Karaoke Forums

You gotta pay ASCAP/BMI their due!  I am a member of ASCAP myself, I don;t think I will ever even get my dues back from the few songs I am likely to write in my lifetime but I do have one that I liked and decided to register the copyright and join ASCAP as sort of a vanity purchase.  Whether you are doing Karoke or singing one cover song during an evening at a totally free event for a charity, if it is open to the general public the venue, not the performer or KJ, the venue, has to have the ASCAP/BMI licens or only allow original non protected music.  ASCAP in particular does hire folks to go around and document abuse of this.  Grocery stores have to pay ASCAP/BMI if they play the radio instead of buying Muzak.  The County Fair has to pay them too so their performers can do shows on stage.

The exceptions are schools doing stuff for educatinal purposes only and Churches during the actual worship service, not the televised or recorded copies of the servece, the actual service.  Home parties where the public at large is not invited are also "Fair Use" situations as are a few other select situations but for the most part if you are in public and there is music playing that you recognize someone should be playing ASCAP/BMI...

We had a coffee shop locally that didn;t pay up, they informed all the performers that they would not pay up and made them sign contracts that said they would play only originals that were not registered with either of the services.  They still got harrased for quite some time I think but they eventually signed up paid up because people just wanted to hear covers, it's what the public demanded.

It's a small expence, less than one months light bill for most places.  They are being hard headed jerks for not paying.  It shows incredible lack of respect for musicians and writers to not pay this tiny stipend, they make money off of the work of these folks and even though the chances of normal folks getting any real return from ASCAP/BMI is pretty slim it does happen sometimes.

If I want to make a CD of some cover songs written by other folks, whether I am playing everything or hiring other folks to do or using a licensed backing track I have to pay the Harry Fox Agency to get a license for each cover.  It might come to $300 to $500 for a cd if I make less than 2500 copies.  Not doing it is kind of poor economics as the fines can be horribly punitive.  

Typically the bar getting sued will have to pay the back charges for a number of years they haven't been paying plus some legal fees and they will have to agree to keep paying from now on, shouldn't be enough to run them out of business, a parasite doesn't want to kill the host.  Their lawyers will probably advise them to settle up and we won't hear anything more about it ever.  It happens all the time really.  

A buddy of mine has a mini-golf place he just built and they came in on him because someone recognized a song being played on the speakers along the course as being registered somehow.  He paid up because to fight it is useless and way expensive.  I don't think they folks were right because I have been there and it's basically a random midi track that plays something like video game backing track sounds but the accusation was enough to get him to pay.

BSR

Yeah if you read the complaint it states down the line that the bar did not pay publisher compensation - ie ascap/bmi/sesac.  And those 5 songs were played the night the investigator (or whatever) was in which is some of the songs they represent, they didn't go after the whole library since those songs weren't performed.  I talked to a lawyer on another forum & he stated the same thing, it's basically a non-payment of publishing fees and most likely will be settled out of court with fines & purchasing the licesnes.

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Could you provide a link to the complaint? (What is a complaint in legal terms?) Here is what I get from the original link.

Am I missing something? I never could load the video.. I check the public court records for facts I see nothing about ascap bmi etc

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Hello.. Is there anybody here that is articulate with the english language? Is there anybody here that that thinks this BS helps the KJ or our business in general? There are corporate plants and lobbyists on the internet and forums now..


Am I the only one here that is cognizant of the facts?  I F^%^&give up...

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Actually Bro, this is not a problem for folks in the Karaoke Business at all.  If you purchase your music leaglly YOU have nothing to worry about at all!  The owner of the venue, the bar or club or nursing home, is the one with troubles.  They HAVE to pay ASCAP/BMI to have these tunes playing in their place of business, it is just the way it is.

As a performer you have the right to play whatever you want, the karaoke producers pay a fee to the Harry Fox Agency for using making covers of these tunes we use and they are also legal.  If you are playing the piano you still don;t have to pay anyone, it's all free for you, the performer.

If you want to record covers you must pay.  

If you have cover music playing in your place of business you must pay.

If you want to share copies of written or transcribed music you must pay.

Playing it still isn't regulated, singing still isn't regulated. listening still isn't regulated.

As far as it goes I think this DOES help folks in the legit Karaoke Business, some of you guys have THOUSANDS of dollars in your libraries!  This is a real capitol investment IMHO.  It would stink if your competitiors could just grab up all the stuff you have for a $25 download from a guy on Craigslist that says "Bring your own hard drive!"...

BSR

No need to remove anything you have legally purchased Karen.  This is about performing cover songs in a VENUE that does not have a licence to have cover songs playing in any form.  They could be sued in the same way for having the radio playing, the TV on "MTV unplugged" or a guy playing the Saxaphone in the corner.  The KJ cannot be sued for this unless he/she is using illegally ripped tracks.  Only the place of business.

It's really not our problem...

Lonman posted the link to the actual complaint, the press apparently got it pretty much wrong and it has stirred up some trouble here....

http://www.yousendit.com/transfer.php?a ... 8F0EAB78DC



BSR

Here you go Ollie  Lonman posted the above pdf file link

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Scott

All these years i was mistaken about ASCAP/BMI.

After reading the law suit and sleeping on it, it all became clear.

ASCAP/BMI doesn't charge the bars a fee because they played the music.

ASCAP/BMI sells permission to play the songs.  

If you look on any karaoke disc it says;

ALL UNAUTHORIZED COPYING, PUBLIC PERFORMANCE AND BROADCASTING  PROHIBITED

You must obtain permission/authorization to play the disc publically.

Whenever you pay ASCAP/BMI and fill out the paper work, you have written authorization to play the music.  ASCAP/BMI has just issued you a "license" to do so.  

You need a hunting license to hunt.  A Driver's license to drive.  A license to play the music.

This is how they win in court everytime.  You can not produce the required license so you are found guilty of copyright infringement.    UNAUTHORIZED USE WITHOUT PERMISSION.   You agreed to it, whenever you bought the disc.   It's full meaning may be hidden, but it's implied.



Taking out individual songs will not save you.  It covers every song ever written that isn't in public domain.

He can lose his business if he gets fined $30,000.  Can you couch up that much dough in a month?   If he can't, he will have to get a loan, mortgage his house or sell the business.  When he becomes poor his old lady will leave him for somebody with money.

I provided the link to the actual court case earlier int his thread.....Flipper verified it.  Here it is again.
http://www.yousendit.com/transfer.php?a ... 8F0EAB78DC

It's in a pdf file so you'd need to download to view.

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Exactly.  But more than likely he'lkl be fined & have to purchase the license through the company suing them.  THey need 3, ascap/bmi & sesac (international) to be covered.  I know our bar pays them - they even asked me about sesac if they should or not, I told them it's up to them, sesac is generally an international license & rarely goes after bars in the states, but technically they are supposed to - they now pay all 3.

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Was kidding about taking out those songs...The places I work at all pay for licenses, thank goodness.

If it's simply a matter of the guy not having his ASCAP/BMI licensing up to date, he's a foo.

Just curious, how much are these licenses? Are there specific or broad licenses? In other words are there multiple different kinds of licenses? Just looking for some basic info to save me from reading a bunch of legal stuff and tracking all over the internet for hours trying to research it. I'm thinking about opening a small beer and wine bar with live entertainment and Karoke and I don't know anything about this ASCAP, BMI stuff.
Thanks

I still see nothing about ASACP... I got a bridge I will sell you.  Dont you know corruption  and lies when you see it?

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In many jobs I have paid ASACP fees such as manager for the VFW  I have installed over 100 jukeboxes in which we paid the fees and we put a sticker in the window. I have nothing against ASCAP other than their latest methods such as the Bull & Bear lawsuit. This reeks  of mafia greed.

With all the lawsuits we are on the bottom of the totem pole.. Please dont misinterpret my posts. I am merely trying to be a voice for the KJ'S trying to make an honest living .. THANK YOU

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Paragraph 13 on page 4.

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Google ASCAP

You can find the form to estimate the cost for each bar.


You pay for a JUKEBOX, KJ, DJ and bands.  Bands are the most expensive.  Karaoke was the cheapest.  About $3-400 a year for karaoke.

Actually karaoke is an add on expense.  If they are already paying for pre-recorded or cover bands, then karaoke is like an extra $.25-50 per night depending on the amount of times per month.

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Page 4, point 13 pt A, B, C.

Legal junk but at least that part is clear.



I think that the problem with karaoke is that to legally run a show one needs to be paying royalties to ASCAP, BMI and SESAC to Publicly PERFORM the songs. They also need to pay Hary Fox (indirectly) for the rights to make a cover version of the song (and the karaoke making companyies should be paying that, and most do). Finally they have to pay the rights for the lyrics. THe karaoke maker also has to pay for the sycnronizing the lyrics from the music publishers. The first four are at least standardized fees, but the last is whatever the publisher wants to charge. The last one is the expensive one and difficult one to obtain for the karaoke makers. Apparently it is also the one most often abused by them. Part of the problem is that in many cases there may be dispute as to who owns the rights to songs and finding that out may be difficult.

The annoyance is that in theory all of this money from 5 different mechanisms is supposed to be going back to the same person/people who wrote the song. With 5 different mechanisms it is not odd that some bars may think "well I already paid for that song/music" they are incorrect in the eyes of the law.

If it was a more fair system, then only a single mechanism or two would exist NOT 5 different ones, but then the lawyers would not be getting as rich.

lonman, forgive my ignorance, but it seems like you're intimating that a venue must pay a fee to ascap, bmi or who ever to use legitimately purchased discs for karaoke.  i wasn't aware that the venue needed to pay dues.  i thought the dues/fees etc. were paid by the disc manufacturers and that purchaaseing legitimate discs was the only real problem.  i can't think of a single venue in which i've played that has ever paid any dues to those entities.

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They are supposed to pay these fees if they run tv, radio, background music, live music, karaoke, dj - anything that is played or shown in their club.  Even if there is a dance floor or not will factor into the fee.  Maybe you didn't know that they were paying, or maybe they just weren't paying, but yes they are supposed to and obviously can be busted for not.  None of that is covered in the purchase of the disc, these fees are the clubs responsibility.

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