Karaoke Forums

Not just a thread but an actual forum dedicated exclusively to Critique.  All members would have access, not just those who apply for special entrance.

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[shadow=white][scroll]Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass.....It's about learning to dance in the rain[/scroll][/shadow]

Consistency comes to mind!  I think that if someone is going to give an honest critique to a singer, then they should be giving honest critiques to all.  Unlike Listener X who gives fluff to some and then critiques others.  That is what breeds more dissent than anything else.  

If you feel you need to say more than allowed in the comments field, then add a note to the comment to say that you will PM them with more details and then do so.  That way the singer will know to go check their PM.

What should the design layout of a new dedicated critique forum look like? Can anybody give some details of how it should operate? How can it be made to do what SS or a single critique thread can not do?

Before brainstorming this idea, and going thru what we went thru with polls in the past, wouldn't it be best to find out the limitations of site software, as well as what this would entail from site administrations perspective ASSUMING administration is even willing to accomodate those of us that wish for this someplace in this forum ?
It seems we spend alot of time pondering nebulous concepts however why not find out WHAT is programmable given the current setup, and administrations willingness to expend time and effort.

For design layout,  ASK administration how it can work.  They know more about this in terms of software and feasibility of this happening at all..

Seems ONE very easy way to do this is add a :forum: similar to KJ, Newletter, Singers, etc.  A PRIVATE forum that's moderated.. Really all it takes..  As to what features this will include, and how to go about things... Democratic vote is one option, another is to follow design of sites such as Muses Muse that already have Critique going... RESEARCH this area,  find what works...  Don't just guess or shoot from the hip.  Should everybody be admitted ?  I think not EVERYBODY.. Those that have shown they have the maturity to handle the process based upon behaviour elsewhere on the site, (such as the showcase).  Make it ALL positive.  It should be an honor to be admitted because it's NOT an easy process !   Maturity, and semi-realistic concept of where a person actually stand as singers are requisite !  Need to rank "9" and higher need not apply...  If you must be near Godly as a singer, you do not belong in a Critique category. IMHO


Determinative aspect:

Rank yourself after having sung 50 songs.  If you honestly believe you are a 9.6 mean average rank singer (or better), STAY AWAY from a real critique category !  You're just too damn good for those of us that have our feet planted on earth.  Either that or enter just to teach others, and not request critiques yourself. Not sure many can actually critique the "9" mean average singers.. They are too near perfect in a real setting.

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

First off, you'd probably want to make sure people are going to actually use it...

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Satisfaction is the death of desire

That might be a tougher area to approximate initially Nathan, especially in lieu of what's been allowed to keep transpiring in the showcase.  Critique really has become a synonym for "Negative" and "Nasty" experience in it's true form in the showcase setting.  It's been allowed to be this way for a long time.  I'm assuming even if there are only 4-7 of us (of which perhaps three use the new-formed area somewhat regularly) at the beginning, I feel much of the success of such a site is the members turning it into something positive,  It's those that see Critique as something positive, and have some idea of what it takes to participate in such a setting that educate others as to what the place really is, or means...

Once a positive mood is set, I believe in time the contagion will rub-off as the stigma of :Critique: ends and people realize it's actually others doing them a favor by taking the selfless time to help them. I honestly don't think Critique ever stood a fair chance in a setting such as the showcase because exploitation of the category was never delt with, and as you already know, the category by it's true definition isn't genuinely wanted in the Showcase setting.  

I think a mature moderated Critique area, OR finally, a site where Singers who respect this art help one-another to grow,  and really look forward to LEARNING new things meaning finally, a REAL site that actually dignifies the growth process is a site that MOST would wish to join assuming they see those of us already established getting A LOT out've the setting.

Problem with the category in the showcase is that from the onset,  the term Critique was thrown into the fray allowing for the category to exist ASSUMING members HAD the maturity to use it (and weren't too lazy to find out what the term actually means). It turns out however, that to expect *that* alone to sustain the category with no true guidelines, boundaries, moderation, and generally NO accepted definition is just a wish, not something that in that environment could actually come to fruition.. What's worse, is that fallout when the category became a setting of camouflaged bashing was never dealt with, and with no direction the members were able to evolve the term and category into their current comfort level (meaning over time, those that truly wanted a critique and were emotionally honest with themselves and others ended up being alienated or ousted from the site). The whole thing was allowed to become totally @ss-backwards and fall into tumult.

Yet I don't think it should be difficult for the site to accomodate even just a few of us at the beginning ( since the intent is to grow this out) that have shown there IS a desire for something that just can not coexist with the current showcase setting..

From that point on,  it's what the first few members make of the new environment, meaning, make it POSITIVE, others WILL join.. I believe we have some VERY qualified individuals in Karaoke Scene who can direct a new Critique area.. The moderators, and serious singers recognise a need for the site. I suppose the question is.. Initially,  How many must be willing to commit to just helping the site grow assuming it's just a forum like a few of the others that are VERY slow much of the time.  Even this forum (singers forum) has gone periods of 6 months dormant.. and in spurts, it goes wild, and once again, subsides..

Just a thought, anyway

We also have something positive going for such a process.  I'm pretty sure both site super mods take their music seriously, and recognise the benefits of "Critique" in a proper setting !  I believe both recognise that showcase as it exists makes it difficult to integrate such a concept tho.   So I suppose the question is, Initially how many need to dedicate themselves ?  AND, is it fair to make certain (to keep some balance between the giving and receiving of the critiques) that for each Critique received, the recipient must be willing to offer another inidividual a critique ?  Reason being,  more want critiques than are willing to offer them in most cases.. (at least historically here in KS)

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Good points Kappy= how do we get the guru to tune on this thread and implement some changes?


But also this was a thread about the "technique" of the critique- do you think there needs to be a format people follow? Also do you think there should be a limit on how long it takes to express yourself in a tactful manner?

Perhaps a technique of stating a positive comment about a section of the song and specifically where you are fereffing to, followed with some constructive critisism along with an example of where in the song it applied, then an over positive assessment of what the singer did correctly would eliminate the "nasty" element of a critique as it now stands.

There again= tough to do in 1000 or less. It's the formula I always try to follow- and with few exceptions - I haven't been burned in effigy( that I know of)  :whistle:

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A very important thing to remember is not everyone wants a critique, especially if they don't ask for one.  Is it not possible to just sit back and enjoy listening to friends express themselves in song?

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[shadow=white][scroll]Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass.....It's about learning to dance in the rain[/scroll][/shadow]

I agree Cathi...I've seen an increasing number of people doing critiques on JFF subs, big no no in my book, if they aren't asking for it, don't give it to em'.

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Satisfaction is the death of desire

Anyone that subs under C should know that if Simon finds any feelings on your sleeve, he is going to take his finger and flick them right to the curb.  :bigcry:

It is his job to do that to see if the performer can stand the heat in the kitchen.    

But this is not American Idol, and we don't have to be like that.  

But I would agree that it is totally unnecessary to tell someone they weren't very good, even if they aren't..

I agree with the consensus view and when people ask for C you should be critical and and give praise....

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Imagination is more important than knowledge.

Knowledge is limited.

Imagination encircles the world...

That part I don't have a problem with Murl and you are very correct.  If a person subs under C then they should be prepared for a critique; then again the person giving the critique needs to remember critique should be a positive experience and not just dole out criticism.  There's a big difference between the two.

What I was talking about was the person who subs under JFF and doesn't ask for a critique but gets one anyway.  Granted there are peeps who do ask for a critique in their description who sub under JFF but if it ain't there don't do it, plain and simple.

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[shadow=white][scroll]Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass.....It's about learning to dance in the rain[/scroll][/shadow]

Ideally yes, In a perfect setting where enough care but even among some in here Listener X (I noticed has been recently submitted material under JFF, and although he asks for honesty, he's not submitting material under Critique is he ? ) Yet people are still somewhat critiquing him.  Singers Showcase is a non-moderated setting that is going to upset people that have expectations besides "just submitting and allowing whatever happens to take place."  If we want an enviroment that isn't too lazy to look up the term critique, has mature singers that respect others boundaries, and wish for more than political aligning with a certain group we are going to need to be in a site where SINGING is taken more seriously.  

The gripes are ALL valid,  that doesn't mean some in showcase care.

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

One of my beliefs in the way of critiquing that I use is:  walk a mile in my shoes method. I try out the song myself.. in other words, walk the walk, sing the song...and mix it while you're at it. It's easy to spout off to someone : this lack emotion, yout timing in this area is off, etc...get in there and you'll have a feel for it.

I have also noticed on several occasions that many have a tendency to critique another on points that they have been critiqued on by someone else themselves. It just gives me a raised eyebrow feeling. I had it done to me a number of times when I first joined and was under C. After being given a critique such as ' your voice sounds weak and wobbly', I went to that person's sub and saw someone wrote them the same critique  to them on one of their songs.

Nuff said...

That just shows a lack of imagination to me Joyce( on the copycat critiquers part) But zI like what you said about walking a mile in their shoes- cuz I do that mentally when I'm critiquing- I bever thought about it before. But yeah I DO that...then i compare what I would do to that individuals voice/ability and go from there. But I still have trouble tactfully trying to say what I need to in 1000 words or less


BTW you do give concise suggestions...you rarely fluff...and to me- you have pretty astute assessments of most people. Ypu've even slammed me a few times( but I didn't mind-wink) I wanted to compliment you on that!

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Yes mentally is good Paula but I mean actually having the experience of recording it.. in other words if I have recorded White Rabbit for example and then someone puts it up for critique.. it sure helps you feel like you fully feel comfy when you listen and give an opinion..

Awww me slam YOU??? Tickle maybe but not slam....  I'll accept the compliment though from one fire sign to another....

IMHO this would limit things enabling few to be able to Critique others, Joyce.  I don't feel a person must have the capability of performing an actual song personally to understand it enough to Critique certain areas of the composition. Assuming a person has a feel for the music style, and believes that they can fulfill the singers request regarding the song performed, add helpful tidbits, I think there's room for opinion from those that can't perform a song.  Depends on what the individual asking for the critique wants.  I prefer not to subscribe to one "carved in stone" method.

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

I didn't say that a person MUST nor that it's carved in stone but imo, it can give an understanding, even an empathy of the song, the styling and the person being critiqued.

Agreed Joyce...whatever you do- you give good and helpful comments...keep it up

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I try to consider the individual asking for the critique.  Often asking them questions prior to even listening to the song.  What are they trying to do with the song ?  What areas do they wish for me to hone in on ?  It makes the process much easier than the all too nebulous request "Please Critique my song".  I personally find the ambiguity of "Critique this" difficult.  It's helpful for me as a person delivering a critique to know at least certain specifics regarding where an individual would like me to pay close attention IMHO.  The process really can become simplified when specifics are requested, and it's a dialogue format.

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

That is a very good point Kappy...Many singers know exactly what they are trying to accomplish- and such an indepth and specific critique would be a special benefit to them.

Others may just want to see if anything "blares" out as needing work- or also sometimes I have seen people who are either going to perform somewhere, or perhaps make a cd, or even submit a song as an audition of sorts - they just want a "test audience" to listen to the song and throw back "whatever comes to mind" no matter if it's specific or general.

But you did bring up a good point when I intitally started this thread I was asking about the proper way to "format" a critique as far as written words...but its worth discussing the proper way to even approach what would make that feedback most beneficial to the singer too. Thanks for the contribution!

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