Karaoke Scene's Karaoke Forums
https://mail.karaokescenemagazine.net/forums/

Who's Responsibility is it... REALLY?
https://mail.karaokescenemagazine.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=25441		 Page 1 of 4
Author:  c. staley [ Thu Oct 04, 2012 10:34 am ]
Post subject:  Who's Responsibility is it... REALLY?
okay, so there's lots of debate on what is legal and what is not legal.

On one hand, the manufacturers are saying that if the KJ purchases a karaoke song whether it is on disc, or downloaded off of the Internet (remember – I said "purchase") then how far backwards should the KJ look to answer the question of whether or not it is legal?

Manufacturers will say in no uncertain terms that it is the KJ's responsibility to make sure that all tracks that they play in a karaoke club are in fact licensed for commercial use. (would this mean that a truck driver would have to find out if this steel used to manufacture his truck was not in fact, stolen?)

On the other hand, there are those KJ's who will simply say that they purchased the track/disk "in good faith" and therefore are no longer responsible for the licensing issues for which they have no access to anyway. This includes disks such as Sweet Georgia Brown, all hits, and a whole host of others.

The manufacturers may say; "just because you have a receipt from a downloaded track that came off the island of Bora-Bora, doesn't mean that you can actually play it in a club – because we sell that song on a disk and by purchasing it off of the Internet it may not be licensed and therefore is now unfair competition to us."

However, the manufacturer will say in the same breath –when asked for proof of licensing information that their tracks are in fact okay to play, usually the response is "trust us, the licensing information we have with publishers is confidential and really none of your business."

So which side of the fence do you reside on?

#1 "I purchased the material – in good faith – and it's not my responsibility to go up the chain back to the publishing source to verify licensing."

#2 "I only purchase materials from manufacturers who claim that their materials are in fact licensed."

Have I forgotten other options?
Author:  Micky [ Thu Oct 04, 2012 12:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Who's Responsibility is it... REALLY?
An easy one... common sense tells me #1
Author:  JoeChartreuse [ Thu Oct 04, 2012 1:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Who's Responsibility is it... REALLY?
Number one, for me, but only with the provision that it was original manufacturers' discs that were purchased.

While I would agree that ANY purchase made in good faith SHOULD be enough, I would keep my opinion on standby in regard to downloads, because nobody seems to be able to give a definitive answer on whether a file downloaded to a PC can be considered original manufacturer's product.

It's just my personal opinion that it is not. No need to debate it again, because we have no definitive answer here.
Author:  c. staley [ Thu Oct 04, 2012 1:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Who's Responsibility is it... REALLY?
JoeChartreuse wrote:
Number one, for me, but only with the provision that it was original manufacturers' discs that were purchased.

While I would agree that ANY purchase made in good faith SHOULD be enough, I would keep my opinion on standby in regard to downloads, because nobody seems to be able to give a definitive answer on whether a file downloaded to a PC can be considered original manufacturer's product.

It's just my personal opinion that it is not. No need to debate it again, because we have no definitive answer here.


There is no reason why this should be limited simply to compact discs. Haven't you noticed all the hubbub is about downloads, but you don't see any manufacturer trying to sue some karaoke hosts because they have an All Hits disc, or a music maestro disk, or radio starz disk or – heaven forbid – a Sweet Georgia Brown disc.

And from the looks of the latest lawsuit by universal against Tennessee production center, I don't see sound choice going after the people selling those discs with the Chartbuster trademark. (Of course, that would be like your right hand suing your left.)

So I don't believe that it's a matter of the media that contains the song. Whether it is a download, or a compact disc.
Author:  MrBoo [ Fri Oct 05, 2012 4:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Who's Responsibility is it... REALLY?
I do look at one and part of two, but also three.. If the downloads weren't "legal" in the US, then why are the sites not blocked here? Its easy enough to do. I think the answer is probably, no one really really knows. And I think its probably viewed along the lines of; if the download sites are covering the royalties (which is something I look for) and the venues are covering the performance royalties, why mess with it.
Author:  rickgood [ Fri Oct 05, 2012 5:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Who's Responsibility is it... REALLY?
Karaoke downloads used in commercial setting is the only "law" that's never been prosecuted. Seems the only folks who say it's illegal is a defunct manufacturer who doesn't offer downloads, and their minions.
Author:  c. staley [ Fri Oct 05, 2012 8:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Who's Responsibility is it... REALLY?
I have sent an email to a "seller" that is located outside the U.S. and is selling what appears to be Sunfly tracks, Music Maestro, All Hits, Chartbuster (logo removed) and even.... yes.... wait for it..... Sound Choice tracks with the logo removed and replaced.

I've asked them if the following:

Quote:
Please explain if the tracks you are selling on this site are legal for me to use in my karaoke clubs in the United States.

I see lots of SunFly and what appears to be Sound Choice (re-labeled as "*********") and Chartbuster and a few others.

I would like to know in advance if there are any legal permissions I would need to have to use these tracks commercially.


We will see if I get a response at all.
Author:  MrBoo [ Fri Oct 05, 2012 8:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Who's Responsibility is it... REALLY?
Chip,
Downloads, files (thumb or dvd) or hard drive?
Author:  JimHarrington [ Fri Oct 05, 2012 9:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Who's Responsibility is it... REALLY?
c. staley wrote:
I have sent an email to a "seller" that is located outside the U.S. and is selling what appears to be Sunfly tracks, Music Maestro, All Hits, Chartbuster (logo removed) and even.... yes.... wait for it..... Sound Choice tracks with the logo removed and replaced.

I've asked them if the following:

Quote:
Please explain if the tracks you are selling on this site are legal for me to use in my karaoke clubs in the United States.

I see lots of SunFly and what appears to be Sound Choice (re-labeled as "*********") and Chartbuster and a few others.

I would like to know in advance if there are any legal permissions I would need to have to use these tracks commercially.


We will see if I get a response at all.


Without the name of the party you're requesting information from, what you've posted above is as good as a lie because it cannot be verified.
Author:  Lone Wolf [ Fri Oct 05, 2012 9:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Who's Responsibility is it... REALLY?
HarringtonLaw wrote:
c. staley wrote:
I have sent an email to a "seller" that is located outside the U.S. and is selling what appears to be Sunfly tracks, Music Maestro, All Hits, Chartbuster (logo removed) and even.... yes.... wait for it..... Sound Choice tracks with the logo removed and replaced.

I've asked them if the following:

Quote:
Please explain if the tracks you are selling on this site are legal for me to use in my karaoke clubs in the United States.

I see lots of SunFly and what appears to be Sound Choice (re-labeled as "*********") and Chartbuster and a few others.

I would like to know in advance if there are any legal permissions I would need to have to use these tracks commercially.


We will see if I get a response at all.


Without the name of the party you're requesting information from, what you've posted above is as good as a lie because it cannot be verified.



OH BOY must we really go down that road AGAIN?
Author:  c. staley [ Fri Oct 05, 2012 9:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Who's Responsibility is it... REALLY?
HarringtonLaw wrote:
Without the name of the party you're requesting information from, what you've posted above is as good as a lie because it cannot be verified.


You MUST have brown eyes...

Tracks are available from this site for $1.99 (USD) Including Eddie Money's "Take Me Home Tonight" in an .avi format.

And since Harrington is being such a horses' rear end about all this, I'll let him find it on his own... so... Anyone that would like the link to this site, please PM me if you'd like the proof.... The only requirement is that you come back to this thread and state if it's real or not... Just so Harrington can finally get it through his head that I don't lie.

And it appears that there are over 4,000 tracks here that look "similar" to the fonts/colors/sizes that SC and Chartbuster uses....

But here is a REDACTED screenshot....

Harrington, you're on your own....

BTW, I did leave you a teensy clue in the pic below... you should be able to noodle it out... maybe.

Attachments:
File comment: Here's your screenshot..... good luck.
HarringButt.jpg
HarringButt.jpg [ 42.79 KiB | Viewed 21742 times ]
Author:  mightywiz [ Fri Oct 05, 2012 9:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Who's Responsibility is it... REALLY?
yeah that was easy to find..... lol

found some converted pioneer also.... but i did see voicechoice.. oops i mean sound choice and chartbusters formats..
Author:  c. staley [ Fri Oct 05, 2012 10:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Who's Responsibility is it... REALLY?
mightywiz wrote:
yeah that was easy to find..... lol

found some converted pioneer also.... but i did see voicechoice.. oops i mean sound choice and chartbusters formats..


Yeah.... I know... According to Harrington, I'm a liar.

So, back to the question:

If this offshore vendor replies and says something like "it's perfectly legal for you to use them in a club" then would that constitute "a purchase in good faith?"

After all, just because they're located overseas doesn't necessarily make them illegal per se. A perfect example of this would be Sunfly and Zoom – who sells both discs and downloadable formats.
Author:  MrBoo [ Fri Oct 05, 2012 10:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Who's Responsibility is it... REALLY?
Someone must have "proof"

From their forum with regard to copyright material:

Uploading copyrighted stuff
Again and again people use the free packages to upload copyrighted stuff to tradebit. We regularly (at least 2 times a day) control the latest uploads and if we find commercial MP3s or adult pictures, we delete it!

If you have commercial songs or films to sell, please be ready to proof that you have the right to do so!

Cheers,
Author:  c. staley [ Fri Oct 05, 2012 10:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Who's Responsibility is it... REALLY?
I wouldn't worry too much about it though, Harrington has already proclaim this to be all a fabrication. The site that you see on your screens is probably just a figment of your imagination – you're not really seeing what you see – pay no attention to the man behind the curtain etc.
Author:  MrBoo [ Fri Oct 05, 2012 10:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Who's Responsibility is it... REALLY?
Oh, BTW, I pulled up the exact same "Take me Home Tonight" And saw the same as what was posted in the pic above.
Author:  c. staley [ Fri Oct 05, 2012 10:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Who's Responsibility is it... REALLY?
MrBoo wrote:
Oh, BTW, I pulled up the exact same "Take me Home Tonight" And saw the same as what was posted in the pic above.

If you ask Harrington, you are most probably hallucinating or just outright lying...
Author:  MrBoo [ Fri Oct 05, 2012 10:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Who's Responsibility is it... REALLY?
According to what I just read, they file "a letter of intent" to the copyright holder for reworks and $ .09 goes to them with each purchase. Or at least that is what was explained as the proper path in the copyright page of their forum. It doesn't distinguish between copyright holder (V-choice) and "original" copyright holder. My guess is they consider all these "reworks".

Not saying it's true, just saying that's what I read as the proper path in the forum.

I'll quickly go over copyrights, since that's what I sell.

There are more copyrights, licenses than you can shake a stick at. I'm proficient with Books, Music, and other Hard literary things.

Two specific things that are legal are public domain and creative common license.

Public Domain is different in every country it seems. In USA, if you have a hard copy of a publication dated 1922 or earlier, it is in public domain even if the copyright has been renewed, transferred, or otherwise being published under the current publisher. Germany is different, UK is different... Basically look for a copyright on the scanned title page of a file you are viewing. If it's 1922 or before, you can reprint it and sell it. That's PUBLIC DOMAIN.

Creative commons license means that you can share, modify, etc, etc, SELL, etc. There are two types: NON-COMMERCIAL will plainly state it on the document, most of which are .pdf formats. NC (Non-Commercial) cannot be resold. All creative commons MUST HAVE the original copyrights and credits on the file. Do not modify it.

Project Gutenberg has a strange license, if you remove all instances of the license (included before and after the ebook) you may resell or modify it. Some of the later licenses require a royalty payment.

Generally if you have old records, you can't just record them and sell them. In the USA there are NO phonorecords in the public domain. However, you can REARRANGE and perform copyrighted songs if you file a LETTER OF INTENT to the copyright holder. You then send them USD$.09 for each one you sell. CDBaby, a partner of this site, has a wonderful article on this.

Generally licensing is determined by the copyrightholder. Two rules of thumb: Just because it LOOKS old, doesn't mean it is, and If you DON'T KNOW about the licensing, DON'T MESS WITH IT.
Author:  c. staley [ Fri Oct 05, 2012 10:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Who's Responsibility is it... REALLY?
MrBoo wrote:
According to what I just read, they file "a letter of intent" to the copyright holder for reworks and $ .09 goes to them with each purchase. Or at least that is what was explained as the proper path in the copyright page of their forum. It doesn't distinguish between copyright holder (V-choice) and "original" copyright holder. My guess is they consider all these "reworks".

Not saying it's true, just saying that's what I read as the proper path in the forum.


So my question to you would be:
Would you purchase tracks from this site and consider that purchase to be "in good faith" and therefore not responsible for going all the way back up the chain to the publisher to find out if it is legal to use?
Author:  Second City Song [ Fri Oct 05, 2012 10:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Who's Responsibility is it... REALLY?
Here you go Harrington so you can bypass the childish game.

http://www.tradebit.com/filedetail.php/ ... ke-me-home

http://www.tradebit.com/G/karaokeTextList/s
Page 1 of 4 All times are UTC - 8 hours
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
https://www.phpbb.com/