Yup, Stellar's name gets thrown into the mix now and again, but they have shown absolutely zero interest- probably because they watched SC and learned. Yes, they told told SC and CB "whatever", but they don't "enforce" on their own, nor does any authorized government agency, unless brought in by CB ( SC is in it for settlements and work on their own, though they did a couple of HD folks on the net and I think the FBI joined in- or rumor has it).

Author:	Lonman [ Sat Jun 04, 2011 1:47 am ]
Post subject:	Re: So who enforces the 1-1 ratio besides SC & CB?
rickgood wrote: Just wondering how this is enforced or even discovered for other brands besides the big 2? Pop Hits Monthly is the third in the US but they seem to do things a little differently.

Author:	toqer [ Sat Jun 04, 2011 12:43 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: So who enforces the 1-1 ratio besides SC & CB?
I thought MMOGroup (pocket songs) was 3rd, but they stay quiet about it. Some of my friends there have told me they have way more song licenses (about 22k) but only a fraction of them are used for karaoke. The bulk of their business is gaining licenses to sheet music and reselling that.

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So who enforces the 1-1 ratio besides SC & CB? https://mail.karaokescenemagazine.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=21694	Page 1 of 1

Author:	TroyVnd27 [ Sat Jun 04, 2011 2:55 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: So who enforces the 1-1 ratio besides SC & CB?
Individual KJs can also enforce 1:1, but I don't know exactly how. Since the pirate gains an unfair business advantage, if a legitamate KJ can prove that they were adversely affected, they can definitely sue for damages. Trouble is, good luck finding out if the KJ is really a pirate, though I imagine you can go through the discovery process in court and have the judge order the KJ to produce the disks and/or receipts. Also, tax returns would also show depreciation/amortization of the music (at a minimum they should be able to show that they wrote it off as an expense). A KJ that cannot produce this will almost certainly (IMO) be liable for damages.

Author:	rickgood [ Sat Jun 04, 2011 6:41 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: So who enforces the 1-1 ratio besides SC & CB?
JoeChartreuse wrote: The answer to the OP is NO ONE. Joe, Thanks for the concise and accurate answer. I have certainly competed for several years with other DJs who have more music and been successful, so it looks like it will be the same with karaoke. I have gotten good advice on karaoke track selection by reading this forum and I've got about 3100 tracks now with a good mix of old and new stuff by buying disc sets from acekaraoke.com, karaokewh.com and ebay. Also I set myself up on tricerasoft.com after reading their posts on here and downloaded several tracks from there. So what happens if the pirate KJs just delete the SC & CB from their hard drives and move on with the other stuff they have? Looks like to me that's what is happening now so I guess this is just that kind of business. I have noticed one of the operators here, Southeastern Entertainment, who was named in the recent SC sweep has taken their listing of shows off their web site. They were running multiple shows, multiple nights so hopefully they will be out of business and open up a few gigs for others. Thanks for the info from everybody. One other thing I have found - the bar owners just really don't seem to care here, maybe when some of them get made an example they will.

Author:	c. staley [ Sat Jun 04, 2011 9:47 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: So who enforces the 1-1 ratio besides SC & CB?
TroyVnd27 wrote: Individual KJs can also enforce 1:1, but I don't know exactly how. Since the pirate gains an unfair business advantage, if a legitamate KJ can prove that they were adversely affected, they can definitely sue for damages. Trouble is, good luck finding out if the KJ is really a pirate, though I imagine you can go through the discovery process in court and have the judge order the KJ to produce the disks and/or receipts. Also, tax returns would also show depreciation/amortization of the music (at a minimum they should be able to show that they wrote it off as an expense). A KJ that cannot produce this will almost certainly (IMO) be liable for damages. Sorry Troy, but they can't. You can't sue the guy the down the street because you have nothing to sue for and nothing of yours is damaged. Let's say you mow lawns for a living. For example, you can't sue the neighbor to the left of you for stealing the lawn mower of the neighbor to the right of you... even though he's using it to compete with you, you can only report a crime because it wasn't your mower that was stolen. Get too snoopy with the wrong guy (a legal KJ) and they can turn around and sue you for tort damages...

Author:	TroyVnd27 [ Sat Jun 04, 2011 11:16 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: So who enforces the 1-1 ratio besides SC & CB?
c. staley wrote: TroyVnd27 wrote: Individual KJs can also enforce 1:1, but I don't know exactly how. Since the pirate gains an unfair business advantage, if a legitamate KJ can prove that they were adversely affected, they can definitely sue for damages. Trouble is, good luck finding out if the KJ is really a pirate, though I imagine you can go through the discovery process in court and have the judge order the KJ to produce the disks and/or receipts. Also, tax returns would also show depreciation/amortization of the music (at a minimum they should be able to show that they wrote it off as an expense). A KJ that cannot produce this will almost certainly (IMO) be liable for damages. Sorry Troy, but they can't. You can't sue the guy the down the street because you have nothing to sue for and nothing of yours is damaged. Let's say you mow lawns for a living. For example, you can't sue the neighbor to the left of you for stealing the lawn mower of the neighbor to the right of you... even though he's using it to compete with you, you can only report a crime because it wasn't your mower that was stolen. Get too snoopy with the wrong guy (a legal KJ) and they can turn around and sue you for tort damages... I am willing to bet you that you are absolutely wrong. Have you ever looked into gaining an unfair business advantage? You can most certainly sue anyone that breaks the law and takes a piece of the market share. If someone steals a lawn mower and then uses it to beat you in business, YES YOU CAN SUE, AND YOU WILL WIN! Problem is with the lawn mower guy (just like the karaoke guy), good luck finding an attorney to represent you on a contingency basis - like the pirate KJ or the lawn mower guy has any money to satisfy a judgement.

Author:	TroyVnd27 [ Sat Jun 04, 2011 11:21 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: So who enforces the 1-1 ratio besides SC & CB?
Furthermore, we have bars owners here that have threatened each other with litigation for allowing smoking in their bars in lieu of the statewide smoking ban - same premise - gaining an upper hand in business that results from breaking a law.

Author:	birdofsong [ Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:54 am ]
Post subject:	Re: So who enforces the 1-1 ratio besides SC & CB?
TroyVnd27 wrote: c. staley wrote: TroyVnd27 wrote: Individual KJs can also enforce 1:1, but I don't know exactly how. Since the pirate gains an unfair business advantage, if a legitamate KJ can prove that they were adversely affected, they can definitely sue for damages. Trouble is, good luck finding out if the KJ is really a pirate, though I imagine you can go through the discovery process in court and have the judge order the KJ to produce the disks and/or receipts. Also, tax returns would also show depreciation/amortization of the music (at a minimum they should be able to show that they wrote it off as an expense). A KJ that cannot produce this will almost certainly (IMO) be liable for damages. Sorry Troy, but they can't. You can't sue the guy the down the street because you have nothing to sue for and nothing of yours is damaged. Let's say you mow lawns for a living. For example, you can't sue the neighbor to the left of you for stealing the lawn mower of the neighbor to the right of you... even though he's using it to compete with you, you can only report a crime because it wasn't your mower that was stolen. Get too snoopy with the wrong guy (a legal KJ) and they can turn around and sue you for tort damages... I am willing to bet you that you are absolutely wrong. Have you ever looked into gaining an unfair business advantage? You can most certainly sue anyone that breaks the law and takes a piece of the market share. If someone steals a lawn mower and then uses it to beat you in business, YES YOU CAN SUE, AND YOU WILL WIN! Problem is with the lawn mower guy (just like the karaoke guy), good luck finding an attorney to represent you on a contingency basis - like the pirate KJ or the lawn mower guy has any money to satisfy a judgement. So doesn't the fact that you can't find an attorney to take your case on a contingency basis pretty much clue you in to the fact that there really isn't any cheese down that tunnel??? Birdofsong

Author:	TroyVnd27 [ Sun Jun 05, 2011 6:40 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: So who enforces the 1-1 ratio besides SC & CB?
Well, there not being cheese down that tunnel does not mean that it still isn't possible to sue for gaining an unfair business advantage. The problem is that the pirate is probably broke, has little to no assets and collecting on a judgment would be virtually impossible. The KJ could go after the bars, too - just as SC & CB are doing, but what KJ would be dumb enough to sue a bar owner for this?

Author:	c. staley [ Sun Jun 05, 2011 6:51 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: So who enforces the 1-1 ratio besides SC & CB?
TroyVnd27 wrote: Well, there not being cheese down that tunnel does not mean that it still isn't possible to sue for gaining an unfair business advantage. The problem is that the pirate is probably broke, has little to no assets and collecting on a judgment would be virtually impossible. The KJ could go after the bars, too - just as SC & CB are doing, but what KJ would be dumb enough to sue a bar owner for this? Yes, you can sue anyone for anything including what you are saying here. However the only problem with that is in the event you were to sue someone, what would you outline as your "damages" and what would be your "remedy" (suggested judgment) as well as what could you expect afterward? Unless you're willing to do lots more "investigation" than some manufacturers are doing, a small "mistake" could result in a huge countersuit.

Author:	rumbolt [ Mon Jun 06, 2011 6:23 am ]
Post subject:	Re: So who enforces the 1-1 ratio besides SC & CB?
rickgood wrote: Just wondering how this is enforced or even discovered for other brands besides the big 2? I am just getting into karaoke on my own after working with a partner who owned all the karaoke discs. There are several KJs in my area with hundreds of thousands of tracks (they say), some who were named in the recent SC lawsuits but seem to continue with multiple shows on the same nights, etc. Was there not a cease and desist order for these folks? That is the $100,000,000 question. The manus haven't been sending out cease and desist orders (why I do not know) since that would at the least make the potential named aware that there was someting coming and they could have responded and kept their names out of suits if they felt they were operating legally. As for the multi-riggers, in some circles there is the belief that since they possibly own 1 original disc that it is their right to make and use as many copies of that disc for as many shows as they wish an since it usualy falls under civil jurisdiction and not crimminal it is harder if not sometimes impossible to enforce since the laws haven't been specific to our industry as of yet.

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