Karaoke Forums

There seems to be a major issue of "fluffing" in the showcase. I have been accused several times of "hurting" people's feelings. Several questions arose from this experience and I would like to hear what your thoughts are on several things

One) What is your definition of a "critique" versus a "just for fun" sub?

Two) are only positive comments allowed or appropriate?

Three) what type of negative(if any) critisism is appropriate

Four) Do you feel that the ranking systen is doing it's job?

Five) Do you take a member to task if you felt they left undeserved negative comments for a sub?

Six) If the previous was a "yes" Do you not believe that everyone is entitled to an opinion...or if you do... do you feel that they should be suppressed if less than positive? If so Why?

Seven) Do you want honest suggestions on ways you can improve?

Eight) Do you consider yourself to have an open mind when someone offers constructive critisism?

Nine) what circumstances- if any- would be appropriate for "fluffing" someone's sub?

Ten) Can you offer any suggestions of things that would make SS more condusive as a learning experience

Eleven) Do you Want it to be a learning experience- or just a praise committee?

Twelve) why did you sign up for SS and what prompts you to sub songs? What do you hope to get out of your experience on SS?


Please feel free to answer any or all of these questions. I'm sure that the gurus will be avidly watching to see what you say. I know I will!

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My dear Paula

It really looks like you work for the feds or state by the way you structured your questions, but I found a bit of humor in it, and decided to take you up on your questionare.

You are beating a dead horse. This is the internet, even more, it is a karaoke forum. Singers showcase?!?! You know what people want to hear; even if they tell you “be honest” Nobody here wants to hear the truth. Tell them like it is, and they get a hussy fit. When critiquing, you have to sound like grandma. Say the nice things people want to hear. So, now on to your questions:


Critique implies finding fault, just for fun means keep your comments to yourself, or blow smoke up my a$$


He-he, that is funny.


Only if you are qualified to give criticism, then it is appropriate.


Come’on, you know most of the divas (male and female) here will not settle for less then a 10


I don’t because I quit subbing (if that’s a word)


N/a


As per 4


Sure, as long as it is positive

Nine) what circumstances- if any- would be appropriate for "fluffing" someone's sub?
If you have a relationship with the person, it would be wise to fluff, otherwise you’re in the dog-box


It’s a karaoke-forum, that should say it all.

N/A


We all make mistakes, mine was subbing some songs.

My personal feelings which I will answer in the numerical order presented. Because my feelings are as follows,  I will NOT subject myself to what I believe to be a dishonest audience (Singers Showcase).

1)  Critique means "careful analysis", at the more serious level a scrutiny or critical
     analysis of an individuals presentation.  I have no right defining a term that
     already has a defintion.  Assuming we all could take such a liberty the term  
     would be reduced to complete ambiguity.

2)  Presenting something in a positive manner does not preclude :critique:, the
     experience should be viewed as a positive exchange by both parties; This
     is a difficult process & difficulty must be assessed by both parties PRIOR to
     participating.

3)  Negative criticism doesn't belong in *THIS* type of critique.  Personally,  I have
     been knocked on my A** while performing for various reasons and they were
     deserved.  Drill Sgt regiment at a certain level of performing sometimes is all
     that penetrates when we get fat-headed.

4)   HAHAHAHAHA   (sorry)

5)  I ALWAYS given my own experience consider "intent".  I've never had the luxury
     of saying anything more than "thank you" to those who've critiqued me during
     my adulthood.  I can take "to task" all I wish in my head.. My opinion matters
     little when I'm being critiqued.. Some things must just be accepted and not
     challenged. A persons opinion is their truth and It's not to be challenged. I have
     only the option of ignoring those whose comments I don't appreciate. The
     process is a humbling process that is a far cry from just a pet on the back.

6)  Answered within the content of 5

7)  If I ask for them (request for Critique) I have to want them,  right ?

8 ) I do not always have an open mind.  I have an ego, and at times I'm bitchy.
     For this reason I must NOT at times respond to a critique prior to processing
     it, and sleeping on it. What seems nasty tonight,  might be dead-on tomorrow.
     The critique can hit you in directions you don't expect it to hit from and be most
     valuable !

9)  When I was 4 and adults were trying to encourage me to like music by using
     positive enforcement they fluffed. I might fluff in the comments area assuming
     I know the person really is just singing for fun and has little other expectation.
     When it's obvious that criticism is not requested, and the person asks for roses,
     I'll throw them a bouquet.  I might also accentuate positives to help absorb what
     I felt was constructive but likely to be taken somewhat hard otherwise.

10) Allow those that wish for critique the unimpeded right to the process despite
      how it appears from your own perspective ! Understand that Karaoke need
      not discriminate against the serious aspiring professional vocalist that wishes
      to prepare for the real world of competitive performing arts which isn't a game
      of candyland.  All levels should coexist within the showcase and be respected.

11)  If it was a learning experience,  I'd be subbing ! I need it to be REAL to take
       part.  Music is real for me.  Karaoke is a training tool I use in hopes of one
       day being able to sing.

12)  I joined KS after weeks of listening to the talent and musicianship in Singers
       Showcase.  I signed up to be with musicians (singers are musicians).

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Dup post removed

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Steve- you pretty much NAILED the way I feel about SS...what about this: Do you think there is any way to have a separate section of the showcase that is labeled "singers workshop" that would make clear in the heading- whatever that may be- that this is for people who want to know their strengths and weaknesses. A "this is not a fluff section" type of thing? Perhaps "gurus that be" can evaluate certain users- who submit resumes as to their qualifications to "critique" and pass through the ones they deem qualified. That way when people sub songs- they are expecting BOTH negative and positive feedback- and it would eliminate the grumbling "who do they think they are" because they will know the only ones allowed to "critique" have been screened?

I'm not saying that ALL still couldn't listen(frankly that would be the section I'd head STRAIGHT for!)- but the gurus would have to grant the ability to "comment" only to those that were qualified to actually help- The comment option would be disabled to those that had not been approved. I also think that the approved people should be asked to critique "test" subs to make sure they are not only truthful and knowledgeable- but also posess a bit of tact.

I do think there are plenty of serious musicians that feel as you do- I know that while of course I love the compliments..I would appreciate such a comment even more from someone I believed actually knew what they were talking about. And I agree with you about the sting of a negative comment and also agree that usually the negative comment is merited(at least in my case is usually has been). Sleeping on it is a wonderful idea. But I am seriously looking for some options that would enable SS to actually "help" those sincerely seeking it. If this helps come up with a possible suggestion for this I'd love to send it to the guru and see what can be done.

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tsk tsk a tad patronising Tony

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"Be who you are and say what you feel... Because those that matter... Don't mind...And those that mind... Don't matter."

Critique: Find something to point out that, in your personal opinion, I could have done differently to enhance the song. (or, if it's the truth, tell me it's "not my type of song" and that I should move that one from my list of "to do's") If said honestly, and decently, NOTHING should offend if under a "C" sub. The word "perfect" should be one of those that get scrambled by the system on "C" subs, imo. (cause it's a dirty lil' word)

JFF: Don't lie and fluff me to death, but I don't want all my mistakes pointed out publicly.



No, but you can flavor critique with positive outlook, and make it easier to swallow.



Any, if they are truly honest. As long as it's not outright bashing or flaming, or sticking up for your friend who ALSO did the song two days before:)... You should be able to be honest, no holds barred, if you sub under "C".



If it's job is to swell egos unnecesarily and make outsiders scratch their heads with the wonder of it all, then yeah. But honestly (no fluff) hell no. Anyone would be crazy to think it's even 1/4 accurate in there.



Define *undeserved*... You mean if they are bashing me because I told them I thought a song THEY subbed needs improvement? Then yeah, I'd tell them to F' off and play somewhere else, I'm not into "scratch my back, I'll scratch yours- stab me and I'll shoot you". If they are truly giving me an honest critique, I'd never take them to task.. I'd most likely ask for more specifics and suggestions.



If an honest opinion, yes they are entitled to it, always.



In a real world it would be nice. But you can't expect that here... ever.



Again, if honest and constructive, yes... stops me from listening to the daym song over and over trying to figure it out for myself. Outside opinions are awesome.. good or bad. (if honest and unbiased)



When Charmin subs a really bad song:) (then.. and only then):dancin:



Yeah, haha, stop the fluffing. (and the anal bashing when someone dares to tell the truth on a sub)



Neither, I'm not here to "learn" anything. (other than some songs I've never heard before) Pro vocal lessons are for that. Nor am I here to be praised. I want people to listen (dur) and comment (double dur) and of course I want some people to sometimes like it (triple dur).... but I said I WANT,  I don't EXPECT them to.



Oh, we covered this in another forum. I came here to get dates:)

Paula, this is an old, OLD can of worms you've dumped out... this has been discussed so many times, in so many different ways, and it's always the same. People want different things from this site. You'll get people saying it's all just for fun, people saying it's all a bunch of bullchit in there, people being azzholes (btw, Hiya suga...) and people everywhere in between. But mostly, you'll just get one more heated argument going. Maybe not-hopefully not- but I'll betcha.

Cool thread though, as worn out as the subject is, I usually find myself responding. (and hell, as SS has changed over the years... so have some of my answers... I came here originally looking for much wanted critique... that was SO yesterday)  

.

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♥ Laugh your heart out, dance in the rain. Cherish the memories, ignore the pain. Love and learn, forget and forgive. Because you only have one life to live. ♥

This was discussed also... long ago. I doubt it would work either.

Number 1, is everyone going to trust the words of "the chosen few"? I doubt it, after all... they will be friends of some on here, and we all know, Lol, how the "friends" scenario goes. Nope, people would not even trust those kinds of critiques, most assuredly not the ones who were getting pointers to improve, and less than perfect scores.

Number 2, WHO in hell is gonna be brave enough to apply to be one of the "chosen (hated) few"? Unless they like to give critique for the sake of doing so, even though it would most likely mean they would have VERY few friends left here, I don't think you're gonna get too many applicants. Maybe, if it were people who participate on this side only... who knows.

As I voted before when this same issue was brought up, it would be interesting to see how it would go. It's much nicer, I think, when people have their personal few who critique in private... that always seems to go over better.

The numbers are what add such a scramble to it all... I don't see why people feel the need for them here.

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♥ Laugh your heart out, dance in the rain. Cherish the memories, ignore the pain. Love and learn, forget and forgive. Because you only have one life to live. ♥

Just thought I'd add this snippit from the "Karaoke History" link:

THE BACKGROUND OF KARAOKE'S POPULARITY :
The Japanese like parties. From ancient times, a party become enlivened when someone started singing and the others kept time with hand-clapping, making the atmosphere more cheerful. It has never mattered whether the person sings well or not. Even if he sings out of tune, it can spark laughter and make the party more lively.

Having such a custom, the Japanese are generous when they listen to other people sing, and can easily sing in front of others without feeling reluctance. This also seems to be one of the reasons that karaoke has been largely accepted in Japanese society.
Karaoke was born in a night amusement quarter at the end of the high economic growth period. Until then, customers used to listen to popular songs via wire broadcasting, request favorite songs by telephone, and the wire broadcasting company put the songs on the air. Such a system continued for quite a while.

However, it might be unnatural for many Japanese who like singing to only listen to other people sing.

It was then that karaoke appeared on the scene. Holding a microphone and singing a song to the accompaniment of an "orchestra," you can feel like a professional singer. If other customers give you a big hand, you feel all the happier. Karaoke has thus stimulated people's desire to sing. For corporate soldiers living in a stressful society, there is no other entertainment that can make them feel so refreshed. Consequently, karaoke immediately spread from Kansai all over Japan.



That's why I enjoy SS. The Japanese had the right idea....

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Diplomacy: The art of letting someone have it your way!
The Crooner

You're absolutely right.... karaoke is, and should be, about fun. It enables EVERYone to get a chance to sing their favorite songs, even if they've never held a mic or played an instrument before. I've said it before, I LIKE karaoke when it's a mixed crowd, I love the locals who sing off-key just as much (sometimes more) than the person who sings the same song each week perfectly. It's the mix of some good, some bad, and some ugly... that make karaoke so dang fun. Nobody need feel intimidated to try it.

What throws all this other smuck into it... is when it's karaoke (the fun type of singing)... and you add the "critique me" and the "ranking" numbers, and people start comparing, and disagreeing, and bickering about who got what and who's number is higher....

It blows the whole concept karaoke being fun. It makes it all too complicated, imo.

.

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♥ Laugh your heart out, dance in the rain. Cherish the memories, ignore the pain. Love and learn, forget and forgive. Because you only have one life to live. ♥

First of all Charmin... "I Wuv you girl"
How bout we and any others who want in form a group who make a vow to honestly critique each others subs and all the rest of the rosy glow believers can go hang! I want people like you to honestly listen and lemme know what works and what doesn't "for you" I'm looking for demographics here. Especially if you are a "rocker" or a fan of music "other" than what I normally sing...I want to know which songs cross borders and have appeal to a bigger segment of the population. I'm stuck in my little 70's r&b bubble and need to pop that thing and expand...but only with what will be marketable to the largest number of regular people.

Regarding submitting an application as a critiquer( hopefully that IS a word) ...I'd be first in line. I'm not here to be popular...I'm here to help any aspiring singers who want to improve with the knowledge I Can offer. I was helped by people when I first started...and yeah that may sound full of myself to infer that I "could" help anyone- but I don't give a rats azz. I may not be the know all and end all of singers...but I do pretty darn good...and I have been in the hot seat and had skin removed at times by critiques too so I do know what it feels like and can critique with a little compassion( one of mine was on national TV- OUCH!) ..but after the "Hurt" passed- 9 times out of 10- they were right on the money. The one thing I am not going to do ( with a few exceptions) is lie through my teeth to someone because their fragile ego that put a "c" by their name couldn't take the resulting opinions. If they don't wanna know- they shouldn't ask! The other thing I am not going to do is act falsely modest. and I'm going to all cap this next part YEAH I ADMIT THAT ONE OF MY FLAWS IS MY CONFIDENCE IN MYSELF (well some may say it's a flaw and call it conceit- others say its grounded "confidence"whatever!) I'm happy with the way I am.  I am my own worst critic and can honestly say that NEVER not one time in my life have I listened to a recording of myself and said "Now THATS perfect!" But on the flip side of that I have worked my tail off to be the singer I am ...and even though I know that I will never please everyone all the time...generally speaking "I'm d@mn good at what I do" I also DO get compensated to coach other entertainers and vocalists so my time has an established value as "some sort of expert". If someone wants my opinion(and check my comments out I know how to be supportive while offering "suggestions" for improvement) I will be happy to listen and comment...if they want "wind blown up their skirt"...all they have to do is let me know and I WON'T be upset at all to SKIP them in my "listens"


That my soap box for today...it upset me to learn that there are several pro musicians who no longer take pert in the SS section because of all the insecure people who have the big ole back scratching convention going on. I guess you all can get your popcorn out cuz it looks like I'm not going to be very well liked by some.

Now. Dennis...I did want to say that I agree completely with you about Karaoke being "fun" but that's what the little "C" and "J" are there for..."c" should mean "you are trying to improve and would like CONSTRUCTIVE feedback on strengths And weaknesses....a "J" means you know it might not be the greatest but are just having fun and felt like sharing the love.

I had a japanese friend who told me that "Karaoke" is a huge part of the culture there and while they DO have fun with it...they also hold it in respect and take it very seriously. She said it's so prevalent  that in some corporations how far a person can advance can be limited if they are not a decent singer.( I guess it's tha japanese equivalent of Golf)  Don' t know if thats true- but I've been to some japanese karaoke shows( where they didn't speak English and the lyrics weren't in English either) Everything was different from the way drinks were served( you purchased a bottle that had your name on it and it was reserved at the bar for you and your guests when you came in) to the intensity- which was pretty darn high. And I didn't see a single person there who got drunk and made an azz out of themselves. They ALL took pride in their songs. vs the few who are that serious about it at most american shows. My friend I was with warned me to not joke when i got up there because it would have been disrespectful...and to sing something that showed off my voice rather than trying to pick a "crowd pleaser". This would not have been a good time for a singer who wanted to do the drunken group sing... but it was one hell of a show! That was the best gathering of talent in a karaoke show I have ever seen outside of finals at a few of the national karaoke contests. Don;t know if that is the norm but the point I was saying is that it can be both "fun" and lighthearted...or it can be a wonderful tool for honing your skills  on a more serious level. The way that SS is set up now- it seems that the serious people end up wasting their time because no one will honestly give them anything they can use. So the fluffers and "just for fun" singers ooch out the "serious" singers and that's not exactly fair either.

I've already been taken to task and hear there are some who are "put out: with me - but I've always seemed to be the one that didn't follow the rules and looks like I'm not gonna be any different here. At leat when I tell someone they did something "right" - they'll know that I seriously MEANT it. In a way...that alone should make my comments more valuable to people who DO get them. I always heard that anything worth having is worth working for. If I don't exclusively give flattery...wouldn't you then be MORE flattered when I did- if you were the recipient. Seriously...who would YOU rather hear that you did a great job from ..."Randy , Paula, or Simon....hands DOWN it's Simon! Cuz he is the hardest to impress. Then that rosy "glow" that goes with a compliment would ALSO be accompanied by the knowledge that you "truly" did a good job!

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Wow, I'm gone for a while and this topic once again makes an appearance. I do love to read the debates though about critiquing so thanks, Paula, for resurrecting it.

Okay...here's my 2 cents: I've never submitted a song, although I am trying. My recording software isn't the best and I have to mess with all the sound buttons (not my strong point).

With that said, I guess my viewpoint is that of a karaoke watcher/listener. If I were sitting in a karaoke bar, I would NEVER give a critique to a singer, EVER. I always clap and have encouraging words and I have to admit I'm appreciative when I get it back. I'm not a professional, I'm not looking to become a professional, and I don't think most of the singers on here are either. They're just sharing what they like to do with others who like to do it too, be it great or less than great.

Now, As for the pros, I seem to remember visiting a site that was for people looking for honest critique, people who sang, played instruments, or wrote music. If I remember correctly, there was some sort of preapproved panel that did the critiquing and commenting (That would be ideal for you, Paula.) That would be a great forum for those of us looking for that but I don't think these people really want it here. They submit their songs under critique, IMHO, because they like socializing with each other. Everyone seems to know each other and are familiar with each other. They're not looking to move to the next level. They have their day jobs, their families, their friends, other hobbies.

When I finally figure out how to record a song, should I submit it under "just for fun" for fear of being fluffed or encouraged? And I say that honestly scratching my head.  Will I get lumped into those of us who are just fooling themselves? I'm not trying to fool myself. I know my abilities and limitations. I just like the camaraderie and support of one another on here. I'll keep offering my support of everyone. If someone comes on here honestly wanting a real critique because they want to take it to next level and smoke is blown up their starfish, sooner or later they'll be in a contest setting or an audition, and they'll get what they're looking for.

I know, I know. Call me in denial, but like I said, most of us (me including) are just here for fun.

Now, off to my day job...

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YOu said it yourself Tink..."critique" means - or should mean "tell me the truth, good and bad(of course it doesn't mean doing it without tact just to hurt someone) and "Just for fun" means "hey I know it's not perfect but I thought you might enjoy it" so lemme know if you did!

I'd be very interested in the site you said you found with the panel of critiquers...do you remember what it was?


till then I'm anxiously awaiting your first sub( wink) PS there is a free download program my hubby found for me called "audacity" it takes a bit to master it(i'm still in the process) but once I do it'll beat the helloutta doing 50 takes to get a good one. From what I can tell all you need is a mic on your computer and the track to load...lemme know if you want the info on it.

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Funny you should ask this, because I believe I just touched on this is a current thread elsewhere here.  I had an idea about 2 years back.  A Critique private forum, only problem is... Finding enough willing to Critique,  MANY want well constructed critiques,  few have the time to leave them given the ratio of how many would like them.  Also since we all have genre's we are limited to, some would need to have the ability to understand Classical,  Country, Etc..  We can't ALL critique ALL styles at the level that some of the really talented vocalist have.  I'm limited.  Yeah,  I could have a full-time job critiquing here,  and end up taking home a pocket full of bupkiss at the end of the week to show for it !  It takes many interested in giving the critiques too !  Unfortuneately my critiques being so intricate and musically grounded made a few others feel like lesser participants and that wasn't what I wanted at all.  A few ended up feeling "We can't take the type of time Kappy puts into that stuff"... Thing is,  assuming I didn't give it that time,  I just wouldn't consider it critiquing.  To me it's a thorough process, and burns one out quickly giving too many

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

why don't we take a poll to actually see who would be interested in doing critiques...I would...and I'm qualified to judge just about any type of music except alternative or hip hop. How bout you?

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Babe I would help you out but I am not qualified...hell I dont even know what key I sing in...useless as ____ on a bull

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"Be who you are and say what you feel... Because those that matter... Don't mind...And those that mind... Don't matter."

My Ability

Being born and raised in the metropolitan NYC area

Classic Rock
Mainstream national and international Top 40 radio
Candle-light/Easy listening/Cocktail/ Adult contemporary ballad (very strong here)
Jazz styles (Scat singing)
folk-ballad (almost all mellow style)
New Age
Glee and barbershop styles
Most R&B style (although blues can be vast, and I often defer to "OK What Now"
                          Assuming I don't know)

(for opera I ask my mother)  LMAO   <--but it's true,  she has extensive operatic knowledge.  

I don't have sufficient ability in classical singing style to be of any help.  I've arranged, started, and directed both male and female (and combined) college glee clubs and barber shop styles,  but classical excedes my ability.

What I won't critique

Hip Hop <--  I don't listen to it and have no familiarity
Liturgical
Traditional country <--  I'm not qualified
Certain international styles in non-western mode
Country styles that utilize country inflection, twang, yodeling, or nuances not found in mainstream top-40 over the last half century
Spiritual styles

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

You know, Paula, I cannot, for the life of me, remember how I ended up on that site. It was a while back, at least a year ago, maybe more. I just remember thinking, "Oh, no. This isn't what I'm looking for." But I did look around a bit and was impressed that not just anyone could critique. You had to submit an application and be approved. I just now tried to recreate a few possible Google searches and I just couldn't remember. Maybe someone will read this and know what I'm talking about.

And as far as the word "critique" goes, it speaks for itself but what I was saying was most people over on SS don't take it literally and use that feature as a way to communicate with each other, like a social forum. I'm guessing most of them hardly, if ever, venture over here, that they consider the comment feature a social outlet. I just calls 'em as I sees 'em.

Now, Paula, I've heard of Audicity and just might download it. I'm just about over the $20 bargin bin software my husband put in my stocking, bless his heart. I love him for trying. When I record a song and you have to start syncing up the vocals to the music, I'll get it syned in the beginning but then by the middle it's starting to unsync. It's really frustrating. And lately there's a terrible buzzing. I'm not about to pay for those expensive ones since all I want to do is record a song every once in a while, since that's all I have time for. Hopefully I'll have some time this weekend to do it. Thanks for the suggestion.

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I just wanted to add to one of Tinkerbells comments. I love analogies....
SS is like the Indy 500 vs. Bumper cars...

With Bumper cars everyone still wants to win but they want to win without the rules. They want to be able to crash into the walls, crash into each other and even quit for a while if they get tired of playing.

No can do in the Indy 500. If you don't play by the rules... You're out....  

I think SS is more like Bumper cars... But don't think people are not here to win...
They just don't expect to take home a $500K check if they do. Just a little ego boost...

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Diplomacy: The art of letting someone have it your way!
The Crooner

love the analogie Dennis it makes me smile and yep I see some truth in it

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"Be who you are and say what you feel... Because those that matter... Don't mind...And those that mind... Don't matter."