Karaoke Forums

By george, I think she did it.  :oh yeah:

Now to think of something really witty to say there.... But, it's too early. My wit is still sound asleep on my pillow. (it's snoring too....)

TY Chuck, I've never seen that exact place before.... Charmin doesn't normally pay attention to rules & details.  :D  :wave:


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♥ Laugh your heart out, dance in the rain. Cherish the memories, ignore the pain. Love and learn, forget and forgive. Because you only have one life to live. ♥

Me too neither.

Bigdog,  we still need to discuss this,  I don't understand what purpose this serves in a Karaoke setting..  At least not to hand out indiscriminately during a busy noisy night... For the very slow night with great singers perhaps. But even so,  isn't that superfluous ?

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

(for those who needed to know)....

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♥ Laugh your heart out, dance in the rain. Cherish the memories, ignore the pain. Love and learn, forget and forgive. Because you only have one life to live. ♥

He needs something to go with the gold-plated video monitor.

I'm curious as to whether or not you really even need something of the Shure SM-58 quality for Karaoke Chuck...  As opposed to perhaps the SM-48 ($20 less), or perhaps the PG-series, (even less money)... In Karaoke you have a noisey background in many cases, you also have interference, not the best layout much of the time... I can see in some cases depending on venue the advantage of a better microphone...but a $600 microphone for Karaoke ?  I'm just wondering.  I asked this in the tech room as well

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

That's a good point Steven. I prolly don't need that kind of quality. Hopefully I will find that out after they arrive.

You also sing theatre,  and sing for your own entertainment at home, and elsewhere, I can certainly see a vocalist wanting to have the best equipment they can afford...However in a busy rowdy bar..handed out to all the young wannabe's ?  That to me is trouble waiting to happen... I certainly can see a vocalist wanting to have a good microphone... Yet when the Karaoke host hands out a $600 microphone in a busy bar, with lot's of punks around, alot of distracting background noises,  non-optimal PA arrangement,  often not top of the line PA equipment.... and a setting that's certainly no opera venue, or concert.... What's the point ?   Just something to get damaged, or stolen... A goal of some might even become "steal the KJ's microphone".  There are some settings where extravagance is not advantageous.  Just an additional headache.


I don't know the answer to this.  I'm asking.

ADDED IN:

I'm hearing more and more about experienced KJ's that are quite happy with the relatively inexpensive PG-58's...  That's a far cry from your $600 dollar microphone. My thoughts are that bringing a Cole quality microphone to a bar is trouble waiting to happen, and unless you are able to guard it with your life, or unless you make so much money you have to throw it away.... It doesn't make sense to me.

Here's a question.. what sum of $$$ (roughly)begins to bring you diminishing returns soundwise in a karaoke bar setting ? What is the tops it really does make sense to spend on your microphone  $200 perhaps (in your opinions) ?  Sometimes the more costly microphone DOESN'T sound as good because of it's sensitivity, frequency response, etc.. Not to mention risk of it getting stolen/damaged


I DO see a point perhaps on certain very slow nights when you have excellent singers showing up....Sunday night locally was veteran R&B and motown ballad night..... Bar was very quiet, and had about 20-30 of us....and the singers were amazing !   Older musicians... I certainly WOULD want a good microphone on such a night...but on a friday and saturday night ?   WHY ??

One other point ..

I have an Altec VOTT head downstair,  what made this PA sound so great was the tube distortion warmth.. Tube sound.... You put an SM-58 into that head and IMO, it offers a much more dimensional, or spatial sound, especially thru the VOTT bins...
This is an element of the amp head however... Does it pay to even put a $600 microphone into a tranny head ?  Do you get that much more in sound quality thru anything but optimal PA rig, as well as setup when you add that nice a microphone quality to anything but the best speakers, equipment, placement, room acoustics..etc ?    I can put 20 dollar guitar strings on a cheap electric guitar, and put that guitar thru an average quality amp and speaker configuration, and I've wasted my money on the strings...

I can understand

Tube microphone preamp (even Coles ribbon microphone)-------->Altec VOTT Head-------->VOTT bin stacks-------> skilled engineer and soundman running concert.

*I* hear the biggest difference in microphone quality ONLY when the microphone, or instrument goes into a highend head, with great speakers (appropriate for room) on certain volumes only...  That's an art within itself... Otherwise given standard applications, highend equipment is at best, pretentious..


This is the way I often did it..... Playing at rowdy crowded bar where there's a decent chance of theft or damage to equipment....

Guitar will have name on headstock such as Samick, Even Hondo 2.... (decent lowend necks assuming you purchase the better models)....aftermarket pickups I drop into guitar will be Van Zandt blues, or Bartolini's (this makes a difference in the sound, but isn't visible to guys with itchy fingers who want to steal my better guitar).... I'll put a few hundred into good pickups favoring the cheaper  name on the headstock.... I don't want the semi-hollow excellent quality guitars stolen. In this case...perhaps total $350 on guitar... as opposed to $1500.... Sound is adequate...

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

I'm hoping at least one of the two sets I just ordered will work for voice-over production as well as home karaoke. I have two or three others to use when rowdy people are singing.

I may, in the not too distant future, end up getting an even nicer mic for voice-overs. That is up to how well they like my sound in the beginning. I don't have a mic I want to use for that work yet. If the mics I ordered do arrive, I will be able to compare and rate them. It turns out that since I have almost never exposed my ears to the abuse that my contemporaries have, my ears work pretty well for me.

HEY NOW! I have been using a CAVS unit for 2 years. I put all my own
CDGS on it though. No complaints here.

I don't see the problem - it is just a pc with windows XP.

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[shadow=pink][glow=deepskyblue]. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
[updown]~*~ MONKEY BUSINESS KARAOKE~*~ [/shadow][/updown][/glow]

I was only trying to say that some people fell one way about it while others feel differently. It seems legal to me to use it since you have the originals.  :wave:

I resemble that rowdy remark.......

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Will sing or fish for food!!I'm not quite right!!

Yeah I guess that is the big problem with it. I don't know why people
assume if you have one you are using illegal music. As far as I know if
I would have used the music that Cavs supplies it would still be legal. I erased
all the music they sent with it. I couldn't even tell what makers they are. I spent a lot of money building what I considered an A+ song library there was no way I was
going to use their songs. Besides when I did research on the Cavs unit I heard a lot
of complaints about the grahics not matching up with the songs.

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[shadow=pink][glow=deepskyblue]. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
[updown]~*~ MONKEY BUSINESS KARAOKE~*~ [/shadow][/updown][/glow]

You reminded me of something important I should have mentioned Chuck....

Yes,  the SM-58 is a good microphone... I've seen people advocate higher end microphones to have (onhand) for STUDIO use... but I see no need (personally) in having a $300 dollar microphone... I don't know much about DI boxes, recording direct, compression, tasteful overdubbing... guitar recording perhaps....but here's what I should have stated....

Let's take $600 for the microphone....  To me THIS is what pays off.

My tube amps, and better guitars don't mean anything unless I know how to use them together, bias my amps, pay to keep the caps clean, use decent cables, and have a basic understanding that tone is also an aspect of my fingers, not just the equipment, and certainly not one componant such as a 200 dollar Monster cable...

$150 for a good Shure-beta series

*$450 for audio engineering course explaining about speaker placement, mixing, matching equipment... Speaker voicings...* <--- THIS is what's important. Integrating equipment, and setting it up.

(get a 2000 dollar microphone, but if you don't know about speaker placement, height of placement, and how to set your cabs in accordance with room you are playing...You might as well have a $5 microphone.... )



In order to optimize equipment that's excellent, you need to know something about audio engineering, and how to match your equipment.... The microphone is just ONE little component going into your chain, which ultimately ends up subjectively heard by the listener a distance from your speakers (given certain conditions you must compensate)... Audio engineering is good for ALL of us the love music to have a basic knowledge of, and this is what I was enjoying discussing with Keith....Basic stuff such as speaker engineering, height placement, etc.....  THIS is what's IMPORTANT... Even the best musicians learn they can't trust THEIR own ears at times.... So they get soundmen and hand over the control to others who can hear a bit more objectively from a further distance away given room conditions.... We are talking pro-audio IMO...when a person wants to put a 500-1K microphone into a PA stack that's going to really sound top notch.... One component doesn't do it...

I'm not criticising the $600 dollar microphone,  I'm asking if this is :sound advice: to give to newbies..... "Get costly equipment" as opposed to "spend money to learn about audio engineering and how to use the equipment you have".. To me the second is what's sound advice, from there the newbie can decide on their own what suits their purposes cost-wise.. Sure it's nice to have a $600 dollar microphone, but what else do you have ?  How sufficient is your knowledge of acoustical engineering ?

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Kap, I'll take a crack at your question about how much difference the quality of your equipment makes when you are doing a karaoke show.

In general, I believe that whether you are doing live music with a band, or a karaoke show you should use the best equipment you can afford.  

If theft is a major concern, I don't think you have to worry to much about having the basic components of your sound system stolen.  They are too heavy and too bulky.  I can be kind of relaxed about that issue because I've never had anything stolen.  So maybe I'm not the greatest expert with regard to that.

To me the difference between doing a band gig and doing karaoke lies in that portion of your equipment that comes into direct contact with the singers.  And that would be the mics.  I don't believe that the average karaoke singer has suffucient knowledge or experience to know how to care for a mic.  I don't think they'll intentionally abuse them but knowledge and experience count for a lot when it comes to taking proper care of anything.

The biggest risk I see is in the later stages of the show.  The more people drink the more careless they are about everything.  In many cases people get up to sing later in the evening because they would never do that earlier when they have not had as much to drink.  How often have you seen someone who's been bit overserved get up and start swinging the mic by the cord, just because it looked cool when he saw someone do it on TV?  They also get dropped, banged around, etc.  I think that karaoke is hard on mics and it's difficult to control that.

These days there are a number of relatively inexpensive mics around that are sufficiently well made that they work fine for karaoke.  I don't think that most people could tell the difference anyway.  I may be wrong, but my sense is that a less expensive mic will sound better with a good sound system than an expensive mic will sound with a poor sound system.  Technically, I could be wrong about that.

When I'm performing, though, I look at it completely differently.  Whether anyone in the audience can tell the difference or not, I can.  And it's important to me to have the best sound that I am capable of producing.  So I wouldn't think of going onstage with a mic that I bought at Target.  Nor would I use a guitar that wasn't pro quality.  If I'm dissatisfied with my gear, it will affect my peformance. Even though I'm not getting rich I am getting paid to perform and it's my obligation to put forth my best effort.  I can't do that unless I know that I'm giving my best. And that includes the best equipment I can afford.

Larry

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"Life is too short for diet soda and lite beer"

OK,  Like I stated,  I'm learning... Trying to understand this.. Not saying it's wrong...It just didn't make sense to me unless EVERYTHING is of equal par, and you know how to use it...



but as I stated,  you won't catch me bringing my Gibson ES-775 to a bar gig either, I don't see why even musicians in a crowded bar would have a $600 microphone.. I'm not just saying Karaoke in this particular sense....Although if Karaoke is onstage in a live performance in front of an audience type setting where room acoustics are balanced, that is a different scenerio IMO.. Friday and Saturday night at the young rowdy bar,  the $600 microphone is another source of ulcer... UNLESS of course, you are EXTREMELY wealthy... As I stated, it depends on just how much disposable income you have... and how much you can risk... Not criticizing owning the $600 microphone,  just saying it's superfluous IMO... in the crowded young bar weekend nights... It won't last long around here....

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Let me amend this abit Larry..


Rather than "best equipment you can afford"...  Why not "Optimal equipment for your applications" ? IOW... most costly doesn't translate to "best sounding" in many cases.

btw...  This is what I enjoy about these bboards, learning different perspectives... I'm honestly trying to understand if it's logical to focus on high end microphone...UNLESS it's well integrated.. In most bars, weekend nights,  I don't see this as possible.

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

One other thing..


My spelling today really sucks !

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Kap,

I guess I'm misunderstanding what you are saying.  I made a distinction between equipment I would use for a live band gig and equipment I would use for a karaoke gig based on my opinion of the relative risk involved.

I think there is a major distinction between the two.  In one case I'm using my equipment.  Any risk involved in doing that lies with me.  In the other case I don't know who will be using my equipment nor do I have much control over who uses it.

My personal risk tolerance ends at the point where the equipment comes into contact with someone else.  I would use the same sound system regardless because people at a karaoke gig aren't going to be messing around with that.  But the mics are a different story.

By the same token I would never host a "jam" at a local bar.  That's pretty popular around here.  Blues jams in particular are found pretty much all over town.  If you want to jam you bring your guitar and plug into someone else's gear.  I don't let other people use my stuff unless I know them very well.  Some people I know well but I wouldn't let them use my gear because of what I know about them.

I don't own a $600 mic nor is it likely that I ever will.  If I did I would feel a bit iffy about handing it to someone who has had 6 pitchers of beer at the bar.

Larry

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"Life is too short for diet soda and lite beer"

Really this is essentially my point.. Pro's and Con's...  When realistically weighing pros and cons of the 600 dollar microphone in the friday and saturday night bar setting.... Is it actually logical in most cases ?   That's why I mentioned laws of diminishing returns.... THere's a point when something IS NOT the best thing to do... either soundwise, or in terms of practicality.. Do you ever really need anything more than the Shure Beta-58 in a bar on a busy friday and saturday night for a mix of all ages, styles, etc ?  given risk to equipment as well... EVERYTHING weighed.

IF someone states,  "Yes, I notice a significant difference in audio quality on a packed friday night, a sound I can not possibly get given optimal speaker placement and control setting with the SM-58"

It does make sense to have the $600 microphone..

Another thing Larry,  when that microphone get's ripped off,  it's history,  any deductable I had with a midland marine policy was so rediculously high for bar-use, I don't think most things I had were really covered at that low a cost given theft as the condition of loss...

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".