Karaoke Forums

Okay, I have been trying very seriously (much to my own frustration and that of my significant other!) to wrap my head around this whole issue of the 'illegality' of harddrives and backup copies.

Here's  a scenario we're all familiar with, and some of us have even done this - For years cover bands have gone into places, set up their equipment, played cover music all night long, and have NEVER paid anyone for using their music. True, the establishments they are playing in are more than likely paying their BMI/ASCAP fees,  and fees to any other blood thirsty sharks are who are throwing their hands out for money in the name of copyright ownership.

So tell me then, how is it any different, when we have already paid our share of the royalties and publisher's rights (BY BUYING ORIGINAL CDG'S) as do our hosting establishments (hopefully), that we are lurking around the edges of illegality by playing our music off a harddrive?

Someone please tell me this. It's getting a little ridiculous, this constant "I'm right, you're not" running commentary about the illegality issues. Fact is, technology is advancing.

If the above cover band scenario stands on its own for some unknown reason, then what if they are using loops? What if they are using a click track and playing other backup music and it's playing over their speakers?

Seriously, this discussion is reeeeallly getting old.  The reality is that no one has had to figure this one out yet because there have not been any successful lawsuits to set precedent...and guaranteed, not many would be willing to risk the costs of legal proceedings to try it if they aren't darn sure they'd win.

Like you stated, most likely the club is paying their ascap/bmi fees, so this is where the artists get their money from.  So cover bands are covered under those.  If they started to record & maybe sell/broadcast/stream the performance, then things would be a different story.
When you buy a karaoke disc, you aren't paying anything to the artist, it doesn't give the right to play in public (without above companies being paid).  It just gives you the right to play the music in you personal setting.  You don't even own the music, just the media, you just have the right to play the music for personal use.  Once you get into commercial settings, then the responsibility lays on the club again to pay those fees.  When you just play the songs, it is like the original cover band scenerio, as long as the club is paying their fees.
As far as transferring to computer, the way the current laws are written for commercial use it is illegal to use any kind of copy , but since many of the karaoke companies have already said they don't have the rights to release the songs in the computerized format when some of these supposedly legal download sites come up, it's hard to tell.  I have seen Sound Choice now selling songs in computerized formats, very small percentage of their library.  They also have their 'DoPi' karaoke system in which they sell karaoke in a format for your iPoD.  So even the ones that have stated they couldn't do or didn't have the right, are now releasing in some form of computer format.  I think the laws will change at some point, will it affect the pro user so we can use the technology legally?  Who knows.
Not karaoke related, but the new Family Guy dvd of the Star Wars spoof is the first time I have seen advertised that they  granted 1 'digital copy' license so you CAN transfer/format shift to a player of your choice besides the original disc.  So obviously there are things chagning for the electronic age.

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

Some bands can't even get gigs because of DJs.

This whole work thing, about who gets jobs and who doesn't comes down to one thing.

It could be money, but mostly it's about talent.  And who can draw a crowd.

If you are good, you work a lot.

If you are bad, you stay home.  

Where do you want to be?   Get better...at your job.

   every band I have ever heard this from sucked..its harsh to say it like that, but true. like sidewinder said if you are good you are busy

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the voices arent real, but they have some good ideas

This isn't so.  The pay scale is entirely different. I've turned down gigs that'd require I throw a repetoir together (with just a blues band with 3-4 musicians) that'd pay twice what the bar currently pays it's KJ.  It's not worth it monetarily.   VERY few 4+ piece bands (that draw) will do a gig for the same sum of money the DJ or KJ asks also in some areas on certain nights, you just don't get the numbers of people supporting venues that have :good: bands. Since the 1970's bars have been able to phase out bands (even duo's) as trends and times changed.. This is the evolution I saw-

In essence, we (musicians gigging with bands) were undercut starting in the 1970's by the solo performance act (DJ) during a trend change to Soul/Funk, and as things progressed into Disco style and a different trend of "dance music" bars found they could bypass cover charges that were required slower nights to pay us.  Paying out less for entertainment dropping the cover charge-  enabled many bars to maintain enough of a draw to stay open slower weekday nights. Soon after though, alcohol laws got tougher (music style changed), DUI, extra hour license tougher to get, raising the drinking age to 21 revenue takes a hit, entertainment payout gets cut.. phasing bands out (demanding often AT LEAST 3X the payout) during a "drop in for one drink and stay perhaps a half hour on a worknight phase". FEW would pay a cover. We got weekend nights, and things started getting VERY competitive for ALL musicians for the "paying" gigs.  Mainly, Fads and styles changes too in the arts, and when styles changed, and disco was big. (People liked dancing to "Disco" which as it evolved beyond the initial "Donna Summer" phase worked well with just a DJ and a decent house system, lights, FX...)  The "Classic Rock" period wound down meaing the "British Invasion" (the decade before) was evolving to different styles such as punk, one DJ could meet the bars needs, but a new anti-alcohol phase made things very tough for bars in the 80's, and bars started closing down in the 90's in many areas...  Sure cities and resort areas weren't hit as hard..Point being, SURE,  A venue would benefit on a tuesday night having the "Rolling Stones" or a huge name, (assuming the stones asked as little as close to 1K which is what we often got per night in the 70's as a horn-band)... As bar revenue decreases payout for entertainment must accordingly adjust.   
      The DJ worked FINE, as does the KJ today in many locations... Things change, a band that is decent won't move it's equipment for DJ or KJ payscale..  How much would that be "TAKE HOME" per musician ?  Many musicians were trying the "Band in a box" thing too backing themselves using fostex 4-tracks and sequencers too in the 80's, but payout REALLY took hits as drinking age changed, DUI laws started, etc etc

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Let's look at this objectively.

Karaoke seems to be a popular draw on any night of the week.

DJs seem to be a little more limited, to me.

Sundays...Anyone thinking about going out dancing?  That's what the majority of people go to see a DJ for.  

Mondays..anyone thinking DJ?

Tuesdays...Anyone thinking DJ?

Wednesdays...Anyone thinking DJs???  Maybe..

Thursdays... Anyone thinking DJs?   Maybe

Fridays...Anyone thinking DJs?    Bands   Maybe a little more?

Saturdays..Anyone thinking DJs???    Bands???   Probably for sure.

Now it comes down to talent.  The best DJs, KJs and bands can work the most.

The cheapest DJs, KJs and bands can work the most too.  Just not in the places you want to go.  

Doesn't mean anyone wants to go see them either.

Doesn't mean they can draw a crowd.

Talent still ranks #1 as far as my money is concerned.   Your pay is usually based on your talent level.  Based on what you can draw.  Bigger crowd, more money.  More talent, bigger crowd, more money.

Talent is king when it comes to work.   But it's also based on what you as the DJ, KJ, band are willing to work for.    Homeless people will work for food.   No talents will work for food.   Quality entertainment works for money.  Good money.

Why are there actors that can get 20 million dollars a movie????   While others do commercials...TALENT...DRAW

my ex Carol was friends with a guy in a fairly successful bar band. She would go to his shows... I decided to tag along. And you know, I forgot how much I enjoyed GOOD live music. Their sax player was pretty damned good, and their lead vocalist was excellent. Drum player was more talented than anybody there gave the man credit for. During a break, I mentioned to him that I noticed he was playing double duty with the bass drums, keeping the band in time. And that I noticed his chops were very, VERY well done. He seemed surprised and mentioned that it was the rare customer that noticed these things... and yes, the bass player totally sucked! !

I feel for the bands that are immediately dissed on these kinda debates, for it's the same thing with Texas Hold'em Up Poker vs KJ or DJ VS Bands... entertainment is very, VERY fickle... it comes and goes... hence the word "FAD" as in FADES out! ! Seriously though, it's why I never committed fully to the industry, no matter my financial involvment, because something new would come along to take the wind out of the sails, and you had to determine if there was going to be room for what you do in the remaining fields.

Steven, I appreciate your views , and I would not argue against any of what you say. I do have to say that even tho im only in my mid 30s I have ben around local music for all of that time. My father was in bands from his high school days till i was in late grade school. I got involved in it myself shortly after. I  do not live in a big city, but about an hour away. In all my years around bands it has always seemed that a good local band can keep itself busy every weekend, at a pay scale that while not as profitable as some KJs and djs make still affords them to make a hobby profitable. Your never going to get rich playing in a local rock band, unless you happen to be extremely talented and make it past the local level. I know several musicians who run karaoke shows during the week to help make some extra cash on non band nights.

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the voices arent real, but they have some good ideas

What started oiut as a discussion on the legaility of playing cover music turned into a if a band is bettert than Karaoke discussion  

Comparing a Live Cover Band to Karaoke is comparing Apples to Oranges---

Sure they are both FORMS of entertainment but completely differant... (unless you are talking Live Band Karaoke).   When you go SEE a band you go to LISTEN and DANCE...   Karaoke is completely a PARTICIPATION type of entertainment ( sure there are some people that go just to listen )  When you go to Karaoke you want to BE THE BAND just for that 4 or 5 minutes per song.  Thats why the gOOD shows seem to LAST....  better audio system , better selection EQUALS better BAND QUALITY sound putting you on TOP as a singer and making you feel like a STAR
( whether you can really sing or not)

Jukeboxes - will always have a place in a bar
DJ's - will always have a place in a bar
Bands will always have a place

There is only 1 form of entertainment that offers ALL 3

****THE DIGITAL KJ********  ( SORRY KAMURGURL)

 :wave:  :wave:  :wave:  :wave:  :wave:  :wave:

The two can be go hand in hand. The band that I mix have 3 CDs recording and a 4th one coming soon. They are one of the top local original band with good air play on the radio. All the gigs are a mix of open mic (ie karaoke) and normal band set piece.
most of the gigs are long hrs and the band singers are happy to let the crowd take over the mic.
We normally start the night with me playing some soft music. then the band play a set or 6 to 10 songs. After that its open mic . People have to pay to sing with the band and  there are more singers than there are slots for them. half of the money collected this way goes to the band and the other half to the promoter. That money is normally more than contract fee.
When the band take a break normal karaoke moves in And people still have to pay to sing. We also slot in dance/dj music when thing are a bit slow (as in too many slow songs).

Yes, band, karaoke and DJ all in one is possible.

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I can neither confirm nor deny ever having or knowing anything about nothing.... mrscott

Seldom the case if the (usually at least four) adult bandmembers have professional jobs,  a wife, kids demanding their time, and don't have the tremendous amount of time it takes to travel to gigs, practice, and keep such long odd hours for what today might pay them as little as $50 bucks a head for a somewhat local gig, hauling equipment, organizing scheduling with others, etc. Problem is THE HOURS and time needed to devote to such a "hobby".  Like the KJ, a musician STILL wants to do what they do WELL, and that takes the devotion and time of not just one but at least several inidividuals.  Do you know what it's like being a musician with other real-life commitments and family demanding your time ?  Do you know what it's like to "travel" as a musician ?  In most cases there's VERY little "next door" hiring that offers the pay a musician needs to constitute what you consider "profitable hobby" all things considered (beyond ones High School years).

It's *time* that's of premium value, and playing four hours on a friday or saturday night (all things considered) for $50-$75 a musician per night in *many* locations IS NOT a profitable hobby assuming an adult values their "free time" that could be spent home after a busy week of the "real job" with the wife and kids..  MOST musicians burn out, want to settle down at some point, there are expenses  a real job, and others needing their time.  Not all are single teenagers for that long a time-span.  Don't forget I said "pay commensurate to work", and I qualified this by stating "few bands of several musicians will pack and move their equipment for the rates a single KJ gets paid in MOST locations outside of cities and resort areas".

A profitable hobby ONLY assuming the venue pays a commensurate scale with the effort involved. To me profitable hobby might be Ebaying, or investing or perhaps ANYTHING that doesn't involve the time of at least 4 adult individuals time all with other commitments, ego's and the average weekly hours these adults with other real life commitments must prepare for.  To me a lucrative hobby is something *I* can prepare for, and organize, and make some money with limited headaches involved.  Usually it does not require 3 other adults ego's too, hours of prep for what might maximally be $125 take home very locally for such hours involved.. That's NO money by todays standards IMHO

Even playing lounge piano in the 80's didn't pay enough and that was solo. Musicians can't just buy a library, some equipment, and suddenly be good to go. It involves constant practicing and organization, learning a new repetoir, and hauling larger equipment. It's physically more demanding than what the DJ, and KJ does.  You are performing the music personally, and there's less forgiveness in terms of error IMHO.  

The main reason I would state you can not compare the KJ, DJ, to a group of musicians is PAY requested to make these tasks reasonably doable.  I won't get into illegality of playing songs as a musician yet there WERE indeed some assuming a person wishes to get "technical" about this and worry about "who wants royalties and is breathing down your back for a song you just played". This all often gets down to splitting hairs, and how much a person wishes to, or can "sweat the small stuff".. A LOT of what most do everyday is ILLEGAL.  How much sleep do you lose over it ?  LMAO


:::: stepping off soapbox and heading back to "Our Lady of the Slovenly Ho" Convent, Sister Steves work is never done:::::::

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Wow, the thread did stray - I guess I should have attempted to make the comparison more easily understandable. My OP was related to the legality of both - Seems like if cover bands, all gazillion of them, can 'borrow' other people's music and make money, why is there an issue with the 'one-man/woman karaoke band' where recorded music are the other band members?  Guess I was trying to come up with an appropriate analogy.

On the other hand, the whole issue of cover bands versus DJs versus KJs, not one I care to discuss any further - it's all a matter of a million opinions. Too many variables!

K

There are laws governing tribute or cover bands just playing songs if you wish to get technical.  Recording (such as CD's for distribution) of somebody elses songs DOES require agreement, and royalties and proper channels which are VERY strict, yet just playing somebody elses song in certain venues can get a person in trouble, so even cover bands CAN be vulnerable.

If you think cover bands aren't supposed to be covered by any type licensing in a commercial setting, that's not so.  Often they are however..

Here's an interesting article written in a metro Augusta georgia paper regarding a coverband and it references incidents where BMI folks spotted cover bands playing certain bands material..  I didn't scrutinize this article, however I know even in the 70's it technically wasn't legal to play others material without coverage and licensing which the Blushing Brides, and various other coverbands had..
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You have probably never sat over your frothy mug-o-beer pondering how it is that some local musician can be allowed to perform as another. How are these melody makers able to strum another’s famous Everlasting Gobstopper of notes?

There are strict rules for that too. And two giant watchdogs, Broadcast Music Inc. (BMI) and The American Society of Composers, Authors and Publishers (ASCAP), sit above the airwaves perched with an ear towards every venue that serves up entertainment.

The venue’s proprietors have paid a licensing fee to one or the other or both so that you can hear music in many forms. The fees they pay trickle down to the original artists and songwriters.

BMI is the world’s largest music publisher. They said, “Musical compositions, like other copyrighted material, are the legal property of their creators. Copyright owners have the exclusive right to perform their own musical works in public. All others must enter into a licensing agreement to perform the music.”


Tribute bands — and cover bands — are able to belt away to their heart’s content under these agreements. If not, there could be a loud noise made.


Economy, who himself has copyright issues delaying his film’s sale, said, “I have been there when a band has done a cover song and a BMI rep was in the audience. They stake out bands that they knew are doing a particular cover, then they stand up and hand them a bill or slap them with a suit.”


Benfield said he has always assumed wherever Pink Floydian Slip played the proper permissions are part of the venue. Though he admitted, “I’ve never really asked or anything.”

While Fulop said it is not a performer’s responsibility to buy the licenses to perform the song on stage. He said, “It’s up to the venue we play to have the licensing contracts.”
But bandmates everywhere beware. Just a couple of months ago Van Halen Music Company, Jimmy Page, Robert Plant, John Paul Jones and Patricia Bonham sued a Vail, Colo., business owner for copyright infringement.


The bar owner allowed a female cover band, Lez Zeppelin, to play the various bands’ songs without these agreements in place.

The Vail Daily reported, “The plaintiffs alleged 10 counts of copyright infringement because the defendants allowed bands to play 10 copyrighted songs. The plaintiffs are suing for as little as $750 per song and as much as $30,000 per song, plus attorneys’ fees, according to court documents.”

The case is still pending.

For some who take on another’s image and sound, there can be perks beyond the regular payola. One of the best-known fairy tale-come-true tales, as shared by budding tribute artists between gigs, is the legend of Tim “Ripper” Owens.


In 1996, he was spotted playing in a Judas Priest tribute band called British Steel. The actual band approached Owens and asked him to step into departed singer Rob Halford’s biker boots.


Owens’ story was loosely interpreted in the 2001 movie “Rock Star” starring Mark Wahlberg.


We leave you with something to think about. Next time you’re tipsy in the audio euphoria of that “ABBA” bands’ version of “Dancing Queen,” ask yourself: Is that toe-tapping Swede-pop enthusiast beside you a talent scout in search of the next front man for Mötley Crüe, or a big blue BMI meanie waiting to hit them in the face with a pickled herring, err, summons.

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Question If me and Bob walk into a bar with our guitars and start singing Pistol Packin Mamma who do we have to pay? Does Dayo require more money? This is so rediculous it is totally out of hand Until we start standing and banding together they will regulate the the thing we love totally out of existence Think about it!!!!

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Join The Karaokle Singers Social Network. Upload Your Music!!

Frankly I wish some over-zealous BMI or ASCAP agent would just file a lawsuit and have the whole suit taken to court and allow a precedent to be set. Then all this discussion could be laid to rest. Until then, apparently we are all lurking on the edge of the filing of a lawsuit. As we all know too well, the music industry has taken a HUGE dump in the last few years due to  internet distribution of artists' works. Internet distribution is something they apparently have not been able to control to their liking...though doing so would probably guarantee the survival of the traditional music distribution system.

I wish they could think of it in terms of the extra exposure they are receiving - there are plenty of bands whose albums or CDs I would NEVER purchase, simply by virtue of the fact that I don't have hours and hours to sit in a record store and listen. And when artists allow for their work to be released on CDGs, they have to consider the extra exposure they are getting. If someone hands me a CD to listen to, I am often happy to get to experience a great 'new' artist (to me)....which often ultimately results in my purchasing of their works in some form or another.  

And as an aside, just contemplate that the reason we are being force-fed all this Brittany S crap - could it be because she is into the record company for SOOOO much and they have to have a way to recoup their investment in her?...Surely it is not for her artistic talent!

Fact is, if the artist's albums sell 17 million copies, and they end up with $40,000  when all is said and done (this is recently documented, btw, in a popular music magazine), we can rest assured that it is NOT the artist's who are complaining, though lord knows the old traditional way of music distribution allowed for the artist to be paid the smallest share of the contract pie. It is the big ol' boys who sit there and collect their often overly-inflated share for doing their part of it.

SK, any musician that wants to get serious and try to become famous..Doesn't hang around in local bars wishing he could get more pay.

The serious ones go to the music capitals where the action is.  The odds are higher.

So if they stay around town waiting for the big break, they will get minimum pay.

Just like the big rock bands.  Start out in the home towns.  Become famous play sell out arenas for major dollars.  4 years later, playing back at the home towns for peanuts.

All the while Karaoke remained a steady low paying gig.  

True Sidewinder,


    and of course we know out of,

UM, HMMMM...well let's say ????? ....

100 musicians (that ALL happen to have the money, and life-style affording them to make the easy move to Nashville, NYC, Chicago, LA, Branson,  and live in nice very affordable housing because of course these are among the MOST affordable places to live a comfortable life-style with very very low costs of living) ..  All 100 (of the above random number) will become big and famous in no time (since musicians never struggle in this sure-fire lavish lifestyle), so, none of the 100 will end up  returning home broke, and unsuccessful because -all- artists know there's NEVER competition in the arts..  All it takes to become famous is "make the move to a big affordable place in Central Park West", and live "high on the hog" once the decision to move and head for the pot of gold is made..  LMAO

Oh yeah,  Would you like fries with that ?  

.

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

This doesn't include all of the famous KJs either.  LMAO