Karaoke Forums

I have posted the following a on a couple of threads several times, without an actual concise response. I thought that if I made it a thread unto itself, such a reply might be more forthcoming- specifically from Jim Harrington:

""The logo itself adds no value or quality to the track. Assuming a singer actually makes a manufacturer specific request for a song, it's not the logo the singer is looking for, but the way the track was recorded.

A host could conceivably leave all mfr. IDs in the book, remove all logos, and still receive the same customer satisfaction with the tracks being used.

Which goes back to how tough it can be to prove DAMAGES for either Trade Dress OR the media shifting of the logo without permission."

By what formula or factors might SC reach a monetary value of damages?

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

I will go you one better:

I don't believe that it's necessary for you to have the manufacturers codes even printed in a book.

I don't use a book.

I use a kiosk – and that kiosk does not (by my option) display a manufacturer code. It does not display any manufacturers codes.

While your mileage may vary, the singers at my venues trust that the version I have for them to sing is in fact, a very "singable version." they are more interested in the songs that are available – not the brands.

I have answered this several times, including in a very recent thread.

First, your premise, that the logo adds no value, is simply wrong.

Second, for the umpteenth time, these lawsuits ARE NOT ABOUT MEDIA-SHIFTING THE LOGO WITHOUT PERMISSION. These lawsuits are about making unauthorized duplicates of the tracks themselves and applying--usually automatically--SC's logo and trade dress to those tracks. It is no different from baking your own cookies and putting them in a Mrs. Field's box--they are counterfeit media, period. And they are counterfeit whether they are ripped directly from the KJ's own discs or purchased preloaded on a hard drive.

The damages are either a statutory award or actual damages, consisting of the infringer's profits plus SC's lost revenues.

Incorrect.

The only value that a logo can add to a track is the free advertising value received by the manufacturer. The logo on a track adds no value to the karaoke host or the karaoke company themselves. karaoke hosts do not purchased discs because of the logo – they purchase discs based on the content (i.e. the songs on the disc) not the logo stamped on them.

I can understand why you would believe that your client's product is more valuable than the gold in Fort Knox. But I can tell you from the karaoke host standpoint; it is expensive to purchase, comes with too many strings, and nothing new is being created.

So where's the value in that?

Nobody is creating homemade tracks and adding the Sound Choice logo to them.and then trying to sell them as Sound Choice material. That would be counterfeiting their logo. When copying a sound choice disc to a hard drive; the logo is merely incidental and seems to be covered under the fair use laws, at least according to th ecases mentioned in those documents posted from the Las Vegas cases. Nobody is buying Sound Choice discs because the LOGO, in and of itself, makes their show better. They buy Sound Choice discs because the music sounds good. Neither the KJ nor the singer cares if there is a logo on the screen. The "Trade Dress" of a Sound Choice track is also incidental and does not add anything to the value of the track. The lyrics are strictly functional and not artistic in any way.

None of these KJs are making their OWN COOKIES and trying to pass them off as Mrs. Field's cookies. They are merely taking the Mrs. Field's cookies that they have purchased and they are putting them in a pretty display case to make it easier to use them for their intended purpose.

So Chip and Joe, are you trying to say a truck with "Coca Cola", "McDonald's", "Wal-Mart", etc has no value? Surely you jest.

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You can be strange but not a stranger

To someone who needs a truck to move furniture; those paint jobs add no value to the truck once he buys it.

Exactly Bruce!

Those logos only "have value" to the Coca Cola Co., McDonald's and Wal-Mart companies as advertising.

My patrons really don't care if a logo shows up at all because it has "no value" to them because they don't buy them, I do.... And as long as the song sounds good and they can sing to it - they're happy.

Ah but advertising does have value. If it didn't, then those companies and millions of others wouldn't advertise. Chip so not one of your singers over the years have never bought a karaoke disc?

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You can be strange but not a stranger

As far as I'm concerned; the Sound Choice logo is nothing more than graffiti. It serves no purpose for the KJ or the singer.

I'm sure Coca-Cola wouldn't mind one bit if I bought a truck from them and left their paint job just the way it was when I bought it. I'd be driving around giving them free advertising...as long as I wasn't selling private label soda out of said truck and trying to convince people that it was real Coca Cola. Heck!! I see cars driving around all of the time with paint jobs that advertise all sorts of things; mostly cigarettes and booze.

Of course they bought discs. But the advertising on the disk has no value "to me." The advertising by the usage of the logo is for the manufacturer – it's not necessary for what I do. You are welcome to try as you might to somehow add value to their logo, but even if suddenly all of the karaoke tracks that you use at your gig had no logos, you would still be able to function – correct? Displaying any manufacturers logo in particular will not add a single dime to your bottom line.

And the one thing that you are forgetting in this equation of trademarks and logos is simply that when I play a karaoke track at my job, I am not using their trademark – as a trademark – it is not necessary that it show up at all.

Have you ever had a customer bring in a burned disc and ask you to play track number five and when you ask them what brand track number five is their answer is always; "I don't know, but it's the song I want to sing."

But Chip as much as you may think, the world does not revolve around you. Just because it has no value to you doesn't mean it has no value. I don't go to McDonald's so I guess I can say it has no value to me but see what happens to me in court if I use a copy of one of their TMs.

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You can be strange but not a stranger

Every mp3 I buy doesn't bump into the song with Sony or Warner inserted into the beginning audio, nor does it pop up in the middle of the song. I'm pretty sure they'd like to sell music too but they don't insert themselves into the end product.

Okay, so you walk into McDonald's, purchase a coke and walk out.... You are holding a cup with a "Coca Cola" product in it -- labeled with the trademark "McDonald's".....

AS LONG AS it's the soft drink you ordered, can you tell me what other "value" the McDonald's trademark on the cup has to YOU?

None. It is simply the "container" of the product (the real value) you paid for. You'd be happy with a plain paper cup wouldn't you? Or would you refuse to purchase the product unless it had some golden arches printed on it?

If I play a Sound Choice track on my Pioneer twin tray karaoke player, it looks ABSOLUTELY NO DIFFERENT from the track I play from my computer. How can one version be ok to display and the other version somehow damages Sound Choice in some way. They are just using this LOGO business because they have no legal leg to stand on when it comes to the music or the lyrics so they try to create some value to this piece of artwork as if the KJ derives some extra income by displaying it from a computer as opposed to displaying it from a karaoke disc player.

Just grasping at straws if you ask me. I don't think it will be long before someone uses the information from the Las Vegas lawsuit to put a stop to all of this nonsense.... or Sound Choice will just keep failing to file the correct paperwork if it gets close to going to trial; because they can't afford to lose their meal ticket, by losing even one case at trial. The lawyers are busy trying to keep all of the balls in the air as well because once one of these cases get to court and Sound Choice loses; they'll be the next one to get dismissed.

You know what's funny? I have a couple of 32 ounce McDonalds styrofoam cups that I like to use when I take drinks out into my yard. The McDonalds cup with it's nice tight lid keeps the bugs from getting at my beverage of choice. Every now and then, I might even put a beer in that cup. I really don't think that McDonalds gives a rat's A$$ what I put in that cup once I've paid for the original drink that came with it. In essence, I've format shifted that cup into a beer holder instead of the soda holder that it was intended to be.

Now if opened up a new burger joint called McDaniels and was somehow getting my hands on McDonalds cups and containers; Mickey Dee might be able to file a legitimate law suit against me for trying to pass off my Mickey Dee's buergers and sodas as McDonalds products.

There is no deception going on when someone transfers their karaoke files to their hard drive. They are just making their job a little bit easier. I don't think the Conastoga wagon company filed a law suit against FORD when HENRY FORD decided to add an engine to a four wheeled vehicle.

When the technology is there to make one's job easier; it is foolish not to take advantage of that technology.... and you shouldn't have to pay a kick back to the Conastoga company every time you get into your car.

It is a combination of the seal and the size that puts the "value" in your cups... Not the logo printed on the side.

You'd be just as happy with the cups if they were plain and the lack of a logo does not somehow diminish the cups carrying capacity, cause the liquid inside to go bad, or otherwise "damage or devalue" the product you purchased to start with.

Companies certainly do mind. Why do you think they strip all their names, logos, etc off old vehicles they sell?

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You can be strange but not a stranger

So they don't get sued in the event of an vehicular accident... but they are NOT concerned that someone will start selling off-brand soft drinks out of it
(and "confuse" anyone into believing it's Coke).

I must admit that I'm all confused here You buy a Sound Choice CDG disk to play on a PC using a Karaoke software, you're legal, right? But, you rip the digital info stored on that CDG disk into the WAV+G format on your hard drive to protect your investment which of course makes a lot of sense... but that's illegal What's the difference???