Karaoke Forums

Of course you're right Tim.  

Meanwhile, I asked in my last post, in effect, who is the arbiter of what a problem is and who is a bad singer?  


And Ml_Texas feels it necessary to comment not only on someone's singing, but on their appearance, as well!

Jian responded to that direct question stating we all know who sings off key and off tempo and "off this and off that"  Is that really so?  
Well, not everyone does know who is off!  Sometimes people don't know that someone is "off" simply because they as the listener are completely unfamiliar with the song being sung!

And is it worse to have someone come up and sing "off", or is it worse to have someone come up to the mic and then realize that they have no clue how the song is suppose to go?   As a KJ I am more challenged by latter circumstances than the former.

Now, back to the question of the "problem(s)" caused by bad singers.  Who has experienced, with any regularity, a verifiable problem with some bad singer.  Are you telling me as a KJ you can't, as Timerlea suggested, handle a bad 4-minute performance two or three times a night?

And even if you're categorized known singers at your show to be a problem, how many unknown problematic singers do you have in your audience that have yet to reveal themselves to you.  

IMHO, if you "put down" the known "problem" singers, you'll assuredly
discourage many who are trying to build up their courage to sing and never will attempt it after seeing how you handle "bad singers"

Lastly, per my last post I said:


It seems that the subtlety of my remark went right over the head of Jian, and perphaps others.  My point was that while this individual knows what is technically sound when it comes to singing, he only criticizes his own performances!  He never criticizes the efforts of others!  Yet, there are those of you with much lesser qualifications than that trained individual who are ready to categorize and ostracize challenged singers!

What? You don't know what you are talking about. Maybe you should ask your PRO-TRAINED singer friend.

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I can neither confirm nor deny ever having or knowing anything about nothing.... mrscott

Jian,

    Evidently Eric has never heard our duet "Leather and Lace".  Send it to him,  the points about "Judging" and "Who has the right to deem something subjective as bad", additionally  issues regarding "Time and place for the lesser abled singers" will become clearer when he learns just how disturbing "bad" can actually be to any animate objects that can perceive sound-waves, and experiences firsthand how certain audible sounds can induce seizures, acute hypertensive crises, and severe stress to the autonomic nervous system.


     I don't think anybody is advocating kicking bad singers out Eric, but I think most of us HAVE experienced the abrasive affects of the LOUD screaming dissonant singer. I believe the KJ should work accordingly and at least try to make it a more tolerable experience for the listeners too when possible because in some cases, despite all the philosophical chatter regarding aesthetics two people can have, odds are both these individuals will cringe when they hear the TRULY loud obnoxious BAD singer. Some bad singers don't recognise how bad they are,  others of us have the common sense to know "I can hear therefore I exist and I suck", but since karaoke isn't Julliard Vocal tryouts for scholarship, the KJ SHOULD indeed make the experience a fun experience for all involved.  Seems to go with the territory.  I think sometimes using psychology, and board tweaks, it can help a bit in the cases of the wannabe brash screamers trying to outdo Sam Kinisons Wild Thing, on a mellow Monday night when the bulk of the crowd is the Andy Williams type...

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Regardless of their talent level.  They all bring in green American money.  That is why you are there.  You are not Simon of American Idol.  You are not getting paid to judge anyones talent level.    Play their song, shut up and treat them like a real person.  When they are done you introduce them with the same enthusiasm as the best singer you ever heard.   All my singers are equal.  Some are just better than others.

If you start to make fun of anyone, the word could get around and then you will be on the losing end of the deal.  I tell everyone that was great.  EVEN IF I'M LYING THROUGH MY TEETH.    Who doesn't like to get stroked once in a while?   Ever get tired of hearing you did something good?   Won't happen enough.   Happy people come back.  They will tell others about the great KJ at Sam's Lounge.   Your good words get returned from others in many ways.

Sometimes you have to hide your laughter, sometimes their situation could make you cry.  But every singer is trying the best they can.  In their mind they sound like the winner on American Idol, under the brightest spot lights, in front of a 1,000,000 people.   Wouldn't you like to be there too?   Don't you ever crush their tiny dream.

I have had some mentally and physically challenged people come in to sing.   One guy in a wheel chair couldn't even hold his head up or control his arms or legs.   You couldn't understand one syllable he sang, let alone any words.   But the smile and the happiness he showed was unbeleivable (i'm crying now just picturing this guy).  AS he sang (fighting back my tears, and thanking GOD that it wasn't me, and being so glad that i had done something to bring a tiny bit of joy, into what has to be one very miserable existance) I watched that crowd like a hawk and if anyone would have made the slightest bit of fun of him, i would have CLEANED THEIR CLOCK UNTIL THEY NEEDED A WHEELCHAIR.

I am happy and proud to be able to make someone's life a little brighter.   This is not a perfect world.   We all need love and recognition.   Nobody ever gets too much.   It's only karaoke.  That means let them have fun.  Let them sing off key.  There will be a place for you when you die.

That sounds 99% healthy to me !!!  Only difference that would've made it 100% was if I'd typed it !



Amen,  I was nominated for the plot near the fire-hydrant in SingSnap.  Where folks walk their dogs,  my singing is just that impressive

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

I was left with the impression that this thread was about "bad singers", ya know, singers that are off-key, off-tempo, "scratching the blackboard" kinda bad.

Steve K, however, generalized the definition to include singers who make us cringe, including those who are loud, obnoxious, screaming, and dissonant.  Well, that definition of "bad" would encompass a good deal of the rotation around any college campus once the crowd has gotten a "few under their belts"!

I know that there are performances I simply endure while others in my midst consider them to be "good".  I'd really prefer not to hear "New York, New York"; I don't want to go through another chorus of "Sweet Caroline oh, oh, oh";  I cringe at the thought of hearing another Elvis emulator!  BUT I listen to all, as I would like to be listened to, and then applaud when they are done!   IT'S THAT SIMPLE - it is not at all hard to do.  

Since it seems that I must expand upon the nuances of my thinking (listen up Jian) I add the following:  I agree with Steve K. that the real problem is probably not "bad singers", but bad performances (loud, obnoxious, etc).  While everybody might agree that Steve K's "Leather and Lace" is horrible, at what level above that performance would one consider a "better" performances to still be "bad".   I have listened to singers whose styling, vocal quality and intonation have really grated on me, while my wife and others thoroughly enjoyed that person's performance!  So, clearly, my opinion would matter little if I wanted to complain about it.  Now assuming that I actually have the right to complain about another's performance, can I do so only when my opinion is the same as everyone else’s?  If my opinion is different than most others (but I hated the performance) do I have the right to “lobby” others that a particular singer was really a "bad singer"?  And when I say everyone else hated a performance, does absolutely 100% of those in attendance have to be in agreement in order for a “bad singer” to become a “problem”?  If 100% of the people are not annoyed, what percentage has to be annoyed in order for that "bad singer" to still be declared a "problem"?  What if three people actually leave the premises due to that singer, do those three (because they left) become the arbiters of "bad"?  And if three people leave, is it the "bad singer" who is the "problem" or are the three discourteous customers, who demean another individual's efforts, truly the "problem"?

So, again, who is the arbiter of "bad"; who sets the "bar"?  Who decides as to when a performance goes from "great" to "good" to "not so good" to "just ok" to “not so bad” to "bad" to "really, really bad" to “a problem”?

Also, this thread basically flowed upon the assumption that a "bad singer" is a regular who is known to you and the audience.  Imagine that at every show you have one or two new singers, ones who will never return (from out of town or whatever) who have the same effect.  So, what would you do then?

As an aside, I would include among "bad singers" those that spew vulgarities even if they are in the original lyrics.  I'm not for hearing the "f-word" no matter how well it is sung.  Meanwhile, this forum can't agree on whether singing profanities is a "problem", or not!  Sometimes, at my show, the profane lyrics in a song catch me by surprise. I just lay back to see how the crowd reacts, because while I have my opinions, I am not the final arbiter of what works at my show and what is a “problem”!

I believe that a good KJ finds ways to make everyone, particularly singers, feel welcome and to maximize the appeal of each singer to the audience.  I am not suggesting that the latter is easy to do, but it's your job to figure out how to accomplish that for each "regular", whether you classify them as a "good" or "bad" singer.

Think about it.  You wonder what distinguishes one KJ from another; what makes one show more appealing than another?  Everyone wants to feel appreciated. Get out there and make that happen and you will have the best show in town.  It's not first and foremost about your selection of songs, how much you spent on your sound system or the quality of singers in attendance, it's how people "feel" about being out at your show!!!

So you are the authority with the credentials.

As for me and my singing: I am bad, a very bad singer;

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I can neither confirm nor deny ever having or knowing anything about nothing.... mrscott

Actually Eric,  The OP stated this verbatim in his post.

He explained that while he agrees there are singers with tempo problems "generally" considered to be minor, and problems that can be helped out (or what I interpretted to mean somewhat tolerable for others expected to function and also be able to carry on enjoying themselves within close listening proximity).  The OP also gave (what in my opinion) is a fair qualification of what he deems as :bad: meaning "the ones who are always way off key and make everybody cringe. Nails on a chalkboard" bad. What this means to me, is that if you get a person on the microphone and said person starts creating abrasive noise that induces paleness and distasteful expression on the faces of around 80% of bar customers sitting at the opposite side of the room (Similar to the expression on the faces of those on a DC-9 that hits an air-pocket and feel as tho the plane keeps dropping and dropping creating that weightless sensation where ones stomach comes up thru the mouth) you have what is in fact generally considered an annoying person.

I believe the Original Post pretty much explained by using as an example "nails on a chalkboard bad" his interpretation of bad, and qualified extent.  Granted,  there will be some that don't react, and the dead in the cemetary across the street might not roll over.

Seems (and yes, to me) that adults over 21 even in a bar, and EVEN in a karaoke setting STILL have some degree of responsibility to not create nuisance activity that is likely to be disruptive to others "playing" in the same playground. Some degree of etiquette applies EVEN in bars and karaoke venues !



We are talking about adults coexisting within a social atmosphere with other adults. Some social skills are requisite.


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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

It sounds to me that MOST of the PC (politically correct) responders here are responding negatively to the ones who actually are saying what they FEEL.

WE ALL get annoyed...don't we? (don't go splitting hairs Steve)
WE ALL know to have more patience with handicapped individuals.
WE ALL know we get paid to cater to all singers, regardless.

But when someone posts their feelings and it's not PC...here comes the inflexible ones trying to solve the problem- there IS NO problem to be solved. The PC's act as if they operate like machines and have no emotions- Bullfeathers!!! Or i should say Chicken-Feathers!

There are a few here that like to share their thoughts AND feelings on topics. THAT's HOW you get to understandings- leave ONE out and you'll never get there. IMHO!!!  :hug:  :hug:

I've been agreeing with this.   *or-so I thought I was*

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Oh i don't know.....your posts are too long to read.  :drool:  :hug:

You mean my New Years resolution to be concise is going unnoticed ?

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

No, let's just say you need a bit of practice on the execution.

True !   Still have over 10 months left in 2008 however !  Cutting back a word a day might help ?

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Regarding the statement I made, I was refering to a show I visited. I am not a Kj, I am a performer with a band that plays every weekend and most weeknights on stage somewhere around my area. Whle visiting a friends show on a night that I happened to be free, I was responding to the comments made that suggested that confidence could make the person who sings consistently off pitch a better singer, and the idea that taping someone singing and giving them the tape would help singers who sing off pitch. I was told this particular lady is a regular singer at my friends show. This show is not in a bar, it is out in the open in a mall.  The owners / managers of stores nearby phone in complaints against this lady when she sings.  She actually thinks she is on pitch all the time.  The reference to her appearance was not to degrade her, but to show that even with her apperance and poor singing, she has tons of confidence.  When she sings, there is mass exodus for any available door, then they return once she has finished singing.  My friend's boss (the mall entertainment director) told her to not let her sing.  My friend told the mall director that she felt she should let her sing because it was karaoke and free for anyone who was in the mall that wanted to sing.  I agree! I think she should have the right to sing the same as anyone else.  I feel my friend did the right thing in telling the mall director what she did as well.  I did suggest to my friend that when the lady gets up to sing, she should turn the mains down and keep the monitor's up so that the lady hears herself.   The audience, on the other hand, hears mostly music and very little of the performer.  This has been beneficial to the store manager / owners nearby who were complaining as well as the mall director and the people who attend.  Which by the way, my friends show is attended by several hundred who come to be entertained, not necessarily to sing.  She says she has a great rotation of singers but her job does not hinge on how many she has sing.  Her job is determined by how many people are sitting in her audience providing entertainment for people in the mall.  I realize that her situation is much different that most of you who are doing karaoke shows in bars where your job is to keep customers happy and buying drinks.  The point is, many of the mall business people as well as the mall director feels as do many of the mall customers that this particular lady is very offensive. I certainly, feel that she should be given equal chance to sing.  I agree with Steve, as adults, we should be responsible for what we do in a public setting that annoys others.--Mike

Oh my gosh, how EVIL!!



I still think, no matter how hard it is on the ears, EVERYone should be welcome to sing, and as often as they want. I've heard some that are horrid... and some that make you want to run out of the room before the *giggles* break loose...  :shock:

But it really is for everyone, from the god awfullest (is that a word?) singer to the best of the bunch...

No matter who you are, or what you sound like... there are always going to be some people who don't like your singing anyhow. I say live and let live. (sing & let sing?... whatever)

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♥ Laugh your heart out, dance in the rain. Cherish the memories, ignore the pain. Love and learn, forget and forgive. Because you only have one life to live. ♥

OMG,  You've got me laughing so hard my eyes are watering Mike.  Reason being, THIS is the exact problem I have with "Fluffing" the poor singer who wishes for honesty.  It *IS* tough to hear ourselves with objectivity,  and unfortunately with enough boosting and encouragement,  I too could see myself being as successful as this woman clearing out a mall faster than a fire alarm.

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

If you're ever wondering why some people on this board think your ego is out of control, this post is a perfect example of it.  It's not enough for you to tell the story, but you have to make sure we all also know how it affected YOU, and how YOU were ready to kick some butt and how YOU brought joy into this guy's life.

Dude, get over yourself.

ml, this info would have been appreciated earlier.  A mall is different than a bar that has karaoke.  That being said the host was right to say what she did,  If the entertainment director did not want this lady to sing, then he or she should have the b@lls to tell the lady not to sing AND NOT put the host in the middle.

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You can be strange but not a stranger