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I believe this line was meant to prevent copying from a phono album, to say a casette. Or from a betamax to a vhs....... if the media is copyrighted.

the problem is the law cannot be applied to media that didnt exist at the time the law was written. Technically it isnt being transferres to other media, it is being stored for playback.

If you really want to get technical on this everytime you play a cd, you are transferring the song to another media, you are transferring it  from the recorded, stored media to the audible spectrum of the airways. You are also transfering it into the minds and the ears of everyone listening to it. Is this legal?????

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the problem is the law cannot be applied to media that didnt exist at the time the law was written. Technically it isnt being transferres to other media, it is being stored for playback.

example: if you create a new designer drug, you cannot be arrested for distribution for that drug until it had been listed as an illegal drug.

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Actually if you are'nt smoking, on the internet chatting with a 14 year old or on the mic insulting some minority then you are good to go. And if you think big bro is going to do anything constructive they are still arguing abortion, tax increases and they are still in viet nam...

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 If you take that literally, then it is illegal to play CDs at all.  All CD players transfer to other media, that's how they work.  There is no audio, no sound, no recording or anything humanly understandable on a CD.  It can be a music file or a shopping list or a picture of my grandmother for that matter and the lands and pits on the CD would be the same, it's all a matter of interpretation.  When it's on your hard drive the pattern of magnetic flux has little or no relationship to the lands and pits on the CD.
The audio is being processed in keeping with the intended use of the product.  The "fair use" decision and the resulting changes in statute, seem to support the use of any sort of player which uses the material for the intended purpose, which in the case of karaoke CDGs is to be played in public by a KJ.
You can copyright the sound, you can copyright the CD, you can copyright A method of playing the sound from the CD, but you can't copyright all methods.

That's how I came up with my warped little view.

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Okay, who took my pants?

DIDNT i JUST SAY THAT   Sounds good to me...................

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Okay...I was staying out of this discussion for a while to see where it was going to go. And, based on what I've been reading, I just CAN'T keep quiet any more.

POINT 1: When you play your karaoke music in public from your ORIGINAL disc, it is NOT a format shift. When they talk of format shift, they mean AFFIXING it to another format, like your computer hard drive. When you burn a CD, you are not space shifting or format shifting, but you ARE copying a copyrighted work without permission or authorization from the copyright holder. Both of these are illegal, but PLAYING the music is not illegal (unless your bar doesn't pay the alphabet police..but that is a different topic.) The music is not affixed to ANY medium when you play it. Now, if you BROADCAST it, that brings up a whole OTHER topic.

POINT 2: As most of us have posted before, we do not think SC and Stellar Records are having a big issue with the 1:1 hard drive users...BUT...if they come to YOUR show with a warrant, they will seize your equipment, your computer, your discs and everything you are using to run your show so they can investigate whether you run on a 1:1 basis AND it is NOT going to be investigated overnight. It might take MONTHS for them to determine that you were not multi-rigging. Just because you have your original discs at THIS show, doesn't mean your employees aren't running seven other shows without them. THEY WILL HAVE TO INVESTIGATE. And while they are investigating, you are shut down. Now, since space shifting, format shifting or whatever you want to call it, IS ILLEGAL (that's the law whether you like it or not) they CAN prosecute you and fine you and put you in jail if they so choose. Yes, it will probably be proven that you only did it for convenience, but that may not matter after they go to the expense to investigate your computers, etc. Either way, you WON'T have your equipment for awhile and you WON'T be running shows (They will need your originals also to PROVE what you have is what is on your computer) and you will NOT be making any money. IF they decide to prosecute you, and you lose (remember, it only has to be proven THAT you broke the law)you will NOT get your stuff back and you will have NOTHING to show for your investment, AND you can be fined ALOT and put in jail. Yep...sounds REALLY convenient to me.

POINT 3: Saying that your defense IS the convenience and that you are using the CD&G as it was meant to be used....PLEASE. It says on ALL Sound Choice discs: WARNING: This material is protected by federal copyright laws. UNAUTHORIZED DUPLICATION (just for anyone who doesn't understand UNAUTHORIZED DUPLICATION - This would be copying it onto another disc, ripping it into your computer, or, IN ANY OTHER WAY, MAKING ANOTHER COPY OF THE DISC OR THE MUSIC ON IT.) public performance (when you purchase the disc, it is IMPLIED that you are allowed to run a show with it. There are several other ways you can use it for public performance which would NOT be authorized), or broadcast IS A VIOLATION OF APPLICABLE LAWS.
NOW...unless the karaoke manufacturer, who holds the copyright to THEIR version of the music, AND the publisher, who holds the copyright to the original work, give you authorization, you are NOT ALLOWED, BY LAW, TO DUPLICATE the CD&G. They have NOT given you authorization, they have actually specifically DENIED authorization, so when you rip the songs into your computer and use that computer to play the songs at shows and when you burn the music and graphics (or just music or just graphics) onto another CD for use at your show, what you are doing IS ILLEGAL.
Again, whether you get caught...no idea. If you DO get caught, BY LAW, they CAN take your stuff, fine you and put you in jail. It's up to you whether you take that chance or not. If you are doing it for convenience, I suggest you look at the consequences if you are prosecuted and decide for yourself if it is still convenient, or not, should you be prosecuted.
Remember again, all that has to be proven on this is WHETHER you broke the law. Once that is proven, you are already done. The law is clear and the manufacturers have made their position clear. They do NOT, nor can they, give you authorization to rip their music into computers. The very second you did it, you DID BREAK THE LAW. By using them in a commercial environment, you are CONTINUING TO BREAK THE LAW.
We can talk all day about how unfair the law is or how outdated the law is or how much we want the law to change. BUT...until it DOES change, YOU ARE BREAKING THE LAW. I, personally, want the gas prices lowered. But if I go steal gas from the station, I am breaking the law. I don't like the law that says I have to pay for it if I want to use it. I want the law changed so I only have to pay what I think I can afford, or better yet, I think the law should be changed to make gas free to anyone who needs it. But, until the law changes, I have to pay for it and do things THEIR way or I would be BREAKING THE LAW. And, as such, they can prosecute me for NOT doing it their way. I could tell them that it was MORE CONVENIENT for me to drive away instead of paying, that I really wasn't trying to hurt anyone, but I really think they would add EXTRA time to my sentence for stupidity. No, I didn't have the original gas. No, I wasn't copying it, but stealing is stealing and breaking the law is breaking the law. If there is a LAW telling you not to do something and you do it anyway, YOU ARE BREAKING THE LAW.

Side note: Friday night, my KJ got drunk and dropped a cigarette into one of the disc boxes(HE was breaking another law at the time. There is a SATEWIDE smoking ban here.) He ruined two discs. ONE can be replaced. The other is out of print and happens to be one HE likes to sing from. I cannot replace the second disc and have to remove the listing from my books. Am I happy about this? No. Can I do anything about it? No. The law is specific. I cannot copy the disc, therefor, I am just SOL. Part of doing business.
See, you all attack anyone trying to explain all of this stuff to you, but you forget that we are all in the same profession. I would LOVE to not have to remove the disc listings, but I have no choice. The law is what the law is.
AND, what SC and Stellar are doing is a WONDERFUL thing. They are trying to get rid of the jerks that screwed up this industry in the first place. Karaoke is not a passing fad. Once the $75 a night KJs are gone, we can actually make money at this. THAT is what SC and Stellar are trying to do with this campaign. Instead of being against them, we should be thanking them and standing with them.
Yes, those of you who have already ripped everything to computer are going to be a little inconvenienced for a little while. But, as soon as they figure out how to use the computers legally, you will be one step ahead of the rest of us. AND, if you go back to using your originals for a while, it will make it easier for the manufacturers and prosecutors to catch the illegal operations. If they are wasting their time investigating YOU for your 1:1 rig, they are letting an illegal multi-rigger continue to do business.
The only reason I can see for ANYONE to be against what the manufacturers are doing is if they are, in fact, NOT 1:1 and are, in fact, illegal and it would hurt their shows to stop using a computer because of all of the songs they would lose. Otherwise, a slight inconvenience, that would end in us making the money we SHOULD be making for our investments and hard work, would be welcomed by all.
One KJ in another forum stated that he/she was going back to original discs until this was all over and that it would be hard for them because, although they started out 1:1, every now and then, it was just easier and faster (and more convenient?) to get songs from the Internet or from a friend. Now, they have to scramble to get the discs to make their rig completely legal again. THAT is why the law is the way it is. The temptation is just too great. They give an inch and we take a mile. The most innocent among us would be tempted. I mean, what would one or two out of print discs hurt, right?? WRONG. It's one or two discs for EVERY karaoke company out there. It really does add up.

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Keep it legal!!!

Careful how you approach this or they'll tax it....

It's already happened once.

There is a law on the books that requires a tax be collected because the assumption is that you'll break the copyright law.

Doubt me?  Home Recording Act of 1992 - collects a tax for EVERY tape and DAT machine sold in the US based on the assumption that you'll violate copyright law.  Also requires a 'versioning' stamp built into the tapes so that after so many generations they won't let you copy them.

Fortunatley DAT never really took off like they hoped....  I'm surprised they didn't do this with Cd's.... I'm willing to be they tried like hell though...

Getting rid of the illegals is not going to help raise prices.  The bars are fine & content paying peanuts now & still getting good turnouts, they aren't going start paying more - SOMEONE will ALWAYS do it for less & that's just a fact.



Not everyone is like that.  I've had copying capability since '97 to be able to make discs/burns.  Was I tempted to borrow to grow my library - SURE, that's human nature?  Not going to lie about it, BUT would I use a disc or song I didn't purchase in my show - absolutely NOT!  Just because I use a computer isn't going to change my morals - if I didn't pay for an original to transfer to my computer for playback, it's not going to get used in my show.  I have people every night asking if I could trade music with them, the answer is the same now as it was in the begining - NO!  I get kj's wanting to swap libraries - I tell them no, they look at me dumbfounded & ask why?  I tell them mainly because I have stuff you'll never be able to acquire legally & once you have the stuff in my selection, it no longer makes my selection unique.  They either understand or they walk off in a huff cursing me out.  Had one dude actually go to the manager of the place telling her that he could double-triple the amount of songs - after I told him no mind you - she pointed back to me & said he's the one that controls our karaoke so you would need to talk to him.  At that point he flipped everyone off & walked out.

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Revenge.... no....

Playing a CD in order to get music out it shifts format.

By the disclaimer on the disks, the whole karaoke industry is illegal.  The disclaimer means about as much as the "For tobacco only" signs in a head shop.  When SC started selling disks there was no home market so whose business were the courting?

No one is going to take your equipment.  If they did so and lost the court case they would be liable for damages to your reputation and all business losses you suffered.  If you have the CDs on site and are using the computer as a player, it would be at worst a civil matter and you would be liable for the difference between the amount of money the manufactures stood to make if you had put the disk in a player against the the amount of money they actually took in.  Or so it seems to read.

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Okay, who took my pants?

Oh Please! You're confusing the "format shifting" arguement those of us that BUY the cdgs with outright theft and stealing something that DOESN'T BELONG to you...

NOWHERE do we say that you should STEAL or profit off something that doesn't belong to you. Once again, all crimes are equal in your eyes. Therefore you can't justify anything. If you can't debate the subject point for point, please stop MAKING points! The law IS INDEED specific. But it's never been CHALLENGED in court. Just like there are OTHER ridiculous laws on the books that really shouldn't be on the books... or maybe they should be amended. Don't believe it? Google "absurd laws" and you'll see a LOT from every state that are old and no longer valid... or at least they shouldn't be by ANY modern definition of what's sane.Actually, it's YOU that's forgetting that we're in the same profession. You lump us 1:1ers as thieves AND the reason why there are your $50-$75 shows... no, the downloaders and ebay hard driver buyers are those. WE SUPPORT THE INDUSTRY, and I don't think there's ONE 1:1er on this SITE that EVER charged that low!! Also, SC and Stellar are NOT trying to get rid of the $75. a night guys/gals... they're quoting the law as it stands. Please don't put words into their mouths!BULL! it's down to the fact that you CAN'T SEE OUR REASONS for wanting to remain computerized. Fully 1/2 of my discs are out of production (yes, I recently CHECKED). To "demand" that we go back to discs would be a fool's errand for my part of this... Gee, that disc is out of print... oh, you're S.O.L.!HOW? HOW is this going to make more money for the KJS out there? THe cheap bar owners that paid for it before will find another entertainment form for the low rates... or they'll drop it. I'm ALL for shutting down these kinda shows so we're more in demand and can get the premium prices... the only thing that the SC and Stellar thing is going to accomplish is bars will not even WANT to mess with karaoke, because they don't want to deal with the legalities at ALL... PROVE that fact. Or stop making false accusations!

I currently have over 13000 karaoke and over 9000 dj. Thats about 1500 cd's. If I had to pack them around too Id quit. Now accordinh to your laws and theory to play some of the old country and big band .that I have I need to drag out a whole bunch of 33 1/3 albums and.. start packing a turntable too.

We do $500 and more outdoors gigs in the hot sun and all kinds of weather and dust storms. You think Im going to subject my cd's to those conditions?

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Wll let's see Matt by your own admission the area you were in was saturated by $75 karaokes the vast majority with illegal hard drives, burns etc.  Now by going after and shutting down these hosts, you have changed the supply and demand.  Get rid of 60% or more of hosts the market for demand remains the same but supply is down, ergo suppliers can charge more.  Economics 101.

Then you have the problem, and Matt you admitted this, that you are not 1:1 but rather 1:2 or 3 or more so you can have back up to your back up.  How is an investigator to know that you are legit.  They should believe you just because you say so.  I hope not otherwise the prisons would be empty because a criminal said they didn't do it.  Investigations, whether police or private, are very expensive, so they will not waste their time trying to descern 1:1s and multi-ops. They will just see violations.

Once again you talk about the law not being challenged and you think the law is wrong, but you're not willing to challenge it yourself.  You want someone else to do it.  You don't want the expense of a defence, and I'm almost willing to bet that you know you would likely to lose.  Because you know no one at IP JUstice is going to take your case for nothing.

Now someone mentioned that when the Copyright law was written, that computers, etc weren't invented.  That may be so.  I believe this is the quote:



It is perfectly clear that this mean any future means.   The words TO ANY OTHER MEDIA make this clear.  If they meany only tape (casstte or reel to reel) or video tape, etc then it would have specifically said so.  But it doesn't.  It says ANY OTHER MEDIA.

If you're using a compputer as a player only and not copying the media then it's just a player and no violation.  But once it copies it it's a violation.

As to Ex-weed that is such a silly statement (Using a player format shifts) that it isn't worth replying to.

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But you'll subject your computer and gear to those conditions.  Doesn't make sense to me.   We carry about 1,500+ discs to every show.  If done right, it's not a problem.  We roll them in and roll them out.

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IMO I seriously doubt that it is going to affect a kj company price this late in the game.  A few years back, yes it might have.  Like stated, bars are accustomed to paying less now days & SOMEONE will always charge less - this is part of the free enterprise, undercut your competition to get the job - some do it by any means necessary, some will have a set price that they would never go under to get a job.
It was the same around here as well, companies would multirig without owning 1 disc, or buy hard drives pre-loaded from e-bay & run their shows & charge peanuts, driving out the better 'more expensive' companies.  Didn't matter how good they were, the bar was saving money & still getting crowds (depending on location), so why pay more?  So now say they don't run illegal burns that they don't have an original for in the first place, they buy the crappiest/cheapest selections of originals they can get hold of that probably equalled the amount they might have spent on their entire hard drive to begin with, then still go out & run shows for $50-75 per night anyway & chances are they will still get the jobs - because they are cheap.    
Most of the 'good' karaoke shows here no longer exist in the clubs, mainly because people don't care, they want to get drunk & scream in the mic, the few really good shows that do exist, generally get better singers & crowds, but they are also not spending as much because they don't want to strain their voices so they don't drink.  Then MANY karaoke shows around here have either completely folded up or are now doing dj music half - or more of the night, because THIS is what is becoming the new demand again - at least in this area.  Texas Hold-Em Poker is also taking over music entertainment around here as well in other clubs - we have it 2 nights a week, but luckily we didn't lose any nights because of it - yet.  This is even cheaper for the clubs & will pack the place - if they get a company that runs multiple tables.  Figure 10 tables with 6-7 per table.

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But if you use the turntable then that will technically take away money from the cd sale since you won't be re-buying it - provided it's available to repurchase in the first place.

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No, they'll go to another form of entertainment, such as the one-mand bands, jukeboxes, djs (with the same problem we kjs have)... I've been TOLD that by several. "If it gets that bad with karaoke, I'll just turn on the jukebox!" that's not 1:3, but still, one to ONE (in operation)you'd lose that bet. I don't think I'd be wrong. I fully believe in my stance... but when you're facing 250GRAND PER violation, hey the big boys win. Hands down.

For ages there have been many professions where undercutters worked out of a temporary shed or under a shade tree. The ones that prospered were the ones that did it the best and charged a price to buy new tools and stock.

years ago I was working out of tv repair shops that had the main manus warranties and RCA and Zenith etc gave regular seminars on their products. There were people woring out of the garages and charging about half. We didnt worry about them. In fact all my friends and people I met waned me to do side work on their stuff.. I finally started te.lling them I wont even take the back off for less than $100 Then I hadda beat em off with a stick. The other day a gal told me  you should go down the tbar and see about doing karaoke wed nights.  I told her the Absolute minimum I get s $150. In the middle of this post a booked a June wedding over the phone referred by the owner of the bar I do now.

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Hope you are getting $150 for the wedding.  At least 3x150.

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Its only 3 hrs One of my old biuddies and customers I told her 300  But its going to be a teardown then quick setup for the 7:30 bar gig........

Lon I was thinking og gettng that jbl jrx 118 sp but I was lioking at the specs It weighs 90 pounds. What would be lighter one that is comparable and not as heavy?

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A good sub that is lighter, not going to find a whole lot that's worth it's weight - so to speak.  Could try the Yorkville Y118PW weighs in at 73#.
http://www.musiciansbuy.com/YORKVILLE_Y ... R_CAB.html
It's only a 200 watt sub so depending on the power of your mains, they could actually drown it out.
The JBL PRX518S weighs in at 79#.
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/ ... c=3SOSWXXK
It pushes 500 watts, would probably match up to your current system better, but it does cost more.

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