Karaoke Forums

If PEP ceased all lawsuit activity immediately and permanently......

What positive changes would take place that would *impact you directly* as a result?

What positive changes do you feel would take place in the industry? (by industry, I mean the music companies, the karaoke producers, the retailers - NOT karaoke hosts and NOT bars)

What positive changes do you feel would take place for ALL karaoke hosts (all of us, not just you) and ALL karaoke venues (all of them, not just yours)?

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-Chris

I am NOT a supporter of SC/Pep's tactics and particularly the suing of "technical infringers" ...... however, and I've said several times before, who would be watching the henhouse then. If you think we have rampant theft now it would be out of control without their efforts.

My personal efforts to do the right thing is way in the minority of those that could care less about pirating their music. The only thing that keeps even more from entering our world is the threat of legal action..... as unlikely as it might be.... or as little as many have to lose. With another 10 percent of KJs in the mix, our price per gig would not even be worth many of us to leave our home.

My Pacer bill would go down.

#1. Music Companies = No change. Karaoke has been nothing more than a pain in the rear and a source for very little income in a niche market. More money has been "stolen" from these companies by manufacturers over the years and they are very jaded against it. PEP's inability to get any publisher to grant them a license (even for a single discs-worth of songs) is proof of that. They are certainly NOT jumping to get into the karaoke licensing business.

#2. Karaoke producers = No change. Pep suing or not suing doesn't affect other manufacturers like KSF or karaoke version. PEP isn't that important, they are not a competitor because they are not a supplier in this business and hasn't been for over 6 years.

#3. Retailers= No change. Why would they care? They're not affected whether PEP sues anyone or not. But the might be able to move some old dusty SC material... but they can do that now in about 12 states.


No measurable change here either. PEP suing has not stopped KJ's and bars from using computers and they sure haven't managed to slow down piracy

PEP just isn't as important as you'd like them to be in this "industry." They are the proverbial "has beens."

I would think if they concentrated as hard on making product as they did by filing lawsuits, they would make money on it.

Should be a subscription type thing, or an outright buy is up to them. They could do both if they use the GEM series legally as a base plus the addition of new releases.

I have stated time and again, that regardless I felt about some of PEPs policy (mostly over CB), I would be willing to buy things provided I don't have to jump through hoops. I have issues with them, but business is business. Make something I can buy, and here is my credit card, I have hungry rigs that need to be fed.

Let me be clear on how I feel here: While I hate piracy, it's a lost battle. The landscape has not changed for the better WITH PEP suing venues and KJs over the last 6+ years. Like the mythical hydra, cut off one head, and two heads take it place. If it was making a dent, I would say it's a useful tool, but its not.

And no, I don't mind a one-two punch with PEP suing for Sound Choice product along with making new stuff. If it keeps them in business, and I get new tracks, I'm a happy KJ.

But PEP should make product. To say it won't get eventually stolen is a lie. To say they will make a profit on every single track they produce is a fantasy. They need to think of tracks like any other media, hot first out of the gate, then sales will decline over time as people buy it, or its now available all the Internet. Eventually, it might be a few sales here and there over the course of a month, and hopefully the costs, plus a profit had been turned Thats the risk of making karaoke tracks that PEP has to take, just like every other musician in the business.

If there is no material impact to you or anyone else, then to what end is all your arguing, complaining, ranting?

_________________
-Chris

I disagree.

I came into the hosting scene not long after SC had come through the Seattle area with lawsuits. I did the certification, and picked up a couple of venues almost immediately as a result of venues finding me through the SC site. I parlayed the climate then and now into a respectable karaoke business that is still thriving.

Without SC lawsuits, I do believe I could have accomplished the same thing albeit it over a greater amount of time and with a greater amount of work. But the fact remains that the lawsuits scattered the roaches and allowed myself and other legit hosts in my area to either get established, expand or both.

At this point, if PEP ceased lawsuits, I think the only thing I might see is more pirate undercutters knocking our venue doors. But I feel confident that I have established my self and developed a recognizable brand and reputation that can defend against them.

_________________
-Chris

In other words, You've "leveraged PEP" to get where you are and even if they stopped lawsuits tomorrow, there would be no measurable change for you either.

So you don't "need them" anymore because you've built your own brand and reputation, but you're still contractually obligated to them like a boil you are unable to lance.

Your own "recognizable brand and reputation" is more fragile than you might think it is.

Me personally, nothing. Where I stand now, the last show I hosted was a private party about 1 year ago. Other than that, I haven't hosted a show in almost 3 years now (due to work constraints with my regular job).

I fail to see what PEP suing anyone has to do with the industry continuing as they have been doing.... producing/selling music. If anything, I could see PEP finally joining in and creating/selling new song tracks for Karaoke. By New, I don't necessarily mean new songs that just came out in 2016 and 2017 (it could be new stuff never released before from the 50's, 60's, 70's, 80's, 90's, etc...).

Just peace of mind that someone isn't going to come knocking on your door with a Summons. As for Piracy going unchecked, well... it already does (even with PEP's lawsuits). There are plenty of shows out there where the host is a known pirate, and they have still gone untouched by all of this. And, with PEP's HELP program, the only thing that it's doing (for the pirates that actually are buying into it), is they still can run a show with pirated tracks. And, for the pirates who aren't buying into the HELP program, they (some of them anyway) just remove that brand from their HD. PEP isn't policing other brands... they're only policing the SC brand.

I've been in this business a while now. I was hosting karaoke before CDGs (Laser Discs in fact), so The only thing that changed for me was a complete influx of KJs with CDG's into the market. From there, it turned into CAVS and computers.

No, There was never a time I didn't have competition, and pirates changed nothing. It went from people who had a lot od CDs, to people who had a lot of songs. Of course, I pointed them out to all the anti-piracy groups over the years, but there are plenty of people who are pirates around me that have been working for YEARS.

So you can disagree with your area, but here, nothing, if anything, it's just as much if not more then before.

I've gone from 5 shows a week, to two. The kids are younger, and more then willing to take on a low paying gig. Bars don't care about sound around here, just the bottom line. After taxes, insurance, and other business expenses, I just can't compete with someone who charging $100 for the night and make a living.

Sure pirates bother me, and I'm no longer looking at "the industry" to help with the problem, that ship has sailed. So I am looking at remodeling my business to compete, while still maintaining the quality people expect from my company. I may focus on private parties more, or make a few rigs with just Zoom product (which I like) and digital downloads.

If I can overcome what this industry has thrown at me, so can PEP.

and we have shown repeatedly that you and Athena are the only ones who have benefitted from this. venues as a whole do not know who PEP is except for "those guys suing bars for having karaoke". they don't call from the certified list, your experience has been the major exception.


you would have done the same in less time, there are more pirates now than before the suits. what you are missing here is that you and the other legit hosts are the only ones who have paid SC anything.


without the suits you would have more venue opportunities to grow into.the pirates have not gone anywhere nor have their number decreased in the least...quite the opposite. you are surviving and growing because of your business acumen and attention to quality IN SPITE OF, not because of, SC suits. they do not sue pirates, they scare legit operators into paying...nothing more.

_________________
Paradigm Karaoke, The New Standard.......Shift Happens

You have a problem with the contracts, not me. You suffer more grief from contracts you never signed than those that did. Talk about living in ones head rent free (and without a contract).



My brand is solid. It's also unique. When people talk about "Feel Good Productions" in my area, they know they are talking about me, and not a larger, better established mobile entertainment company with the same name right in my backyard.

There is no feelgoodproductionsofwashington.com

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But your trolling is NOT the purpose of the OP (even though everyone knew it would be what you would do).

The questions I posted are rhetorical in your case because we all know that you aren't impacted in any way by PEP because you have told us that over and over and over. What no one understands is why you continue to prattle on if there is no impact on you before, during or after the lawsuits.

I would ask you to try to stick to the topic and actually provide a thoughtful answer, but....... The words of a liar hold no weight.

_________________
-Chris

more venues open to having karaoke and no more guns pulled on me by bar owners.


music industry, i see no change. karaoke producers, i see no change either...those that want to sell tracks are paying their licensing fees and selling to us...and we are buying a lot of music (contrary to what someone would say). retailers i also see no change, there are no real B&M karaoke stores to speak of anymore since all karaoke manus have gotten with the times and sell via download or direct burn on request. the few remaining are more affected by normal obsolescence of the physical format.


the only things that actually matter to us and venues
1) more venues available for karaoke
2) ability to expand with less financial output (paying fees that no other manu in the world charges)
3) they could return to making and selling music like Karaoke Version, SBI, Sunfly and KSF (who, after doing this years taxes, i realized have a LOT of my money) which would add more options to us as hosts to get more music for the venues patrons.

_________________
Paradigm Karaoke, The New Standard.......Shift Happens

Chris this is like Jim coming on this forum and stating that if everybody stopped infringing he would be happy, of course I'm not quoting exactly. If every host in this country stopped infringing today PEP, Jim and Kurt would be out of business. The simple truth is they have no product other than a few GEM sets they have been unable to unload. Their primary business is selling insurance to hosts that they won't be sued at least by PEP. This is in a simple term protection money, we will let you run your business as long as you pay us, that is all the license is, nothing more nothing less.

Any direct impact on me would be very minor, I have been retired for a couple of years now. However I still have friends in the business that worry that all of these legal actions will have a negative effect on their business's and incomes. Yes the pirates are out there and they have to be competed with, you can't wait for PEP to step in. If I had done that I would still be waiting instead of retired. You can't depend on some white knight to rescue you or your business, you have to take direct responsibility for your own life.

Really I don't think that karaoke itself would have much effect on the music industry. It has always been considered the low man on the totem pole as far as entertainment industry. An oddity, a fad that would eventually disappear, like mechanical bulls, disco with three piece suits, and pet rocks. It has continued but it has changed over the years. Technology is what has changed it and made karaoke affordable to the masses, at the same time compromising the mystery and fees of the hosts.

Attacking the venues is a big mistake, but it seems this is the only target PEP has left. If the suits stopped at least the venues where everyone plays pirate and legit would come out of the cross hairs. Owners will feel more confident in hiring KJ's if they did not have the threat of some defunct manu trying to shake money out of them with frivolous lawsuits. When you consider how long PEP has been at this and that they have been actually losing ground to the pirates, I don't see how anyone can say the current policy if effective. In fact the activities have only managed to get the attention of big companies like Sony and others. If they become active in wanting to get paid then it will be the end of professional karaoke hosting in public, since there will be no meat left on the bone for the host.

I don't believe this to be the case.

First, I know 9 of the hosts in WA state that are on the SC Certified pages. At least 4 of us have picked up gigs from being on the SC/PEP pages.

Second, keep in mind that there are a LOT of karaoke hosts that don't come to this forum. There are others having success without posting about it here.

Finally..... Athena and I are multi-riggers. "Success" for us looks different than success for a single-op. It even looks different for me than it does for Athena. So do not measure success based on the success of others. It's a different scale for everyone.



I don't understand what you are saying here. How could I have accomplished what I did any faster without the lawsuit? The lawsuits pushed pirates underground and gave me an opportunity to fill those gigs.

We can do the whole "woulda, coulda, shoulda" dance, but there is no logic path that lets me get to "you would have done the same in less time" without the lawsuits.



Again, I don't understand what you are saying here. This isn't Phoenix. We didn't experience the same backlash that I have heard happened there. Some venues here dropped karaoke, but many of them picked it back up again. Regardless, we don't have the lingering stigma about the lawsuits that seems to dog the Phoenix area. I personally believe that has more to do with political demographics than anything else.

I know a big part of my success is due to how I approached things as a business. But I don't discount the fact that the lawsuits opened some doors. I may have had the business sense to capitalize on that, but the opportunity had to exist before I could. I would not have been contacted by venues looking for "legal" karaoke without the lawsuits.

You say - "they scare legit operators into paying...nothing more" and this just isn't true. They also scare pirates into paying. I know at least 1 HELP licensee that has never owned a karaoke disc of any brand ever. That HELP license is impacting their bottom line every month.

_________________
-Chris

I seem to remember that Athena didn't come into the PEP fold until she was involved in a SC suit. You are right everyone's scale of success is different. You seem to feel that you need to be partnered with PEP, that your association with them has benefited you, that you don't mind paying them for a license, that is your business decision. Others feel that they can be successful without the aid and protection of PEP. In stead of relying on a defunct manu I trusted to my own skills and saved myself the cost of paying tribute to PEP, that was my choice. So everyone is on a different scale, and success is in the eye of the beholder.

Then what is the point of all the complaining about SC/PEP? Chip couldn't answer either.

_________________
-Chris

I actually do understand it.

First of all, when he says there was no impact on him, he's lying. Several years ago, when we started suing, he realized he was exposed to potential liability, and he trimmed his operations down significantly.

But that was years ago. These days, he fantasizes that he is some sort of monkeywrencher, a karaoke neo-Luddite who delights in the attempt to destroy the Establishment.

Have you noticed that after I announced that I was no longer going to respond to his attacks, he stepped them up, becoming bolder, knowing that he wasn't going to be challenged on his BS? That's fine, of course. Some people will follow his incredibly bad legal advice, and they'll end up paying a high price for it. But that's of no consequence to him personally, so he'll keep doing it until he gets tired of this and moves on to some other way he can scratch his monkeywrenching itch.

I think at this point I'm also going to stop reading his posts entirely. I already have to click on them to see them in the first place.

There wouldn't be any complaining Chris if SC/CB/PEP didn't come on these forums posting their scare propaganda. The complaints come with Jim posting on here information designed to cause fear in the hosting community and encouraging people like yourself to purchase protection.

Jim if your efforts are working how come there are more pirates today than when you started all of this legal baloney? You can't answer that one can you? Either you are having an impact or not, if you are it must be very selective in scope. Here in California I haven't yet seen one of your investigators, and I get around. Oh by the way did you ever recover the money your agents did you out of in California and Nevada?

I don't have a problem with people who believe in the PEP system when it worked for them.

But it didn't work here, either we were passed over, or any void that was created was immediately filled by other hosts legitimate or otherwise. Yes, I know the pirates who are around me, no they weren't hit with a lawsuit.

And trust me I check my zip code against the SC certified list often, there aren't that many in comparison to how many shows are out there.

Just like I'm not worried about freeware, pirates are a non issue because they will always be there.

But as never really answered your questions directly:


Nothing positive or negative would happen, It's the same as it has always been.



I think a lot of people answered this correctly: Not much if any. If the big music companies get their fees, they will be happy. Karaoke producers are making tracks available already, and retailers might sell a few more old SC/CB product to KJs who want it without fear of getting sued. If they wanted it for free, it's already out there.



Not much that is going to change with KJs. Until a lawsuit hit them, they do as they please legal or otherwise. You can only be hurt by a lawsuit if it happens to you. Everyone "knows a guy" that was in a lawsuit, but they they are, still working their gigs. The odds are in your favor that a lawsuit won't happen to you.

Karaoke is just a smaller version of the DJ business: You can buy all the songs you want to support the business we are in, but there are plenty of guys who just steal every song they own. RIAA and other agencies haven't changed that much, and they have deeper pockets then anything PEP could do.

Karaoke venues won't be afraid to hire a KJ and worry if they are going to get sued or not. So I guess that's more job to be had and more competition for me to fill my own venue.