Karaoke Forums

Here we go again, more unqualified mis-information being dribbled about on this forum in regards to copyright laws.  

Forget about ASCAP/BMI or any other "agent" for the copyright holder.  They are just that, agents who take a fee in return for collecting the royalties that are due to their clients.

Simply put, if you wish to record using copyrighted material, then the best thing to do is to get the written permission of the copyright holder/s.  That way you're covered!  Ya know, they might even grant you permission with no fee!  Just be aware that you will have to contact ALL the copyright holders... ie the guys who wrote the music and lyrics (or whoever else may hold that particular copyright) as well as the guys who created the recordings you are using as backing (eg the karaoke disc manufacturer).

As an example, I already have permission form the supplier of some of my backing tracks to use them for recordings...  he's not charging a fee for this.  But I will still have to find the information on who owns the copyright to the composition and get their permission.  Probably will have to use the Harry Fox or some other agency for that.

Bottom line, if you record copyrighted material and sell the recording without having permission from all copyright holders, then you will most likely be violating at least one of the copyright laws.   Hey, it's only fair that if you are using someone else's work to make a profit for yourself, they are entitled to their cut!

Performance rights have nothing to do with copyright laws [highlight=red]WRONG[/highlight] or licenses to record and distribute. Music is copyrighted through the Library of Congress. More and more musicians  now copyright but dont want to be represented by ascap/bmi but disribute and sell with the internet.

You say if the bar hasnt paid ASCAP I"M violating a copyright law? [highlight=red]Not in the bar.[/highlight]  I or my singers are not responsible to ASCAP and have done nothing wrong. Neither has the bar violated a copyright law. The bar simply does not have the proper license for Public Performance.[/quote] [highlight=red]Which puts them in violation.[/highlight]


And you, as a KJ have no right to play anything in public without it.  And no right to copy or format shift.   Or make a recording. So if you are out in public (not in a bar) and using a mobile recording studio, you need the ASCAP/BMI permission or permission from the publishers, for each and every song recorded or played.  Especially if you sell them.  ILLEGAL DISTRIBUTION.  What part of this is not understandable?

Yes they are in violation.  ASCAP/BMI have everything to do with copyright violations that relate to published music that is used without permission.  Where were you when we had this disscussion?  They issue the license (permit) to play copyrighted music in public.  Without it you are guilty of copyright violation.  Read the Lonman threads about the bar being sued.  It's the exact reason for being sued.  They have no ASCAP/BMI license.  VIOLATION of COPYRIGHT LAWS>  PLain and simple.

Make a recording in public without it and you are taking a chance on being sued for it.  And if it's from a computer even more.   Just keep piling up the charges.   You will be in so deep you will not see the light of day.  :yes:

WHAT WAS THE TOPIC AGAIN?

One time as CE of KTVS I was busted by the FCC for a incomplete trasmitter log and tower needing painted. I also  told OSHA to go to he&*  Im really intimidated. I operate with proven facts, not rumors or amateur legal advice Well it's time to start the show.....

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Pardon my stupidity on this subject, but isn't making a recording of someone at your show and giving it away for free OR profit considered "illegal format-shifting" and "copying without permission" anyways?

I've read so many opinions and articles here, but this one seems like, regardless of bmi/ascap permission....illegal..unless $$$ is paid to them. (independent labels/non bmi/ascap artists excluded of course).

Lonnie, you must know this better than most. I know you "cover yourself" (using computer) by bringing your discs with you, but outright recording and giving it away for free doesn't seem legal.
If it is, then i'll start bringing my dvd camcorder to my shows and give away free souvenirs to all the tourists.

What really puzzles me is if a manu like SoundChoice absolutely refuses to let you even make backups for yourself via computer or discs, then WHY would they agree to let you make a recording of their music and give it away?

SEEKING FACTUAL ANSWERS- not beating a dead horse.  J.R.

In this thread I provided a link to a site that explains the legalities, fully explains how to make legal recordings, gives the cost for various amounts of copies and offers a full service for a go between between you and the publishers. For anybody here if they truly want really want to legally record and distribute then spend some time on the site, fully read it page by page and without trying to read between the lines. It  is not rocket science or laden with saturated with legal mumbo jumbo. If you have questions please dial 612-522-0751.. This not about ego or whether I am right or not. I could care less what you think or do at your shows. But do not tell me how illegal I am or how to run my shows. Professionals band together and solve problems they do not sit around and argue like teenagers.

For the rest of you if you are in a bar that is not paying ASCAP or equivilent and you think you are violating copyright laws then I truly feel sorry for you. That exhibits disparity and negative philosophies and assumptions that do not work in successful business.

Have A Good Day....

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See you keep changing it.  You said links to the way to make LEGAL recordings.  Which means there must be illegal recordings.....if you don't get the required permission.  Whether that includes a fee or not is immaterial.  

There is legal and illegal.  

Without permission of some type, it is illegal.  Case closed.  Thanks Ollie

Billy, you ask "What was the topic again?"

Karyoker and Sidewinder seem to be off on their own private battle of who knows copyright law better than the other.  But their argument is relevant to the topic!

I found a couple of FAQ's that may help :

[b]10. CAN I MAKE AN ORIGINAL RECORDING OF A COPYRIGHTED SONG?

Yes, but you must contact the copyright owner and obtain a "mechanical license." You will be charged a fee, the amount of which is determined by the "statutory rate" as set forth in the Copyright Law. The current statutory rate, for the period of January 1, 2001 to December 31, 2001 is 7.55 cents per song, per recording. For the period of January 1, 2002 to December 31, 2003 it will be 8 cents, for the period of January 1, 2004 to December 31, 2005 it will be 8.5 cents, and for the period of January 1, 2006 to December 31, 2007 it will be 9.1 cents. This includes recordings of church services, concerts, musicals, or any programs that include copyrighted music.


11. CAN I MAKE A RECORDING USING A PRE-RECORDED INSTRUMENTAL ACCOMPANIMENT TRACK?

No, not without permission. Two separate licenses are necessary in this situation. The first is from the copyright owner of the work to be recorded, and the second is from the publisher of the accompaniment track. Many times these will be one and the same. Fees are usually required for each permission.


18. WHAT ARE THE PENALTIES FOR MAKING UNAUTHORIZED COPIES?

The law provides for the owner of a copyright to recover damages ranging from $500 to $100,000 per copyright infringed, and if willful infringement for commercial advantage and private financial gain is proved, criminal fines of up to $250,000 and/or five years. imprisonment, or both.[\b]


Having given you this information I will leave it up to you to decide what course of action to take regarding your question of recording your singers.  But I will say this... if it were my business and I wished to make recordings of copyrighted works, I would definitely seek permission to do so from the copyright holders.. (actually for many of my backing tracks I have already done so)...  No harm in asking permission... it doesn't cost anything to ask and could save a lot of anguish and headaches down the line.


P.S.  Karyoker is correct in saying ASCAP has nothing to do with recording (mechanical) licences... they only provide performance licences.  Any further debate on the issue of copyright should be carried out in a different forum thread than this one. (Is that too subtle?)

If you will study the definition page one re-creation is not illegal and requires no license  or fees. Copyright laws were written to prevent copying an artists work then modifying it and distributing and selling for a profit. The key word is DISTRIBUTION..  

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Obviously it was!

Murrlyn I am not claiming to be an expert. I am a retired engineer and tech  but i do have good reading and comprehension skills. I provide links with current correct info which some dont even care to read. That site says the same thing you just expressed if anybody would bother to read it.  LOL

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This old man just got back from one grueling gig. I am wound down now and so tired I cant even think. This is the end of my discussing these subjects in this or any other thread. I was not the one that turned this thread into legal arguments. I merely responded to another one of those outlandish statements I have encountered here for over 3 years and the arguments I made here I have made for over 3 years.  Someday the truth will come along and bite on the as*.You people can believe whatever you want. I will leave you in the dust.

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Yes technically it is illegal.  But I am trying to survive in a market that is not legal anymore.  MANY of our customers are going to shows that HAVE every song they want without having to wait for me to be able to buy it (they download on the spot).  Also several companies around here are recording for a fee - somtimes up to $25 PER disc I have been told, I am not charging anything.  Yes it is illegal, but I need to do what I need to do in some respects otherwise I will be out of a job entirely!



I know of a couple clubs that video their singers as well for a hefty fee.



They don't allow it.



You already know the answers.

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You need permission.   End of story.

Thank You ALL- i will refrain from EVER using my camcorder- Great info Murrlyn ,Lonnie, and Karyoker- appreciate it.

I'm an incorporated entity and don't need the trouble, or potential thereof... won't risk losing the house/wife..well maybe the wife.

"We now return you to our regularly scheduled program"....whatever that was!

Camcorder? I was in the broadcast industry and have a fairly good knowledge of public taping We have taped many stars at the county fairs. Of course when completing an interview and then tapingthe show what copyright laws really apply? Blaw. Blaw. Blaw La Ti %$$%^^& Dah It is the same thing one tape with no distribution does not require a license You do have to obtain the people's permission to broadcast or put it on the net. What country  do you people live in? I will not give up> I know what the laws are for I have observed them as a professional for decades.

BTW a broadcast station or those streaming music with an inhouse music distrubution  system and not paying RIAA is not violating copyright laws. RIAA might think this but court cases have ruled for the ones being sued time and time again .

But I guess that those that think karaoke is so different and needs special laws and needs to be run in a very different way than standard business will disagree again.

You can fool half the people all the time but you cannot fool all the people over half the time unless they are emotionly involved with karaoke..

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Ollie, i mean DVD camcorder, and NOT to broadcast- just wanted to tape singers and give away free souvenirs like a few other kjs do. Don't need or want the potential trouble, that's all!

Then contrary to popular belief you have no problems. When the day comes that we cannot tape family functions, our friends at karaoke, or anything else and enjoy them at home in our privacy and share with relatives then I will store some more black powder in a dry area in the basement. I am tired of the attitude on this forum where we no longer have rights and have to depend upon big brother to save our business. I Live In America.

Does anybody here know the best powder for 50 calibre? I would think 2400 black but it might be too slow burning for that big of a hunk of brass. It is the standard powder for 44 magnum.

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If the tape contains copyrighted music you have a problem.  If you broadcast it in public.  For your private viewing, no problem.