Karaoke Forums

I know I am guilty of singing songs that are too high for me. I would change the key except I don't have any way to do it on the media I am using at the present time except using a software solution. I haven't used my karaoke player since I got my Tascam ...

And the problem is that with the poor quality MP3 media to start off with, then rounding off the waveform to change the pitch, then downgrading the signal even further by crunching it down to hold the bandwidth limits of this server, well I don't know which sounds worse to me....

So I have never changed the pitch on any of my subs...it's not that I shouldn't have, or didn't want to...I just made the best of it...

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Imagination is more important than knowledge.

Knowledge is limited.

Imagination encircles the world...

[highlight=cadetblue]Charmin Wrote:

That's what bugs me the worst, is when the song IS in my key... all but a few little words here and there.    [/highlight]

Seriously not being "smart alec" here Char- but if you are having trouble with "a few notes" then the entire song is "not" in YOUR key- It means that it's in a Key that is VERY CLOSE to yours. So drop it 1/2 step and give her a try...You should know being a guitar player...if its the right key- then it feels right all the way through. Now if the singer is just hitting "ONE" note that's uncomfortable- change the freaking note  But if it's an entire part of the song like the high notes on a chorus- then change the key.  :oh yeah:

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Ya know I never really thought about that....

I guess that is what makes you a pro

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Imagination is more important than knowledge.

Knowledge is limited.

Imagination encircles the world...

Whoever thought changing a key is cheating? That is ridiuclous. People change keys all the time to best suit their vocal range. To say changing keys is cheating is akin to saying that rearranging a song from how it was orignially written just to make it easier to sing is cheating (o.k., maybe rearranging a song might be considered cheating, however the argument can also be made that this is simply the artists interpretation of the song). Changing keys simply can't be considered cheating since the song is the same as the original, only shifted in key.

There may be some songs which shouldn't be transposed, since it may result in giving a song a different timbre then originally intended (although I can't think of any off hand that this would be the case).

Just my $.02 worth.

Thank you Paula!  I am very glad you said people should change keys if they can't hit the notes.  I can tell you from experience that when the pros go into the studio and look at songs that some writer wants someone to desire to record, often the artist will change the key from what the song was originally written in.  The artist is not cheating.  Not only that, very often, an artist will change a songs tempo, or complete arrangement to fit their style of singing and playing.  The artist is paying to record the song, and with that comes the rights to arrange the tune to fit what they do.  I have a good friend that has been inducted into the songwriters hall of fame. He has received many awards in Nashville for his songs. The title cut on my first cd was one of his songs.  When he writes his songs, he takes a very simple version, usually a vocal with guitar track, to Nashville.  The studio in Nashville then takes the song, and arranges the tune to reflect what they believe Preston wants the songs to sound like.  The studio producer of his tracks was, at one time, played bass guitar for Kitty Wells.  The studio brings in top musicians to record a demo track of the song and then mails Preston the finished copy. Preston then sells the recording rights to his songs to prospective artists.  The artists do have the option to change the music to refelct their style.   This means sometimes changing the key, adding or changing the way a fiddle is played, the artist may add or delete some instrumentation all together to achieve what he or she wants to get from a song they are recording.  I said all of this to just simply agree with Paula.  It is not cheating to change the key on a song.  We should all be wise enough to make those changes when necessary to be able to gain the best recording we can possibly make. Just my two cents worth! By the way, the song I recorded gets quite a bit of air time on radio here in West Texas. I owe Preston a lot for pitching that tune to me and encouraging me to do my first cd!--Mike

5 string fiddles are actually getting pretty popular. I don't own one, but many in my fiddling organization have them though, and I've played them plenty of times. It pretty much eliminates that "different fingering" I was talking about, as it adds a C string. Rather than G-D-A-E tuning, it's C-G-D-A-E. It's kinda cool, but the extra string can REALLY get in the way sometimes. When you're playing double stops (which there's alot of in bluegrass and cajun fiddling) it is annoying. Orange Blossom Special? Fo'get about it on a 5 string.  LMAO  My dad thinks they are blasphemous, he wont play one. He thinks it's "cheating" on a fiddle, he's of the old school where you just play cross key if you need to:)




Yeah....   ..... those ones. I sometimes wonder if that's why I have trouble with them, cause I'm "anticipating" them too much. Cause gimme a few beers... problem solved, it loosens me up enough that I don't worry about it, and I find I can sing songs like that better.



You know... same here. I'm comfie with the range I DO sing in, I would never want to "consistently" sing in a higher range. I just don't have a very high range at all, and it irritates me when a song works but there is that ONE little part, say at the end of a chorus, that I have to think "ok... here it comes... deep breath... hope it comes out right".  LMAO



No,Paula, if it were "the chorus" I'd change the key. Chorus is okay for me I think, it's not even ONE word... more the note at the END of one word, at only one part of the chorus.  If it were the chorus or another part that was all over out of my range, then, yeah... But, to drop the key even a half step would be overdoing it for the rest of the song.  I dunno, perhaps if I ever GET time to record again, I'll sub it and you can tell me what you think. Like I said, I've hit the note fine. Other days, I'm driving along, belt it out, then look to my left and right to make sure there are no cars nearby that people coulda heard me.  :shock:  And truth is, I guess I should actually try the KARAOKE rather than just judging on how I do while singing with the original cd:)

I do have one song I sing, that I changed the note I sing. The whole "yeah, eah, eah, eah" intro to "All Jacked Up". I had to drop that down to sing it comfie... and I don't think ANYone has ever noticed that I did, it works fine. I would never lower that song either just for the sake of that one part... cause the rest of it fits me where it's at.

Any-who, if the day comes that I can record this new one, perhaps I'll let ya know and you can give advice on the key if ya feel in the mood to do so.



Ciao people... have a good day. I'm off to my daughter in laws ultra sound with her. (maybe I'll peek and see if it's a boy or girl.... muahaha)

And sorry for kinda- in places- skipping off topic.

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The idea of changing the key, except to possibly change the color of a song, should be to make the tessitura of the song fit into one's vocal range and not just accomodate those few "glorious" high or low notes (unless of course they are completely outside of the vocalists range; however, if they were outside of the range in the first place, the overall tessitura would probably be wrong for the singer). Besides, doesn't the idea of singing involve being able to push the envelope once in a while? Don't most songs have those "climax" notes which demand to be treated as such and not simply as just another part of the song?

As an example, before I even attempt a song, I see where the tessitura lies (although I have to admit I'm guilty of often disregarding what timbre of voice is called for). Even when the tessitura of the song technically lies within my normal vocal range, there are always at least a couple of "climaxes" which really stretch the range. To point this out, my vocal rangei is normally between the A below middle C (two lines below treble clef staff) to the G  right on top of the treble clef staff which is where the music's tessitura lies, but there is the always inevitable high A or B, or even a very rare C which pop up (and going the other way, I've had to sing down to a low E or F, below middle C to get the dramatic effect that the song called for).

I dont think changing the key on a song because of one or two notes is overkill. I think what the artist or singer in SS does with the overall effort in the song can stand on its own.  To change a key when necessary does not damage a songs quality or effectiveness.  The qualities a singer brings to the song can make the changes not only unique, but interesting.  I remember reading an article by George Strait some years ago about a song that was pitched to him for an album he was in process of working on in the studio.  The first time he heard the tune he did not care for what he heard. He did not like the key, he did not identify with the tempo or some of the chord structures in the demo.  He bypassed on doing this tune for that particular cd.  About a year later, he was back in the studio and the producer had taken this same song, changed the key, made some musical changes in chord progression and instrumentation for another demo of the song. Strait liked the tune and recorded it.  It became a #1 hit and sold millions of copies.  A change from the original should be expected. We are each individual and unique in our own ways.  I will admit, I have not had to change the keys on the tunes I record. Fortunately for me, I have a good range and the tunes I do have been in the right key for me.  I can tell you though if I were to try to do something by Rascal Flatts, I would change the key because I dont have that high of a range.  I would do it, and I would not feel bad about it, and whats more, I think I could sell the tune to those who heard it because I would bring my own style and bands blend to the tune that is different from Rascal Flatts, but still would be something good to listen to. Again, that is just my two cents! To me, a person should not limit himself/herself to something just because the original artist did a song in a certain key.  You are not the original artist, you dont sound like the original no matter how hard you try, so just be original yourself.  Make the song your own.--Mike

Hey Mike, I read you reply (I guess you posted it while I kept editing my reply). I want to clarify that I do agree with what you have said in principle (although my dissertation may seem contrary to this point). You made a very good point that by changing the key, it changed the color of the song- and by rearranging it, it also gave it a new flavor.

I probably did write this while you were editing.  I have to read, type, post, and run take care of students all at one time!  I think different people can take a song that I do not care for, change it up a little, record it again, and I often like what I hear from a different artist.  I can give you a good example of the reverse of that though.  Almost everyone thinks that Willie Nelson wrote the song Whiskey River. You will only find karaoke versions of this  tune by him.  If you look for someone to sing it, you will probably only find a Willie Nelson version available.  This song was really written by a Texas artist named Johnny Bush.  If you ever get the chance to hear his version, it is much different that Nelson's version.  Nelson changed the the tempo, and changed much of the chord structure within the song, especially the bass guitar and percussion lines.  His version has an entirely different flavor than the original.  People who have heard the original usually prefer the Bush version but there are many who like either the Nelson version or just like both versions equally. Who was right? Both artists were correct in their arrangements of the tune.  Both equally bring something unique to the table for the listener.  I just don't think we should ever limit ourselves to trying to be little copies of the original. I do a lot of Strait's tunes, but I am smart enough to know I dont sound like him or look like him. I just do my best to make the songs my own, usually through inflection of the notes and when my band plays the tunes, at times, we make subtle changes that most people would not notice, but they are things we feel make the music our own.  I am sure there are many other tunes we could compare and realize many times we prefer the original to the new version, but we would also find many tunes that we prefered the new version to the original for one reason or another, some oof those reasons could possibly involve key changes as well as musical structure changes.--Mike

[glow=blue]The only time changing a key is cheating is the key lock on the front door...and ya forget to tell the children!

Key changing is NOT cheating...as a KJ we do it all the time for our singers. You have a zone you feel comfy in...go for it. Or if you're like me and just want to strangle a song...and chase everyone out of the house...you keep it where it is.
Just a short melly's opinion.  :drunk: [/glow]

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Charmin wrote
[highlight=cadetblue]Other days, I'm driving along, belt it out, then look to my left and right to make sure there are no cars nearby that people coulda heard me.[/highlight]

I say........Owwwwwwwww.w.

Uh Phoenix....i'll bet that other than me and operakitty not many know the term Tessitura( wink) But I got to hand it to ya for that one! You go girl!  

And There is always room for debate on what you said about the key changing the flavor of the song. But- I'll point out that the classical style you normally perform leave MUCH less room for interpretation. There is only one "correct" way to do classical music- small style changes are appropriate- but you'd be run out on a rail if you made the major overhauls to a song that are widely acceptable in other genres. Opera is in a league by itself and I didn't initially mean to include it in this link- It just doesn't really fit. I'll change a country, soul, r&b or Jazz song so far from the original that you wouldn't even recognise them...but when I work with Symphony Orchestras- I sing it the way it was written. I may alter the key so that I can do that...but I don't change the arrangement other than to allow my vocal limitations to accommodate the tessitura( grin) I don't relish the thought of rotten food being tossed at me( )  LMAO

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Very true.  It's VERY rare for a classical "purist" to think it is acceptable to change a key on a classical piece for any reason.  The only exception I can think of is Una Voce Poco Fa which is a coloratura mezzo piece, but a lot of coloratura sopranos (myself included) up the key.  There are some pretty strong thoughts about how a classical piece "should" sound, and it's almost never acceptable to deviate from the expected sound.

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"I hold the key to an open door....will I ever be free...?"

You know, even classical pieces are transposed quite frequently. As you said, "Una Voce Poco Fa" is often trasnposed up a full step if sung by a soprano. Another case in point is a performance of "Erlkonig" performed by the great Dietrich Fischer-Diskau (viewed on You Tube). He transposed it down one step from the original, and yet this is probably one of the best performances I've heard. Of course, the nature of the song calls for a very dark and ominous sound. The point Im trying to make is that nowhere is there any cardinal rule that you should not consider transposing (changing the key) if it will work better.

Of course transposing a piece should be done with a caveat- you MAY get a sound that wasn't originally intended (e.g. you might get a light soprano-ish sound on a song originally intended to have a darker sound produced by a mezzo-soprano). On the other hand, it can also work better as well.

OK...so back on track...with the EXCEPTION of "Most" classical pieces- Changing the key, changing the arrangement , the timing, or the style of the song are not only acceptable..they are to be desired! Especially if you're talking about a karaoke song and the karaoke version of said song is out of your range. Are we agreed on that?

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Absolutely....

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"I hold the key to an open door....will I ever be free...?"

Heh.. when I read that post I was like  :shock:

Yeah, I'm familiar with the term, but haven't heard it in ages and had pretty much forgotten about it.

I don't have a key changer unfortunately.

So, if I can't make it work from the track I'm using, I just move on to something else.
But y'all know I'm one of those screechers.

The only time a key has ever been changed on me was when my kj friend did it without asking or telling me, and for some odd reason, I knew something was wrong and said, sorry I can't do this. Did you change the key? She said yes, I thought you were straining on this one the last time.
A Bob Seger song?!? Man, I must really be terrible!!

Perry wrote:

[glow=deepskyblue]The only time a key has ever been changed on me was when my kj friend did it without asking or telling me, and for some odd reason, I knew something was wrong and said, sorry I can't do this. Did you change the key? She said yes, I thought you were straining on this one the last time.
A Bob Seger song?!? Man, I must really be terrible!!  [/glow]


Owwwwwwwww!

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I do alot of key changing, if I didn't I wouldn't be able to sing any male songs.  But that doesn't necessarily mean I sing the key up on male songs; for instance, on songs by "Journey", some I have to bring down -1.  Artists like Joe Walsh or Stevie Wonder don't need any key change.  I can think of any artist I sing and know pretty much whether I need to key up or down and how many.   I sing ALOT of songs because I use the key changer.  My choice would be very limited, if I didn't, or I'd be hurting my vocal cords trying to sing too high or too low.

When I got my own karaoke equipment for home use, that's when I started experimenting with the key changer.  I often will record a song in different keys and then choose the best one.  A key change offers alot of comfort to the vocal cords.   The only drawback is when I go to karaoke and can't remember whether I need a key change. .  Sometimes the version of the song will determine if a key change is needed.  For example, the old DK 1-99 discs are often lower keyed than Sound Choice versions.  

Another thing, was on American Idol.  When they would show the contestants working on their songs with a famous celebrity, they often talked about making key changes to make the song fit their range better.  That reminded me of how often I hear aging song artists change the key to their songs and sing it lower than  they did 30 years ago.  

The only thing I can think of as to why a singer doesn't not like to change keys is because it makes the background singers sound too high "chipmunky" or too low  those "BO EO BE O UM" guys from The Wizard of Oz).  LOL .    Keeping the key minimal usually won't cause this problem.