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A Funny Thing Happened On The Way To The Summit
https://mail.karaokescenemagazine.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=28055		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  The Lone Ranger [ Fri Jun 21, 2013 4:48 am ]
Post subject:  A Funny Thing Happened On The Way To The Summit
8) For four years now one manu has waged a war almost alone against piracy. Their supporters have said they were exercising their right and only trying to recover what was stolen from them. The commercial karaoke industry was told strong steps were needed to correct the current situation where 90 to 95% of the hosts operated illegally. Many hosts did not approve of the way the legal process developed, yet they were willing to allow things to progress, in the hope it would be a blessing to the whole industry. In much the same way after 9/11 many of our cherished liberties were watered down. It would seem because of piracy the freedom to run a karaoke service will also be watered down. Options will disappear, it will no longer matter if a host approves or disapproves of a manus methods, since if he or she wants to stay in business they will have to submit or quit. Much the same choice the people were given with Islam convert or die. If two manus have their way the only means to avoid lawsuits will be accept the products they are selling. Suits drive sales as Kurt said. All old forms of marketing have been abandoned since they don't work anymore. Lists will be made lists of what you can and cannot play in your own show. If the two manus can't touch you because you don't use their product, they will put you on a list and try and have the publishers put you out of business. Some say it is worth giving up the freedom to run one's own business, in order to get rid of the pirates. Still only one in 45 estimated hosts and venues have submitted to this new order. If this is where karaoke is going I'm glad I'm retiring at the end of October. There is the small hope that the trademarks for both CB and SC will expire and that will be the end of all of this. It really doesn't matter to me, but for those who want to still work in the industry, it will be full of what you can and can't do. That is hardly the freedom to run your own business. I hope the supporters of the manus are pleased with the proposed new direction of the industry. If not you will not have much to say about it.
Author:  timberlea [ Fri Jun 21, 2013 4:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: A Funny Thing Happened On The Way To The Summit
Paranoid much?
Author:  The Lone Ranger [ Fri Jun 21, 2013 5:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: A Funny Thing Happened On The Way To The Summit
timberlea wrote:
Paranoid much?


8) Oh tim, in a matter of one day you go from only two manus on the planet suing hosts, to these two manus going to control what you play and what you don't play, I think they are the ones over reacting and paranoid, of the pirates.
Author:  mrmarog [ Fri Jun 21, 2013 5:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: A Funny Thing Happened On The Way To The Summit
timberlea wrote:
Paranoid much?

A little "Orwellian" perhaps, but we are approaching "1984" ideas. We have cameras watching almost all outdoor areas (of the entire world). Cameras policing intersections. Satellite heat detectors that can spot a warm body through walls and ceilings. And now the next fear..... "karaoke cops". It may soon be in Canada too. You cannot escape it!!!
Author:  KaraokeJerry [ Fri Jun 21, 2013 11:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: A Funny Thing Happened On The Way To The Summit
oh noeeees, we-sa all doomed!!!!1!!
Author:  The Lone Ranger [ Fri Jun 21, 2013 2:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A Funny Thing Happened On The Way To The Summit
8) That is the picture painted by the summit for those who stay in the business, they will have to play ball or get out of the business altogether. I can hardly wait until Oct 31st if this is the choice. Although I will admit I think the summit over did it a bit and there was entirely too much drama.
Author:  Cueball [ Fri Jun 21, 2013 2:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A Funny Thing Happened On The Way To The Summit
The Lone Ranger wrote:
Many hosts did not approve of the way the legal process developed, yet they were willing to allow things to progress, in the hope it would be a blessing to the whole industry. In much the same way after 9/11 many of our cherished liberties were watered down. It would seem because of piracy the freedom to run a karaoke service will also be watered down.
Now you're comparing Karaoke Piracy and how the Manufacturers are trying to stop it to 9/11?????????? OMG!!!! That's all I have to say on this.
The Lone Ranger wrote:
That is the picture painted by the summit for those who stay in the business, they will have to play ball or get out of the business altogether.
YUP!!! OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Author:  The Lone Ranger [ Fri Jun 21, 2013 3:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A Funny Thing Happened On The Way To The Summit
8) I'm not saying of course cue it has the same weight of a terrorist attack. What I'm talking about is how you take a situation and use it for an excuse to trim back on a person's rights and the ability to choose what they will or won't do. Before 9/11 happened it would have been unthinkable to basically search all the passengers and their luggage going on a plane. The reality is now you have to go to the airport several hours before your flight in order to pass through the added security. When I started in the commercial karaoke industry years ago it would have been unthinkable that if you bought product, the copyright holders could come back years later and tell what you could play or not play in your show. It really struck me how in one day and one summit you have the idea of publishers joining the manus in controlling content of karaoke shows. That you have a no fly list of artists that don't want their songs sung at your show. That all of the orphan aka abandon ware product could be removed from the show. If you subscribe to Cloud at anytime songs could be pulled by artists and no longer available. This all in the interest of trying to get more control of the industry, which in the words of the summit has "developed into a Wild West type of situation". Now there is going to be a new marshal in Dodge. If you don't like it you have until sundown to get out of town.
Author:  The Lone Ranger [ Tue Jun 25, 2013 3:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: A Funny Thing Happened On The Way To The Summit
8) It would seem that one piece of the plan to corner the karaoke music supply has hit into a bit of a snag. Trying to blockade the U.S. consumer from using foreign made product.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/garyshapiro ... iley-sons/

After you access link hit search
Author:  Cueball [ Tue Jun 25, 2013 4:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: A Funny Thing Happened On The Way To The Summit
The Lone Ranger wrote:
8) It would seem that one piece of the plan to corner the karaoke music supply has hit into a bit of a snag. Trying to blockade the U.S. consumer from using foreign made product.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/garyshapiro ... iley-sons/

After you access link hit search


Is this what you want us to read? http://www.forbes.com/sites/garyshapiro ... iley-sons/

The only thing I got from that was this one line:
Quote:
U.S. copyright owners may not stop imports and re-selling of copyrighted content lawfully sold abroad.
That doesn't indicate anything about home use vs commercial use.
Author:  The Lone Ranger [ Tue Jun 25, 2013 5:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: A Funny Thing Happened On The Way To The Summit
cueball wrote:
The Lone Ranger wrote:
8) It would seem that one piece of the plan to corner the karaoke music supply has hit into a bit of a snag. Trying to blockade the U.S. consumer from using foreign made product.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/garyshapiro ... iley-sons/

After you access link hit search


Is this what you want us to read? http://www.forbes.com/sites/garyshapiro ... iley-sons/

The only thing I got from that was this one line:
Quote:
U.S. copyright owners may not stop imports and re-selling of copyrighted content lawfully sold abroad.
That doesn't indicate anything about home use vs commercial use.



8) If you read the article carefully cue commercial use did come out of all this back in 1985.

"The Supreme Court in 1984 reversed the federal court decision finding that the VCR was an illegal product. Pleasing millions of consumers who enjoyed renting movies and setting the stage for aggressive innovation in the home video sector". In other words letting companies like Blockbuster and other video rental companies operate commercially without having to pay extra fees to Hollywood that would have driven up prices for the consumer. The way I read this if a host buys legal material from overseas where the copyright licensing is easier to obtain, they will be able to use it here, it will not be illegal. After all when you do a show and provide a service you are getting paid for aren't you in effect re-selling copyrighted content, you are making money off of it? Much like the video store that is renting copyrighted material.
Author:  Cueball [ Tue Jun 25, 2013 9:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: A Funny Thing Happened On The Way To The Summit
The Lone Ranger wrote:
After all when you do a show and provide a service you are getting paid for aren't you in effect re-selling copyrighted content, you are making money off of it? Much like the video store that is renting copyrighted material.
No... You are getting paid to offer a service. You are not selling or re-selling the product. And, unlike the Video Rental stores you referred to, you are not renting out the product either. Nobody is paying you to rent the product. YOU are getting paid to use the product in public. The fact that other people are singing from what you play, is not the same thing as renting a Video at the video store to watch at home.
Author:  chrisavis [ Tue Jun 25, 2013 9:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: A Funny Thing Happened On The Way To The Summit
cueball wrote:
The Lone Ranger wrote:
After all when you do a show and provide a service you are getting paid for aren't you in effect re-selling copyrighted content, you are making money off of it? Much like the video store that is renting copyrighted material.
No... You are getting paid to offer a service. You are not selling or re-selling the product. And, unlike the Video Rental stores you referred to, you are not renting out the product either. Nobody is paying you to rent the product. YOU are getting paid to use the product in public. The fact that other people are singing from what you play, is not the same thing as renting a Video at the video store to watch at home.


This is not entirely true. I rent a rig *including the karaoke music* to a venue 3 nights a week. This is a true rental agreement as the host does not work for me. They have their own host that they pay directly. They pay me only for the rig rental.

-Chris
Author:  The Lone Ranger [ Tue Jun 25, 2013 10:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: A Funny Thing Happened On The Way To The Summit
cueball wrote:
The Lone Ranger wrote:
After all when you do a show and provide a service you are getting paid for aren't you in effect re-selling copyrighted content, you are making money off of it? Much like the video store that is renting copyrighted material.
No... You are getting paid to offer a service. You are not selling or re-selling the product. And, unlike the Video Rental stores you referred to, you are not renting out the product either. Nobody is paying you to rent the product. YOU are getting paid to use the product in public. The fact that other people are singing from what you play, is not the same thing as renting a Video at the video store to watch at home.


8) I don't agree when you are hiring out your services the customer is actually renting a segment of your time. Much like when you rent a earth moving machine and a licensed operator to run it. You are not buying the machine or hiring the operator, you are merely renting them. Just like when you use a security service, better known as rent a cop, right? Indirectly they are renting the copyrighted content since it is a tool of your trade. Like a mercenary sells his sword.
Author:  kjflorida [ Tue Jun 25, 2013 10:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: A Funny Thing Happened On The Way To The Summit
Commercial use was defined very well during the summit talks. If you are providing karaoke services ANYWHERE that the "public" (not "general public" as they are slightly different legally) can walk into it is commercial usage.
Author:  The Lone Ranger [ Tue Jun 25, 2013 11:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: A Funny Thing Happened On The Way To The Summit
kjflorida wrote:
Commercial use was defined very well during the summit talks. If you are providing karaoke services ANYWHERE that the "public" (not "general public" as they are slightly different legally) can walk into it is commercial usage.


I'm not talking about the summit spokes persons definition, since they evidently have a motive to frame the information to suit themselves. I'm talking about the legality of using the foreign licensed product in the U.S.A., there seems to be little doubt after this Supreme Court decision that the product can be used here legally. Much like VCR's became legal after the reversal of the lower court's decision back in 1985. After which you saw a rapid growth in the video rental industry, since they did not have to pay fees to Hollywood again. The same thing the manus are trying to pull now.
Author:  kjflorida [ Tue Jun 25, 2013 4:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A Funny Thing Happened On The Way To The Summit
Fair enough, Why not use the definitions from any one of the legal dictionary sites then? look up public use,personal use and commercial use.

There are also a great number of free forums where you can ask attorneys general questions for free. I used 3, surprisingly they all answered the same way.
Author:  The Lone Ranger [ Tue Jun 25, 2013 6:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A Funny Thing Happened On The Way To The Summit
kjflorida wrote:
Fair enough, Why not use the definitions from any one of the legal dictionary sites then? look up public use,personal use and commercial use.

There are also a great number of free forums where you can ask attorneys general questions for free. I used 3, surprisingly they all answered the same way.


8) What does that prove you could find three attorneys that would disagree also, that is what attorneys do they litigate. In light of the recent Supreme Court ruling it would seem that you can legally buy and use foreign produced product, at least that is the way it appears to me. One way to settle all of this is to have a test case and have the court rule on it. That is how case law is formed.
Author:  twansenne [ Tue Jun 25, 2013 7:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A Funny Thing Happened On The Way To The Summit
The Guv Ment will save us all!!!!!


Where is my Foil Beanie?
Author:  Cueball [ Wed Jun 26, 2013 4:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: A Funny Thing Happened On The Way To The Summit
chrisavis wrote:
This is not entirely true. I rent a rig *including the karaoke music* to a venue 3 nights a week. This is a true rental agreement as the host does not work for me. They have their own host that they pay directly. They pay me only for the rig rental.

-Chris

I stand corrected. Thank you.
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