Karaoke Forums

I'm old enough to be told to put a penny in the slot for a penny loafer, although it'd been passe' for many a year when I did it! !

Donny, I can assure you he's not talking about you.  Not going to get into detail tho, can't.  Yet I understand how this wouldn't be evident to most.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That aside-

Others in the past (in this forum and on this site) have posted as if they are sole sources of credible info. Others have posted in condescending ways too, yet haven't received the castigating and scorning responses Sidewinder has been receiving which target him, rather than directly challenge posting content.  It just doesn't seem balanced to me,  Sidewinder posts in an emphatic manner disagreeing yet attacks nobody directly, however gets attacked and Sidewinder is the only person receiving warnings.  The guy's been attacked since shortly after he joined here yet he's not only rolled with punches, but he's clearly become an ongoing target, yet ONLY HE has received warnings.


Regarding Rules...

Sidewinder stated "Posting rules in the front in flourescent coloring works"..
I don't know if posting rules anywhere is 100% in certain large young and rowdy venues. The enforcement is what becomes more of an issue.

I'd question if ANYTHING really works in a young rowdy very large venue where you have over 400 drunk kids UNLESS there is proper enforcement of rules- meaning doorman, some security, or individuals that will see to it that equipment isn't abused, and if not the venue allows a KJ total discretion of banning such individuals who are infracting rules from participating, enabling him to enforce his rules regardless of where they are posted.   In some venues you can post rules every 10 feet, and stamp them on the back of a persons hand but in some venues people are going to be much less likely to adhere to rules, so enforcement of rules becomes the bigger issue in such venues.  What works one place doesn't necessarily work across the street.  There's no ONE WAY that will work in all venues with equal ease



Sidewinder,  how does this apply in a very large venue with several hundred young rowdy kids ? or are you saying it's the enforcement of rules and there's an agreement between KJ and other bar employees which doesn't enable things to get to the point of equipment destruction ?  Maybe posting rules alone isn't really what stops the violation of rules... Is it enforcement and how strict a venue is in general assuming the venue is prone to infractors ??  Dunno

_________________
Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

L.O.L @ bouncer, doorman or security!!

C'mon Steve! You're a musician! When you run a karaoke show and you get that stuff, let me know. I've been running karaoke for ten years, and only had security at the place I started at, mostly cause they had gangs coming in all the time and stirring up crud!

Other than that, I did it ALL!

OK, so I admit, I've been out've work for a few years.. Would you like fries with that?  LMAO


It's true Matt,   The larger bars in this area that are over 7000 sq ft with a capacity of 500+ that DO have KJ's in a main room have doormen,  and bar security.  They have to up here !   Again, demographics...  Makes a difference.. Types of venues.. Granted the term "Bouncer" is passe tho !  and again, my area doesn't likely compare to your area, or when you were in the Portland area, or Donny's area up in Mass (one state up from me), or somebody elses even in New Haven within the same state.  Things are just very different depending on location. I keep saying "Demographics matter" for a reason, exact location need not be divulged, but city, outskirt, or rural entertainer,  and age as well as size of his/her venue MATTERS alot in this type discussion.

The very large venues ALL have doormen up here !   These aren't small 1000 sq ft venues that have karaoke up in this central Ct area Matt, MOST of those either ended entertainment (all but one or two nights per week for a few hours tops), or folded in the 90's.   The small club/bar that might have a pianist, or happens to have a KJ (and I know of none within close proximity to me) DO NOT need to post rules anyplace, they don't attract the type of crowd or numbers a bar employee can't easily control, in fact most are hurting for customers..

There's some things people assume in these discussions, but they can't be assumed; DEMOGRAPHICS matters !

The venues that have Karaoke in one room up here usually have MANY rooms 10+ pool tables, arcade games, darts, often over 50 televisions, often several bars.. The small one room bars for the most part in my area DO NOT have entertainment,  they can't afford to stay open weekday nights after dinner crowd for the most part.. Seriously,  Demographics and venue types can't be assumed..  I'm not familiar with the types of west Coast venues and midwest venues that have Karoake... Such places do not exist around me..  We don't have small "one room" bars that have karaoke.. Not around here.

_________________
Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

I've seen photos and even cam's of a few of the west coast bars that have Karaoke,  they look like a lot of fun..  Such small sq footage venues do not exist here as anything more than small dinner restaurants that have a bar and TV, they are closed by 10 PM weeknights, and usually 11 weekend nights, no after hours entertainment in this conservative location.  That type venue ended in the 1980's up here.


The large venues that have survived, and have a draw MUST have some security, and doormen up here..  Most of them also have cops lined up in the parking lot.. Gangs are a problem unfortuneately at the larger venues.. Sounds funny in a location such as this, but Hartford has gotten nasty, and the kids travel to these bars, and recently closed a couple !

Location, location, and location... I just don't assume an alcohol serving establishment that has entertainment up here is anything at all like a bar around the California area, Portland area, or midwest..  Stuff is quite different depending on location.  I wish I had the guts to pack up and move to a place like Portland, Seattle, or a western area... I'd have work !


btw, I like all of you folks alot, but there doesn't seem to be any possible way Sidewinder can defend himself, or should even have to defend himself against the dislike that's channeled at him.  He's been placed in a lose-lose situation from the onset because many are certain he is somebody else, and abhore his posting style,  and rather than ignore what they dislike are determined to have a go at him..
Seems in all the musician rooms a few were "Guitar Gods" and knew more than everybody else (at least their posts dictated that).. Some knew a lot but came on too strong, yet still, that within itself never constituted a tos violation, or scenerio warranting attack..



Yes,  get together with bar-backs, bartenders, butch waitresses, or whoever will help you enforce YOUR rules within your venue Eric, make sure management knows them too !  Sounds as tho the problem is weakness in enforcement given type venue.. Or some insecurity because you lack backing and support.

Besides somewhat frequent announcements, and posting them, seems in some venues it's going to be tough to not have to personally say "no" to people who don't regard rules.. Some larger venues ARE tougher to handle.. Similarly I suppose some larger venues aren't for the faint of heart to entertain at (meaning folks such as myself now-adays).. Plenty of places I'd not wish to entertain at because I know I personally couldn't handle them.. I'd also fear due to setup arrangement getting my equipment damaged.  These are real concerns. I think the key is having the support of others working in the venue knowing they are with you and will back your rules.  Communication with others employed in the same venue because I think your concern is enforcement regarding those that WILL not read or follow rules, and such individuals exist.

Jesus,  you've got me cracking up with rule one Ollie, if this isn't one of your jokes I don't know what is real vs a  joke..


Point being

(Rule #1)  a few friends we have made on the internet that are older and respect a "code of the road" living in rural colorado aren't to be used as a microcosm of what exists amongst national entertainment  industry competition.


(It'd be great if the only competition entertainers had to worry about were local friends made in chatrooms)



I'm old enough to sell the penny I take out to a coin collector, too bad the patent leather Penny Loafers have little collectors value, of course a few here will be taking the 1943 Steel Cents out've their loafers, Ollie will take Indian Head cents out from between his toes..



This isn't accurate Ollie, assuming agitators were tos'd from here a few of us (YOU INCLUDED) would be long gone or at least have warnings !   So we've been here a few years, what makes us so special ?  The forum is a forum for ALL..   What's good for one should be good for all !  You can't have it both ways, you too like some slack cut for behaviour at times, right ?

_________________
Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

DB, my post and story was not about you.  Just a guy with the same name. (true story)

Knightshow,  I post from my experiences.   And the results they have received or not received.    When you post should we doubt your stories?    Ask for dates and times and verifiable witnesses?

Steven, i'm poison stay away, lest you be branded with a scarlet letter.  (thanks all the same)

Karyoker, no troll just a KJ, like you.

The ultimate rule enforcer should be the bar owner.   Many, many nights the bar owner is nowhere around.  Not even in the building all night.   So then it falls to the bouncer, if there is one.  If not it's on the bartender.   I have seen many a girl bartender get tough.  Throw people out.  :O

You as a KJ have to let every singer know exactly what you expect from them.  As far as their behavoir with you equipment.

I have rules and they are there for all to read.    If someone is clowning around with a microphone, i try to get to them as quickly as possible to avoid it being damaged.   If i have to i'll call them out over the PA system.   I can not depend on bar owners to even be there, let alone enforce my rules.

The DJ, KJ, or band does have a lot of influence on the bahavior of the crowd.    Songs you play or words you say over the microphone, can calm them down or make them riot.     Make them act normal or turn them into animals.   I try to lead the crowd down the calm and normal path.   Sometimes one or 2 stray but you have to bring them back or let them go.   If they want to be animal, they can go with my blessing.   They are all welcome until they cross the line.  That line is drawn by me as far as my equipment and show.

At Lonmans show a line was drawn by the bar owner about the type of music and exceptable language.  Lonman still has his own line of rules relating to his equipment and his end of the show.   Singers can not read minds.  So if you don't let them know what the rules are, they will assume they have none.   That would be your own fault.     Can't always blame the singer.   But they should also know what would be acceptable behavoir as far as respecting others and your equipment.   That's a common sense kind of thing.    But alcohol tends to make it fuzzy sometimes.

Knowing rules will be enforced and an infractor will be "86'd" is crucial IMO. I think the problem unfolds when patrons feel the rules don't mean a thing. Sometimes the only way to let a few rowdy youngun's and older folks alike know rules matter is to have them see somebody thrown out've the venue for breaking rules.  Quite honestly, I'd be pretty dang uncomfortable working a venue where I had no backup assuming it was prone to rowdy behaviour at any given time.





It's funny you mention this because sometimes drunken 22 year olds ( or even older folks) revert back to childlike behaviour, and when a woman gets tough they backoff like they are kids and mom is going to "get out the switch" and give them a butt whopping..  Just a psychological thing, sometimes females that know how to handle such situations are MUCH more affective among drunks..  Yet I'd still need to know there's some backup that can handle brawls..  Some kids just aren't prepared to go against a female disciplinarian when caught by surprise be her assertiveness and officious behaviour.  Sort've like animal trainers, doesn't always take the 7 foot male to train the toughest attack animals..



OK,  I guess that means I have to go back to Singsnap and learn to sing.. Heck, figured I'd do anything to procrastinate !!  

_________________
Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

In your wildest imaginations..  When you give us an address to your gig then all will accept you. Until then sit down and shut up and quit rolling your eyeballs at us. I really thought in order to join this forum one had to be at least 13. Sit down AND SHUT  UP  Everybody is laughing at you.. If you really think I am losing sleep over this when I go to the fridge to get another beer the false karmas here are mute in 1/2 second.

Please let go of your mouse for a few seconds and get hold of yourself.. HELLO!!

_________________
Join The Karaokle Singers Social Network. Upload Your Music!!

I really do hope someday you find self. You will not find self on this forum. In the meantime please dont come on here and insult the people that have dedicated many years of their life to this profession. From this moment on you will not get any response or acknowledgements to your posts.

_________________
Join The Karaokle Singers Social Network. Upload Your Music!!

There ought to be a R*U*L*E* on this forum that no can post anything until they have read the original post and any subsequent posts form the original poster
As a consequence of following such a rule, there likely will be fewer incidents of threads going way off of the original topic, such as this one did.  

SPECIFICALLY:
  - I didn't request any disparaging remarks on my ability to run my show.  Which, in spite of what SteveK may think, is exactly what "Sidewinder" offered!
  - I didn't state or imply that, generally speaking, I was having any problems with people complying with the "rules" at my show.
  - I did imply that there is information ("rules" and other general information) that isn't always being conveyed to those in attendance
  - No one was, as of yet, miffed by the actions of the person I finally removed from my show, and no one is miffed by his being removed.
  - As I reiterated already in this thread, I simply used a problem that I  had encountered as a reason to start this thread and ask for input on how other KJ's get the attention of those in attendance regarding, for example: the "rules"; or how many songs each singer will be allowed to sing (at "that point" in time); or where the listing of new additions to the catalog can be found; or where the Christmas/holiday songs can be found; or the need to hand my wife the song request slips, etc

You already answered your question. You've posted the rules, you announce the rules.  So in your particular case, you can only stand behind them. "There will always be people" that don't pay attention (actually they don't care as much as you'd like them to) is the answer in your particular situation.  Jam also added to it in his 3 point post regarding "A bar is a bar".  There will be times you do have to tell people individually "no", or if not you (assuming this is hypothetical or a carry-over thread) anyone in a similar situation will at times be forced to go 1-1 with a patron.

Some layouts, and venues you can't expect to get all to adhere to etiquette despite what you do, a bar isn't a convent or executives Christmas party.  Alcohol induces slovenly behaviour

(JMO)

_________________
Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Sorry Eric If I did get carried away in a tangent. I did try to address  your  enquiry. But bear in mind this is a public forum. As such it it is subject to posters worldwide.  When you pose a question to the world do do not be surprised or insulted by the responses you get. You are no longer in the privacy your home but in a wide open space which includes a vast audience..

_________________
Join The Karaokle Singers Social Network. Upload Your Music!!

He should be booted off the site again, not just receiving warnings.  It's painfully obvious this is the same guy as Big Dog.  He had his chance and he blew it then, and I really don't see why we should all be forced to listen to his endless ramblings yet again.  Over 500 posts in less than 3 months?  Gag.  Send the beyotch packing.

 LMAO  LOL  LOL  LOL

_________________
Join The Karaokle Singers Social Network. Upload Your Music!!

actually, and I am not a sidewinder advocate by any means re-invention, but I firmly believe that he is not big dog. Big dog was a total no hoper with a computer.
He simply would not be talking about going digital. He certainly wouldnt have shown the humility shown in  a recent post asking what he was doing wrong when a guy told him his system sounded crap. THAT alone would have convinced most who followed big dogs arrogance, that it wasnt one and the same person.

I say this as one of the few who actually stood up for big dog. I am not standing up for sidewinder... I simply see that they are not one and the same...so judge the guy on his own merits and not on the merits of one already banned...that to me is the fairest way

_________________
"Be who you are and say what you feel... Because those that matter... Don't mind...And those that mind... Don't matter."

For those who did provide constructive suggestions regarding my initial question, I thank you.  Ollie, I've downloaded your 747 and can't wait to see how loud I can get it.  

I'm working on several Powerpoint presentations for the general types of announcements I typically like to make.  It's important , I believe, to mix up the appearances of the presentations (to keep them fresh), as well as mixing up the specific messages ("we're doing one song now vs two for all those who have already sung").  The sounds/sound effects I incorporate and the visuals will be key to getting the messages across.

Of course, the biggest problem with announcements is that an announcement made at 9:00 is of no benefit to someone who arrives at 10:00.  I'm also going to work on having a continuous "display" (of changing announcements) that I can show on the extended desktop throughout the show!

Thanks again

Actually he did in fact at points (however can't be proven because every post he ever made has been deleted for some reason), but I remember him asking tech questions all the time & then contradicting every answer, just like a recent crossover discussion (as a matter of a VERY similar discussion occurred with BD & he pretty much questioned every reason that was given JUST like SW).  BD also had pm'd me a couple times about the possibility of going computerized & though he had made a couple posts about if he were to wwhat would he need, can't find any of his posts - looks like everyone of them have been deleted for some reason.
Do I think they are one in the same, only the IP address can tell which I do not have access to, however their styles are identical from refusing to even give a general area he works in, all the way down to the excessive use of the smileys - a BD trademark, both claims 14 years in the business (actually I think SW claims 15 years which when BD posted 14 would have been a year ago) - just too many parralleling similarities.  But ONE of the reasons BD was banned was for multiple screen names - could always be a reincarnation - who knows.  Announcement of banning members even says he was a multi name user.
http://karaoke-forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=11306

As far as the OP, I have my rules in the front of my books, the bar had a floor to ceiling version made up for the wall in the bar itself, & then we will enforce anything that is being broken & explain that rule when we talk to them.

_________________
LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

I wish such a thing existed when I was entertaining.  The only "understanding" I had was that I was wanted, until I no longer was wanted, just that little assurance.. Nothing else..  Wishy-washy industry Ollie,  I never got a long enough contract to assure me I'd have the job 6 months down the road, and I'm certainly not living off've a pension I froze in being a musician  LOL.  It was a really fickle area.. Competition could, and did replace me, and if enough were after my position I felt threatened because my position was threatened, I'm not saying I went around crying that I felt threatened, but I certainly felt insecure.

_________________
Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

I've always given them. I used to have a website when I did my shows. I'm in the process of getting another gig now that my normal J.O.B. has stabalized.

The difference (from a base point of view) between you and me is I tell people who I am, show a picture, where my gigs are (when I was in the business 2 years ago), and I provide verifiable FACTS. People have come to my shows... people that post ON HERE!

Just to update:

The 2 KJs that visited my show last week.  The bar owner told me last night that both of them gave him their business cards and discussed the availability dates.  Do i really trust any other KJs?  THE ANSWER IS NO.

How many times have you given bar owners your business card at someone elses karaoke night?