Karaoke Forums

Let's look at this issue from a practical point of view. If you spend $100 a month on new karaoke and you do 4 shows per week, your legally obtained music is costing you $6.25 per gig (if you're doing less than 4 shows per week, you're not a full-time KJ). Are some of you folks saying that your talent, abilities and skills aren't worth that difference? Having 100,000 songs is not an advantage if you can only put up an average of 10-12 singers per hour, so you're playing a maximum of 60 songs in a 4 hour show.

If you are losing business to those who obtain their tracks at no cost, you might need to look in the mirror to see the source of your lack of success in this business.

Ohhhhhhh, there gonna get you for saying that...standing back

Well past investment does not have anything to do with current profits? If I'm making $150 per show starting this week and doing 4 shows, my gross profit per show is $143.75. Now I know there are other costs involved in running a business, but if we look at it from just the music purchase, we're looking at $25 per week. I'm also going to bet that most folks don't spend $100 a month on new stuff these days. I

I'm no longer active in the karaoke part of the entertainment business but I think I could be competitive with my roughly 14,000 tracks. I'm in the trivia business and I own a national franchise, which I have to pay per game fees for the shows I do. If some other trivia company downloads all their questions from the internet, which most do, that gives them content that I pay for and they don't. Does it affect my business? No. We do 26 trivia shows each week, paying our franchise fees and competing with those who grab their content off the internet for free. The largest competitor I have has been in the business for 11 years and has 8 weekly shows. We've been in business for 2 years. What's the difference?

Direct answer to the OP: Yes.

The number of people on stage singing per hour is not a factor in this at all. The amount we spend per week/month on new music only relates to this in the way of our respective profit margins.

We have all seen how piracy hurts the industry as well as legitimate KJ's, but for the sake of argument, I will provide my current take on this.

Pirates have potentially zero startup and maintenance costs when it comes to music. As we all know, music is the single biggest expense for a karaoke host even now. This allows pirates to bloat their libraries and potentially provide every single karaoke track ever produced giving them an edge in the "I have the most comprehensive and current tracks" column.

I believe piracy helped drive the nightly fee down, but I don't necessarily believe it is keeping the fee down at this point. The economy, the ebb and flow of the popularity of karaoke, and other factors help keep the fees we can charge low.

But I do believe that piracy has lowered the bar to the point that anyone.....and I mean ANYONE can try their hand at being a karaoke host. That means that in tough economic times, as people are looking for ways to supplement their incomes or just find any kind of a paying job, karaoke becomes a very attractive option. I don't want to offend any current karaoke hosts, but starting a new karaoke show is a zero skill affair. ANYONE can start up a karaoke show. Doesn't mean they can maintain, but they don't have to. They can simply move on and startup elsewhere making the same money and hold on long enough until they find another gig and move on again.

This all feeds into the saturation aspect. Piracy has absolutely contributed to the large number of karaoke shows that exist today and for the reasons stated above. That means that pirates are sitting in gigs that legitimate hosts could be running. This prevents people like me - aspiring small business owners - from expanding and contributing to the local economy.

I could offer more, but I have a show to go run.

Rick - if I moved to your neck of the woods and started up a DJ Trivia business to compete with you, but I stole all the trivia questions, software, etc which would in turn allow me to undercut you while still maintaining a higher profit margin, would that have an impact on your business?


-Chris

_________________
-Chris

Actually, Rick, I don't feel the Trivia vs Karaoke is even a fair comparison.

For one, there isn't trivia on every corner. Two, trivia actually does take some skill to startup (which may be why it isn't on every corner). A pirate trivia host still has prep-work they have to do every week for a show. A pirate karaoke host has absolutely nothing to do between shows (since a bot can automatically grab new music for them). But even if they are manually grabbing new music, that is all they have to do. They aren't organizing teams, leagues, categories, etc.

Again, I am not trying to trivialize (pun?) what we do as karaoke hosts, but after I get my foot in the door, I am on autopilot after a few weeks. It doesn't take a lot of brainpower to run a SUCCESSFUL karaoke show. I spend more time fretting over the business side of things than I do the actual shows. Pirates don't typically fret over anything at all except making sure they get paid and hopefully in cash.

There are exceptions to this of course. There are some very large scale pirate karaoke companies out there that run their businesses very well. They pay their taxes, they pay their hosts properly, they pay all of the applicable business fees, etc. They just don't pay for their music. It is a competitive edge that absolutely has an impact on KJ's that compete against them as well as the industry as a whole.

-Chris

_________________
-Chris

Chris,

I see your point of view and I do see there is some difference between the two forms of entertainment. But, as a DJ I also have to compete with DJs who steal their music. I've never knowingly lost a gig to somebody who has more songs than me though. I run my business like a business, have been a prime cuts subscriber for both music and video for 6 years, costs me about $85 a month, in addition to all the CDs I personally had that I converted. I compete on my ability on the mic, my personality, my knowledge of music and how to fill a dance floor. I have general liability insurance and have to pay extra insurance on all my vehicles due to strict requirements from 3 country clubs that I do business with.

That being said, I understand that the track thieves have taken the rates down, but there will always be somebody willing to do any gig cheaper than you. I think you personally run your business much like I do and would be able to compete in most any environment.

What is your opinion on piracy ever being eradicated? How could that possibly happen? Maybe folks should just learn to live with the reality of piracy and up their level of performance to overcome it?

Piracy will never go away. I do believe the various industries that are plagued by it though are going to get some help from technology (specifically the cloud) over the next 10 years.

Software - We are already seeing less software on store shelves and more being controlled downloads directly from online stores and getting tied to devices or simply being streamed and run in the cloud or in a browser. There is a transformation taking place in software that is seriously going to help piracy in that arena.

Music/Video/Movies - Less help here, but with streaming services coming along and a shifting attitude in the younger generations around ownership (not to mention having less expendable income to buy in the first place), piracy won't be necessary.

Karaoke - As long as there is an ownership model where KJ's must possess the content they use to do a show, then piracy will thrive. Digitrax is moving in the right direction, but until companies eliminate physical media completely and start securing digital downloads with watermarking/auditing/whatever, it is going to continue to be an issue.

An alternative would be to go to a forced cloud model or tie physical media to devices or applications. Big problems with both which have been discussed in the forums.

The only other alternative is for the copyright holders to seriously pursue pirates. Some examples need to be made to the tune of crushing some pirates financially and, in my opinion, some jail time. Keep the pressure on and make people seriously think twice. I don't think this will happen. Ever. I have no faith that any of the karaoke content providers or the upstream copyright holders will have the stomach to hold anyone's feet to the fire like that.

KJ's will be dealing with piracy for many, many years to come.

-Chris

_________________
-Chris

Wow, $6.25 a show?? I run two shows a week, at one place.I just started about 5 weeks ago. The second night was added this past week. Some nights I spend $6.00 on songs, other nights I have spent $25 in one night. Now granted, my starting collection was rather small, comparatively. But each week my show is getting more and more busy, and because I buy downloads from Tricerasoft, DTE, and All Star, I can usually fill a request by the customer's next turn. I run a good show, according to everyone I talk to, and I make sure I can purchase songs as I need them. No Pirate is going to get the better of me. The owners like me because I am bringing in more business for them.

Now, I will admit, I did take less pay than I wanted, I look at it this way, it's my first gig on my own, and it's good for getting my name out there. Then, if someone else wants me on a different night, I will charge them more, especially if it's a Saturday. Around here, one thing that kills the pay structure is the economy. Since it tanked NONE of the bars are consistently busy. The place I am at has been all but dead for at least a year. I am hoping I can help them out and get the business back.

Another problem we have here is an over zealous police department. People are afraid to drive in this town because of the police. Most of my friends and regulars from my friend's show live in the next town. They won't come down this way because they are afraid of the police. So I have to build all new regulars, which is working well, at this point. I have already taken a few people from another show in the neighborhood that is on the same night.

As for piracy ever being eradicated?? That will never happen. There aren't enough Karaoke companies in the fight, and even if there were, they would need an army of inspectors, an army of lawyers, and courts set up JUST to hear piracy cases. If there are 30,000 KJs in the country, WHO is going to take them all out?? Besides there are some of you, like Paradigm, who have said that as soon as the inspectors leave an area, and the cases are finished, new pirates take over. The venues don't care. As soon as the Pirate Patrol leaves they hire new pirates. Maybe not in all areas, but in many, this is the way it plays out. If ANYONE, including Kurt Slep, thinks that piracy will EVER be gone, they are quite foolish, indeed.

_________________
I am the ONLY SANE 1 HERE

Very good post and very true. BUT, regardless of what piracy stopping methods come along, it still won't go away. You have areas of the country that have never been inspected, and probably never will be inspected. As for phasing out the ownership model, that will only work if everyone is on the same page, and cloud services become inexpensive. $199.00 a month is still expensive, unless you are making $2,000 a month. Hard drive sellers will never go away without a massive effort to get rid of them. Torrent sites, and file sharing networks, unless outlawed and shut down, will always be there. Finally, unless Federal laws get RADICALLY changed, or licensing becomes simple and affordable, legal downloads will always be questionable and some people won't go that route because of that.

_________________
I am the ONLY SANE 1 HERE

I have now hosted for nineteen years come September and I can say that I never lost a gig to a pirate. Actually I have had more problems from fellow legal hosts, but that is another story. On the other hand I have never been sued either. I was working six days a week until recently had to cut back my work load by 50%, and I will be totally retired from the industry after Oct. Unless you are on these forums most hosts and venues know little about these piracy issues. Some of the work I have picked up is because the PC hosts machine crashed and the show was cancelled. I have never cancelled a show because of equipment issues. Mainly because I have backup systems in place. Monday I will be 68 years old. Do I think the piracy problem will be solved by the manus, probably not, in order to do so they would have to force all hosts to adopt their products exclusively. A big obstacle will be the legal hosts even if they are certified, since they will be caught in these legal nets with the illegal operators. While I agree with Chris you can run a show without much of a skill level, a quality show is still important, and requires skill. My show has always been run using the same principles any business man would use running a similar service based enterprise. Is there a solution to the problem yes, will it be adopted no because it is too easy and will not afford the manus the opportunity to individually follow their own solutions, and of course recover their own lost share of the common pie. The solution is simple amnesty for all products used and an operator's license for the host to let them run their own business. After the cost of the purchased material is recovered the advantage of the illegal host diminishes to zero. Then both hosts are competing on an equal footing and it does depend on the business savvy and the skill of the operator. You have to remember many pirates are after the easy money, they don't want to take the time to learn their craft, and they don't want to spend the money on equipment necessary to make a top notch show. Also they have all the cardinal rule vises usually, they drink to much, they are too greedy, they tend to try and use their business as a dating service, and basically they are very lazy. You can add to that sloppy in their delivery and quality of the finished product. If you are a wise consumer you can buy junk or you can buy quality it all depends on budget etc.etc.etc . That is what is called the market place. These cardinal rule vises are not only limited to the pirates some legal hosts have the same issues. That is why sometimes pirates are able to get gigs away from legal hosts, that and the fact that some legal hosts are just not very good at what they do and should find another line of work. That is why I have the utmost respect for fellow hosts, it is a hard job if done right, and sometimes the rewards don't seem to match the effort involved. To me it is like preaching, teaching or any other type of job that a person feels called to do. You can go through the motions but your heart won't be in your business, and it will show.

Yes, pirate hosts do hurt legitimate KJ's in a few different ways.

1. They have driven rates by more than 1/2 in some areas.

2. They have made it much harder for legitimate hosts to book new shows (try explaining to a venue owner why your legal library of 30,000 songs is better that the over 100,000 songs most HD pirates boast.

3. While not all HD pirates offer crap-i-oke if a venue has churned 3-4 crap-i-oke shows and killed the business they are gun shy to try a quality karaoke show.

We have lost VERY few shows to pirates over the years...most venue owners find quickly that you get what you pay for, however many venues do start to think that the price they should pay for karaoke is $100 or less after 15-30 pirate pitches for $50, or even just beer.

We are one of few long time Karaoke companies left in our area. Most just gave up refusing to even consider working for so little. We have venues we have worked at for over 15 years, others for over 6 ect...but our problems came when a venue would close and we had to replace a show.

So Yes pirate KJ's do effect legitimate KJ's

_________________
"Integrity is choosing your thoughts, words and actions based on your principles and values rather than for your personal gain."
Unknown
"if a man has integrity, nothing else matters, If a man has no integrity, nothing else matters."
Lee McGuffey

kjathena,

The only issue I see that you described that would apply to pirates only is the 30,000 - 100,000 tracks issue, all the others you listed are things that every KJ has to deal with. Are you suggesting only pirates run crappy shows or try to drive the prices down? The economy has driven the prices down and I can take you to some very bad original disc karaoke shows in several states because I have been to them.

I too have problems replacing shows when venues close, so that's not particular to karaoke. And believe me, there are just as many crappy trivia shows out there as well, so I have to sell against that also.

As for trying to defend a 30,000 library against a 100,000 library, what's the number where that issue disappears? Wouldn't 31,000 songs be more than 30,000? Wouldn't 30,250 be more?

The sheer numbers of pirates out there makes discounting them a ridiculous notion. There just would not be as many people in the business if they had to pay the legitimate start up costs. They take up spots and they draw away customers. Even if it is short term the constant turnover and endless supply makes it a continuous leak.

So what if a host in all their greatness triumphs over a pirate-- it still has an impact. I did regain a show I lost to a Beer Show (come on--isn't it tempting for a bar to want to try a $20 show?) but I lost a few week's income in the process plus the customers now need to be brought back in. That's an affect.

We had a $40 show next door to where I used to be. Granted we eventually beat them but they just keep trying new $40 hosts. The majority of people stayed loyal to the venue but there were a certain amount who liked to go back and forth to get more singing time and that was all money lost. Plus we had to endure dirty tricks and disruptions to our show from people they sent over to cause trouble.

There is another venue that knows they can get a host for $75 so they won't pay more than that. They have gone through a series of hosts and even given up karaoke for long periods of time rather than pay more--and they have been to our show at another venue when it was packed and even had their customers ask for us--but they won't budge on the $75. That's the only venue in that town and it is unavailable to a legitimate host.

Legitimate hosts now find themselves having to pay more costs to stay legitimate due to efforts to combat piracy. Paying for audits from several companies affects the bottom line. We also may find it more difficult to obtain new music in the near future while the publishers and manus hash out the licensing issues. Forget blaming the manus for bringing that about. The pirates were reason the manus tried to take action to begin with.

There are so many pirates taking up spots that a new show may have a difficult time finding a venue in which to prove themselves in the first place.

Glad my area is pretty clean.

_________________
I am the ONLY SANE 1 HERE

Rickgood,
I can not speak about trivia or DJ shows as all we do is karaoke. I can only speak about our area and our experience. For over a decade we were known as THE karaoke company with the largest and best selection because we made a strong effort to purchase discs every month and add to all 3 of our systems. When the HD pirates started hitting they DID pitch 100,000 tracks or every song ever made...this did impact us and it was not easy to explain why we could not offer the same.

Piracy and crap-i-oke are 2 different issues.....some pirates do run good shows...and some "legal" hosts (disc based or computer based) run crap-i-oke. I do not worry too much about crap-i-oke as most of those shows do not last long. They make a bad name for themselves and before long no bar owner will touch them.

Another problem with crap-i-oke is no matter how cheap they can sour a venue on karaoke for a very long time. A venue thinking they will "save money" hire these jokers...run off the customers ...hire another ....and end up with no business and think Karaoke was the cause. We just booked a venue that refused to have karaoke for 3 years after churning 6 crap-i-oke shows...it will be interesting to see how long it will take us to build the show.

The economy didnt drive rates down...we have 2 shows that have lasted MANY years...our rates did not go down (we did not ask for raises however due to loyalty by the venues They were offered $75 or less shows multiple times every week...but knew we were the best)

_________________
"Integrity is choosing your thoughts, words and actions based on your principles and values rather than for your personal gain."
Unknown
"if a man has integrity, nothing else matters, If a man has no integrity, nothing else matters."
Lee McGuffey

Let's call piracy what it really is - counterfeiting - and it does affect karaoke hosts and everybody else. It costs $500B, that's right a B as in billion, worldwide a year. Karaoke may be a small part but it hurts. Counterfeiting is also dangerous and has caused people their lives or injuries. Some years back the FAA along with the FBI investigated counterfeit airplane parts which in some instances caused crashes. Even Air Force One was found to have numerous counterfeit parts.

_________________
You can be strange but not a stranger

Per Rickgood:

"If you are losing business to those who obtain their tracks at no cost, you might need to look in the mirror to see the source of your lack of success in this business.


Bingo, and thanks Rick. If you are library dependent, than you should choose another business- you aren't good enough at this one.

I've been at this for decades, and when I switched to CD from LD ( after switching from cassettes) I started with SGB, SuperCore, and a few MMs. I had home customized equipment. Yet was burying evey KJ in the area in short order.

Now, though still disc based, no PC based, or pirate, or undercutter has ever laid a glove on me. Why? Pretty much because I took the time to learn my business. I went to the absolute worst shows around, learned why they were bad, and didn't do that. Then I went to the absolute best shows in the area, learned why, and DID THAT. Then, I incorporated my own business education- meaning I learned all the LEGAL and accounting sides of my business, then I threw in my own sales-trained personality. It worked.

I have found that many business owners were too stupid or lazy to bother learning the business first.
What I have found out about virtually all business failures is that the owners never blame themselves, yet it is almost ALWAYS their fault.

_________________
"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

I always think of library dependent as referring to the Pirates as they are the ones who marketed that for lack of anything better. And yes, they should get out of the business.

I have only been at it for 3 years now. I have never lost a gig to a pirate either. But I have had to justify why my rates are double what some other KJ is offering. I am very good at defending my prices.

I am no longer concerned with the "every track available" hosts. I have "every track available" too because I have invested a lot of money buying physical discs and because I buy downloads on demand.

I have started advertising my song book as http://iCroons.com - If it is there and has a blue link, I have it. If there is no blue link, ask me anyway because I probably have it.

This weekend I will have a Windows Surface machine locked to the iCroons search page as a "kiosk" machine.

I am also announcing at my shows to use iCroons for song searches on their phones.

I have heard more new music in the last 3 months that I have in the 2.5 years prior.

-Chris

_________________
-Chris

I truly think their needs to be changes in the publishers, a yearly fee to ALL kj's with a certificate that has to be displayed at all shows (brought by the kj). This will keep the ones that want to continue karaoke in a business manner and those who just do it for 'fun' or for beer money out of the game. With hefty fines to those not in compliance.
But I know that will never happen.

_________________
LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!