VERY good post Cueball
I agree with the minimum being payment for items stolen.
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| Let the Punishment fit the Crime https://mail.karaokescenemagazine.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=28298 |
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| Author: | Cueball [ Tue Jul 16, 2013 3:38 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Let the Punishment fit the Crime |
The Lone Ranger wrote: You compare pirates to shop lifters, how many of these criminals are released if they pay for what they are caught with? I really don't see the HUGE difference except in the amount the injured party is willing to accept to make things go away. kjathena wrote: HUMM lets see how many shoplifters pay only the amount they stole...well in my area very few....but you know I would be ok with that guideline...lets see pirate 1 has 100,000,00 tracks at and average of 1.99 that works for me (and like the shoplifter they don't get to keep the spoils of the theft either) Hmmm... Let's see now.... Shoplifting is a crime. If you get caught shoplifting, you are arrested, and have to appear in court. You then face a Judge, and you face any or all of the following: You are Sentenced pay a Fine You are Sentenced to do Community Service You are Sentenced to go to Jail. Your case is Dismissed. Some small stores don't want to be bothered with this, and they may just let you walk out (without involving the legal system), provided you pay for the goods stolen. Larger Department Store Chains (like Macy's) will have their own Security Team that work in tandem with the Police, and will issue you a Desk Appearance Ticket (to appear in Court on an assigned date). They will also have you sign a form which states you are NOT ALLOWED to ever enter one of their stores again (in any US State), or you will be arrested for trespassing. This form will also state that, regardless of what happens in Court, there will be a permanent record of this in their Database, which will be shared with other Department Store Chains, and you will NOT be allowed to work for any of those entities. Now, go ahead and continue comparing your views of what punishment fits the crime of KJ Piracy. |
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| Author: | kjathena [ Tue Jul 16, 2013 4:05 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Let the Punishment fit the Crime |
VERY good post Cueball I agree with the minimum being payment for items stolen. |
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| Author: | The Lone Ranger [ Wed Jul 17, 2013 3:43 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Let the Punishment fit the Crime |
 Then you agree with the judge in the Panama city suit Athena who awarded Kurt represented by James the retail value of the product stolen around $5,000.00. A sum James felt was too small and appealed the award which the appeals court let stand. So really piracy can't be compared to shop lifting, it must be a lesser crime since you can pay off the injured party and have no criminal record.
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| Author: | rickgood [ Wed Jul 17, 2013 5:11 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Let the Punishment fit the Crime |
In the karaoke world, the punishment is to become a customer of the company. A purchase of the GEM series or a monthly subscription to Digitrax is your fine. Imagine if Target made you buy a washer and dryer if you got caught shoplifting a movie? There's your comparison. Not sure why some of you folks still don't understand that the manufacturer's goal is to put your competitors IN business, not OUT of business. Now if they socked them with a $100,000 judgement or fine, put a lien on their property, or jail time, I'd be all in favor of their methods. Just using legal filings to sell product is not going to get much approval. |
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| Author: | The Lone Ranger [ Wed Jul 17, 2013 5:25 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Let the Punishment fit the Crime |
rickgood wrote: In the karaoke world, the punishment is to become a customer of the company. A purchase of the GEM series or a monthly subscription to Digitrax is your fine. Imagine if Target made you buy a washer and dryer if you got caught shoplifting a movie? There's your comparison. Not sure why some of you folks still don't understand that the manufacturer's goal is to put your competitors IN business, not OUT of business. Now if they socked them with a $100,000 judgement or fine, put a lien on their property, or jail time, I'd be all in favor of their methods. Just using legal filings to sell product is not going to get much approval. That is the whole purpose of the legal process rick to generate sales or subscriptions. Of course you are right, the manus don't want to put the pirates out of business, even at the summit they said they would welcome back these pirates if they paid up. I have a hard time understanding why the certified hosts keep supporting the manus? It is quite clear that they care little about old established hosts they are focused on recovery period. Which is at least honest they are out for themselves.
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| Author: | kjathena [ Wed Jul 17, 2013 7:55 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Let the Punishment fit the Crime |
The difference is because of the way our legal system is set up. Shoplifting is a CRIMINAL case, with laws set so that jail time is an option. Karaoke pirating is a CIVIL case with only civil penalties (unless one commits contempt of court by not listening to the judge). I would support laws being enacted that would make piracy a criminal case....anyone else agree? |
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| Author: | MrBoo [ Wed Jul 17, 2013 8:00 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Let the Punishment fit the Crime |
Pirating can be both a civil case and\or a criminal case. |
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| Author: | The Lone Ranger [ Wed Jul 17, 2013 8:20 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Let the Punishment fit the Crime |
| While it is true it can be both, the criminal aspect of it comes into play for selling phony discs at the local swap meet, and of course marketing the illegal hard drives. Hosts and venues face the civil suit, since the object of the action is to recover money not put defendants in jail, where they will be a burden on society and not be able to pay the plaintiffs their awards and settlements. This is the whole problem nobody can even agree on exactly what type of a crime it is and how it should be dealt with. Not to mention if we did some how find a way to put all pirates away, how the industry would be able to survive. The manus wouldn't have enough customers to stay viable, and there would be a shortage of hosts.
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| Author: | MrBoo [ Wed Jul 17, 2013 8:26 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Let the Punishment fit the Crime |
Using pirated material (ie: loaded drive) is just as criminal as selling one. I could see where it may be very difficult to convince DA's, etc to worry about it. Then the SCs may or may not be compensated if the HD user is found guilty. But I argue this approach would probably make more ground in the loaded drive fight than the current approach. |
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| Author: | The Lone Ranger [ Wed Jul 17, 2013 8:50 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Let the Punishment fit the Crime |
| That is exactly why the manus started their own legal process in civil court, they could not get the DA's interested. Priority wise there are more important crimes that need to be looked to. Even the DA has limited resources and must apply them where they will do the most good.
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| Author: | Lone Wolf [ Wed Jul 17, 2013 10:45 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Let the Punishment fit the Crime |
Unless you shoplift at Wal-Mart then its http://www.wlox.com/story/5147534/wal-m ... licy-shift |
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| Author: | The Lone Ranger [ Wed Jul 17, 2013 11:33 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Let the Punishment fit the Crime |
| After reading the article I can see why the manus have gone after the venues and larger entertainment companies hiring several hosts that is where the deep pockets are. They aren't going to recover their own costs going after the small mom and pop rig operators.
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| Author: | kjathena [ Wed Jul 17, 2013 11:44 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Let the Punishment fit the Crime |
Lone Wolf wrote: Sorry I cant search for the link on my phone but we recently had a big shop lifting bust at a Walmart (Hudson Florida). The sheriffs placed a large sign in the parking lot advising deputies were on site and they still caught over 30 people (mostly large thefts) |
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| Author: | Lone Wolf [ Wed Jul 17, 2013 2:48 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Let the Punishment fit the Crime |
kjathena wrote: Lone Wolf wrote: Sorry I cant search for the link on my phone but we recently had a big shop lifting bust at a Walmart (Hudson Florida). The sheriffs placed a large sign in the parking lot advising deputies were on site and they still caught over 30 people (mostly large thefts) Basically what it says is that if the item or items are under $25 don't even bother trying to catch them just let it go. |
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| Author: | kjathena [ Wed Jul 17, 2013 4:41 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Let the Punishment fit the Crime |
The neighbor girl was caught with a mascara about a month ago here and they(walmart) called the cops and had her arrested...her court date is in about 3 weeks. I don't think a mascara costs more than $25 but I could be wrong. It also could be a really new policy. |
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| Author: | Cueball [ Thu Jul 18, 2013 1:08 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Let the Punishment fit the Crime |
The Lone Ranger wrote: ...This is the whole problem nobody can even agree on exactly what type of a crime it is and how it should be dealt with. Not to mention if we did some how find a way to put all pirates away, how the industry would be able to survive. The manus wouldn't have enough customers to stay viable, and there would be a shortage of hosts. Not really. IF (just referring to Karaoke) a way was actually found to stop piracy, then the Manufacturers would be able to produce and distribute more new music. More people would be buying from them (as versus stealing), and thus, the Manufacturers would be making more profit again. The KJs (non-pirates) have always been their main Customer Base (with some Home Users and your Karaoke Hobbyists thrown in for good measure). These people would probably continue to support/buy the newer products produced by the Manufacturers. Now, based on actually putting an end to piracy (I know.... everyone's fantasy here), why do you say there would be a shortage of hosts in your statement above? I would think that more of the KJs who quit because of piracy would start coming back again. Plus, you have your handful of Karaoke Hobbyists who eventually decide that they want to become a KJ, and start investing in what they need to go professional. |
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| Author: | Cueball [ Thu Jul 18, 2013 1:27 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Let the Punishment fit the Crime |
kjathena wrote: The neighbor girl was caught with a mascara about a month ago here and they(walmart) called the cops and had her arrested...her court date is in about 3 weeks. And the chances are, this neighborhood girl will probably get off with just a "slap on the wrist"... The Court will probably make her pay a small Fine, and/or do a few hours of Community Service, and then offer her a Conditional Discharge, by stating if she doesn't get arrested again within 1 year's time (or even 6 months), that her case will be dismissed and the record sealed. Now, doesn't that sound similar to what SC is doing (I can't speak for PRLLC, since we don't know the results of their legal pursuits yet)? Make the KJ pay a small fine (in this example, either purchase the GEM series (at a higher than retail price) and destroy all non-legit tracks of music, or pay a fine and get out of the business permanently or (I think it was mentioned somewhere) for 3 years. On a slight tangent, I still have not seen or heard of any real proof that a KJ sued by SC and proven to have an illegal library, has gotten rid of any material that was NOT SC. All I have seen was the statement that they were ordered to so by the Courts (but I have not seen the proof of enforcement). |
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| Author: | The Lone Ranger [ Thu Jul 18, 2013 2:53 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Let the Punishment fit the Crime |
cueball wrote: The Lone Ranger wrote: ...This is the whole problem nobody can even agree on exactly what type of a crime it is and how it should be dealt with. Not to mention if we did some how find a way to put all pirates away, how the industry would be able to survive. The manus wouldn't have enough customers to stay viable, and there would be a shortage of hosts. Not really. IF (just referring to Karaoke) a way was actually found to stop piracy, then the Manufacturers would be able to produce and distribute more new music. More people would be buying from them (as versus stealing), and thus, the Manufacturers would be making more profit again. The KJs (non-pirates) have always been their main Customer Base (with some Home Users and your Karaoke Hobbyists thrown in for good measure). These people would probably continue to support/buy the newer products produced by the Manufacturers. Now, based on actually putting an end to piracy (I know.... everyone's fantasy here), why do you say there would be a shortage of hosts in your statement above? I would think that more of the KJs who quit because of piracy would start coming back again. Plus, you have your handful of Karaoke Hobbyists who eventually decide that they want to become a KJ, and start investing in what they need to go professional. I think if any new people come into the industry it will depend on if it would be attractive for them to do so. Getting a karaoke business going takes a lot of time and money if done legally. The old risk reward ratio would have to come into play cue. It is rather doubtful new host would come in if the current patchwork system of getting the proper clearances from all concerned parties is still in place. Until there are some assurances that some sort of a centralized streamlined process is put in place to obtain the proper approvals, I don't see at least legal hosts flooding the market. One stop authorization is what is needed in this country like they have in the UK. Also before new material can be made the manus need to get approval from publishers and artists, which SC has had a hard time getting. It's not the pirates that are holding up new production in this case but rather the publishers and of course artists with their No Fly list.
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| Author: | Lone Wolf [ Thu Jul 18, 2013 10:28 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Let the Punishment fit the Crime |
For those of you that can't seem to use the internet with anything but a phone here is most of the story. Note the date 7/13 problem is it doesn't give the year Wal-Mart's Shocking New Shoplifting Policy Revealed by WakeUpWalMart.com; Concerned Workers Question Policy Shift WASHINGTON, July 13 /U.S. Newswire/ -- Today, WakeUpWalMart.com, as reported by the New York Times, revealed a new internal document which detailed Wal-Mart's recent changes to the company's shoplifting policies. The new changes abandon Sam Walton's policy of 'zero- tolerance,' in favor of a new policy which tells workers not to stop shoplifters for items under $25. The internal Wal-Mart policy document was given to WakeUpWalmart.com by a former Wal- Mart worker who is deeply concerned with the negative effect this policy will have on other Wal-Mart workers, the company, and the community. According to the internal Wal-Mart document, the new shoplifting policy has changed from "Shoplifter Apprehensions" to "Investigation and Detention of Shoplifters." In particular, the new shoplifting document explains to Wal-Mart workers that "the guidelines for prosecution of shoplifters have changed: the retail value of the merchandise recovered must exceed $25, and the suspected shoplifter must be at or between the ages of 18 and 65." The shift in Wal-Mart's shoplifting policy follows widespread reports from Wal-Mart workers, many in the Loss Prevention Division, who have witnessed deep cuts, scheduling changes, and other restructuring at Wal-Mart stores. In fact, as reported in the New York Times, J.P. Suarez, Wal-Mart's Loss Prevention director admits the company is making these changes as a cost- saving measure. As Suarez states "it was no longer efficient to prosecute petty shoplifters, 'If I have somebody being paid $12 an hour processing a $5 theft, I have just lost money'," he said. "I have also lost the time to catch somebody stealing $100 or an organized group stealing $3,000." |
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| Author: | Smoothedge69 [ Thu Jul 18, 2013 10:49 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Let the Punishment fit the Crime |
So, if you go into walmart and steal a party tyme disc, every now and them, you can rip them to your hard drive, and if ever asked you can still show 1:1 compliance, while not paying for the discs. Piracy, without the lawsuit!! Hey Sound Choice, PLEASE start selling your discs at Walmart!!  !!!
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