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Audits? NOW??
https://mail.karaokescenemagazine.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=28321		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  JoeChartreuse [ Sun Jul 21, 2013 11:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Audits? NOW??
We have seen discussions regarding mfr. audits ( and attending costs) off and on.

Well, here's a thought:

Certain people without any business training have letter wrote, poked, prodded, noisily litigated, and otherwise did their damnedest to awake the sleeping giants (Publishers/music owners), and have started to succeed. The folks who have done this have- of course- shot themselves in the foot.

Besides possibly screwing themselves out of production rights, they may well have done the same for legal rights.

If the giants fully awaken, of what worth do you think audits from karaoke production companies might be?

How about those -paid for- CB audits?

I'm thinking that one might wait a bit- at least until they find out FROM WHOM they should actually be audited. Why blow business funds for no reason?
Author:  doowhatchulike [ Mon Jul 22, 2013 7:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Audits? NOW??
Interesting thought...and here is one to go with it: IF it is true that the lyrics are all that manufacturers can allow the right to media shift, perhaps that is all they should be able to get paid for in court? I am sure that sounds a bit far-fetched, but turning a trademark suit into a much bigger battle can get messy and off-track, which can be unfair to the consumer. Dragging the fight into other areas that may not have relevant laws in hopes of getting monetary awards is also unfair...
Author:  kjathena [ Mon Jul 22, 2013 7:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Audits? NOW??
interesting...what do the karaoke manufactures own the rights to ?

1. The lyric swipes
AND
2. The musical recreation the lyrics are set to

What do the Publishing houses own the rights to ?

The original musical creation.

Those who communicate with the publishers have a good understanding of the value of audits :mrgreen: Those who don't bother to start dialogs with them listen to those who make certain ideas sound logical. I will once again strongly suggest every KJ start contacting the large publishing houses and asking questions directly. :banghead:
Author:  Smoothedge69 [ Mon Jul 22, 2013 7:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Audits? NOW??
kjathena wrote:
interesting...what do the karaoke manufactures own the rights to ?

1. The lyric swipes
AND
2. The musical recreation the lyrics are set to

What do the Publishing houses own the rights to ?

The original musical creation.

Those who communicate with the publishers have a good understanding of the value of audits :mrgreen: Those who don't bother to start dialogs with them listen to those who make certain ideas sound logical. I will once again strongly suggest every KJ start contacting the large publishing houses and asking questions directly. :banghead:

You know, it is YOU who are going to bring this whole thing down. The publishers don't want to hear from every KJ on the planet. You keep needling them and they are going to come after all of us and that will be the end of karaoke.
Author:  kjathena [ Mon Jul 22, 2013 8:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Audits? NOW??
WOW you give me a lot of credit and a lot more power than I have Smoothedge. My contacts at the publishers have told me they are glad that KJ's are trying to navigate the mine field that currently exists in this industry.

I tried for a LONG time to relay info and was dismissed or called a liar (or worse)....if KJ's ask themselves they get the answers directly from the publishers mouth.

I refuse to listen to twisted information any longer...I will go directly to the source and advise others to do the same. If you or anyone else refuses to do so that is your choice, you pay for the choices you make....not me.
Author:  doowhatchulike [ Mon Jul 22, 2013 10:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Audits? NOW??
If one establishes the communication with "the publishers" and receive the information from them, will that person just accept the situation and take the consequences of it? Or, will they start a grassroots effort to have a more fair and comprehensive approach to the issues that have developed?
Author:  kjathena [ Mon Jul 22, 2013 10:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Audits? NOW??
I have tried to start a grassroots effort to have more KJ's get involved with the publishers. (at this point the publishers see most KJ's in a very negative light....I would like to see that change).

I fully agree that it is a undue burden to have to track down any verify licencing for karaoke tracks. We are now starting to see companies selling tracks not licensed for use here in the USA have to block US customers and I think we shall see more blocking in the very near future.

As much as some would say I have "goddess like powers" to make changes to the industry I don't. It will take a solid core group of KJ's to get the publishers to make the necessary changes.....also known as "waking the dragons/giants"

I am afraid that things are going to get much worse before they get better.....I do not like this idea but it doesn't make it any less real.
Author:  leopard lizard [ Mon Jul 22, 2013 10:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Audits? NOW??
doowhatchulike wrote:
If one establishes the communication with "the publishers" and receive the information from them, will that person just accept the situation and take the consequences of it? Or, will they start a grassroots effort to have a more fair and comprehensive approach to the issues that have developed?


It would be up to the person who wants change to start any campaigns to bring it about. The first step is reading the actual laws for yourself and gathering accurate information so you know what it is you need to change and how you might best go about doing it. Mr. Harrington has said that some rights granted under copyright would require a change in the constitution. So that is something to think about. Do you really want to try to take away an artist's control over their own work and how it is used? Maybe it would be better to compaign to them to let us sing their songs rather than to change the laws.
Author:  Smoothedge69 [ Mon Jul 22, 2013 11:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Audits? NOW??
kjathena wrote:
I have tried to start a grassroots effort to have more KJ's get involved with the publishers. (at this point the publishers see most KJ's in a very negative light....I would like to see that change).

I fully agree that it is a undue burden to have to track down any verify licencing for karaoke tracks. We are now starting to see companies selling tracks not licensed for use here in the USA have to block US customers and I think we shall see more blocking in the very near future.

As much as some would say I have "goddess like powers" to make changes to the industry I don't. It will take a solid core group of KJ's to get the publishers to make the necessary changes.....also known as "waking the dragons/giants"

I am afraid that things are going to get much worse before they get better.....I do not like this idea but it doesn't make it any less real.

All I am trying to say it that if you people keep pushing the publishers,and keep needling them over these issues, you may take the whole thing down. I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY YOU PEOPLE DON'T GET THAT!!!! Kurt is doing it, YOU are doing it, and you are trying to get other KJs to do it.

You think it is going to help. I think they will tell you how they appreciate you for opening their eyes to this stuff, then they are going to come out and CRUSH us ALL!!! STOP already!! Let the Karaoke MFRS deal with licensing!! It's not OUR business to worry about licensing. We aren't recording this music, we are just playing it!! We dpon't pay licensing fees, and we don't pay royalties. Publishing is NOT our business. For Christ's sake, STOP!! Just run your shows, worry about your pirates and get out of the business of the big boys before you, and everyone you are trying to recruit get us ALL shut down.
Author:  kjathena [ Mon Jul 22, 2013 11:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Audits? NOW??
" It's not OUR business to worry about licensing."

Legally you are wrong it is our responsibility as business owners that use the product in a commercial manner.
Author:  leopard lizard [ Mon Jul 22, 2013 11:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Audits? NOW??
But Smooth--haven't you been upset about people rolling over and taking it instead of pushing for what we need? How will you push the powers that be to change things and still keep them unaware of you at the same time?
Author:  Smoothedge69 [ Mon Jul 22, 2013 12:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Audits? NOW??
leopard lizard wrote:
But Smooth--haven't you been upset about people rolling over and taking it instead of pushing for what we need? How will you push the powers that be to change things and still keep them unaware of you at the same time?

It's not the publishers I want pushed. I want the laws changed. That is the government not the publishers.
Author:  leopard lizard [ Mon Jul 22, 2013 12:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Audits? NOW??
What would your ideal law be?
Author:  kjathena [ Mon Jul 22, 2013 12:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Audits? NOW??
wrong again Smoothedge...as Harrington explained "a copyright is a constitutional monopoly"....the publishers have all the rights and protections.

If we want things changed those changes will have to come from the publishers. US law is changing to protect those publishers even more.You wanting the government to loosen up and take those rights away from the rightful owners(publishers/owners) will never happen.
Author:  timberlea [ Mon Jul 22, 2013 12:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Audits? NOW??
Have you contacted your congressperson and Senator voicing your concerns? Do a petition to show them? Any sort of action other than forums?
Author:  Smoothedge69 [ Mon Jul 22, 2013 12:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Audits? NOW??
leopard lizard wrote:
What would your ideal law be?

My ideal law would remove restrictions on where and from who you could buy your music from. It would introduce more competition, and better prices, and even, perhaps, better quality. In most cases, it would reduce piracy, too because the music would be available from all over one song at a time. You would still never get rid of piracy, because some people just refuse to pay anything for their material, but I guarantee you would see a substantial drop in it. Licensing should be the same all over the world. Why?? It's all the same product. It's music. It shouldn't be so complicated and it shouldn't cause stress. Using the music you buy shouldn't cause stress.

I have been a singer all my life. Music has been a HUGE part of my life, as far back as I can remember. I have been in chorus in school, I have been in bands and I have been singing karaoke since 1994. It has always given me joy. I have been running show since 2004, when I took over the show at one place, and since I have been helping my friend with his show. That is what made me decide to do this for a living.

I will tell you, in some ways I am glad I joined this sight again, because I was about to make a huge mistake, and may have gotten in trouble because of it, but then again, I rue the day I re-found this site because of the stress of all this licensing crap. That's exactly what it is, crap. It should be simple, and it shouldn't be something we need to think about. We don't produce karaoke, we use it. We are the consumer. No other product that I use do I worry about licensing, copyrights, or where I buy from. Only Karaoke music. You have people fighting each other on WEBSITES over this nonsense. It just shouldn't be this stressful.
Author:  kjathena [ Mon Jul 22, 2013 12:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Audits? NOW??
Sorry that is not the way it works Smoothedge......as a business owner you must follow the commercial rules...and yes it is stressful, if you dont want to deal with it maybe a hobby building wishing wells for sale is a better way fore you to earn a few bucks.

Do you think the venues that have had to pay 45K or more shouldn't have to worry about the music the KJ they hired plays ? Legally they do have to worry and Legally they are responsible under the law as it is written.
Author:  Smoothedge69 [ Mon Jul 22, 2013 12:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Audits? NOW??
kjathena wrote:
wrong again Smoothedge...as Harrington explained "a copyright is a constitutional monopoly"....the publishers have all the rights and protections.

If we want things changed those changes will have to come from the publishers. US law is changing to protect those publishers even more.You wanting the government to loosen up and take those rights away from the rightful owners(publishers/owners) will never happen.

Athena, when are you going to realize that Harrington is ONLY in it for SC?? He doesn't give a crap about the KJs. He's a lawyer. He ONLY cares about his client, and what is good for them and himself. If anything major were to change in favor of KJs, he could lose HIS income stream. He's not going to let that happen.
Author:  Smoothedge69 [ Mon Jul 22, 2013 12:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Audits? NOW??
kjathena wrote:
Sorry that is not the way it works Smoothedge......as a business owner you must follow the commercial rules...and yes it is stressful, if you dont want to deal with it maybe a hobby building wishing wells for sale is a better way fore you to earn a few bucks.

Do you think the venues that have had to pay 45K or more shouldn't have to worry about the music the KJ they hired plays ? Legally they do have to worry and Legally they are responsible under the law as it is written.


And we are not. That is why we don't have to pay the Alphabets. It's only stressful because YOU make it stressful by worrying about every little thing. You worry about the licensing of every song you play. That isn't our problem.
Author:  jclaydon [ Mon Jul 22, 2013 1:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Audits? NOW??
Athena : you are mistaken. In the US a karaoke publisher doesn't own the rights to the lyrics. Hence the reason the GEM license is worded the way it is.

If they owned the rights for the lyrics sweep then they could grant you rights to media shift the GEM series with impunity, as it is they can't. Look at your contract, it speficially states that they only grant permision for the rights that they own. look at all the old forum topics on this issue, they will tell you the exact same thing.

that is why things are such a mess, because of the stupid lyrics.

-james
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