Karaoke Forums

Cletus & Dolly

http://www.singsnap.com/snap/watchandli ... y/bfa714fb

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Can somebody kindly be tough as nails, and let me know what I could do to improve either of these slow ballads... (within some reasonable possible means that is given my learnin curve 'n stuff....)



    http://www.singsnap.com/snap/watchandli ... y/b1a93fad

    http://www.singsnap.com/snap/watchandli ... y/b099d935


I'm just doing one takes now... Not redoing until I'm told what I can do to improve stuff... Still tough for me to hear objectively

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Singer:  Umm
Song:   Kiss From a Rose
Composer:  Seal



    This was over my head,  so I naturally had to try it.  Song I'm working on now is tough,  "Crazy" by Seal.  His phrasing, and hesitations etc are tough,  Critiques appreciated


http://www.singsnap.com/snap/watchandli ... y/b8c1445b

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

hmmmmm very wierd song, and you said be tuff on you so i'll say its very wierd singing also....kkk...i've never heard this song before  and personally i hope i don't ever again, nothing to do with ur singing just the song...
i will say ur sound is much better ....how do u get effects on singsnap?
i wish u would pick normal songs to sing....l...sorry i can't help on this 1....

i agree NEVER MY LOVE is 1 of ur better songs...

but....
other than try to tell u what i think u did and didn't do right r wrong i'll ask u a few questions....

do you feel that u put urself into this song?
do you feel you projected ur vocals?  power?
do you feel ur vocals were weak? were you lazy on some parts?
do you feel you made this song yours?
do you feel you were on key through out?
would you buy this person's cd?
would you like to hang the person asking these questions?  loll..
what is your bank account number?
do you feel those panty hose were really too small for you? ur not a size 2 anymore, deal with it

i'm not sure how to help you...if i said u were weak in spots would you make the song stronger?
if i said you were flat in places would u concentrate more on your singing?
if i said that you sang it trying to copy their version would you then look for ways to make it more ur own?
can you listen to urself and hear those things in ur singing?
if so can/could you correct them?

to me this is kinda like trying to teach someone how to sing harmony knowing they can't hear the part...how do you do that?

if i said you were weak on the whole song, u may say....wow was i really? then go and sing it with more energy and power....
and if that be the case is it because u can't hear urself if ur off key r weak?
these r things i just don't know....

when ur answering those questions i asked you honestly will you be second guessing urself? as in yes i think i was weak in spots....wait!!!! he said i was weak through the whole song.....WHAT DO YOU HEAR AND THINK?

i think u need to learn what to listen for...make a check list for things to listen for on each song....
number 1 on the list should be....is this a song i should be singing?
number 2 can i honestly sing this song? r will i suck?

if you feel yes this song's for me and no i don't think i will suck then go for it....if ur wrong then add another to your list....number 3...find out how to pick a song that does fit me...

be realistic about ur talent....there are tons of people i won't even think of singing their songs....

i do think the song  NEVER MY LOVE  was a good song for you to learn more about ur singing, but did you?

all this is jmo..... having said that u still owe me 100 bucks...

tc my friend

in listening to your subs steven the first question that comes to mind is were they recorded on the same day?
I first listened to tears in heaven and my immediate reaction (havent listened to you since your very early recordings) was WOW in the 60+ subs since I last heard you, there is a big improvement...your confidence levels seemed higher and you projected more...a couple of pitchy bits but nothing too bad...the one thing that appeared to be apparant to me was you were forcing your vibrato.
So overall I was pretty impressed with the level of improvement
Then I listened to never my love and the lacklustre tentative vocals were back...so what changed? why were you so much more confident on the clapton song? My guess is you were spending too much energy and concentration trying to blend in with the backing singers on the association song that you never simply gave it a go.

for what its worth that is my honest opinion

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"Be who you are and say what you feel... Because those that matter... Don't mind...And those that mind... Don't matter."

Let me find the dates... Actually Tears in Heaven, and Kiss From a Rose were posted within a 24 hours period.. The first "Never my Love" was posted back in November I believe.  I redid Never my love within the past two weeks..  Confidence is up, projection is has improved (Alesis mixer now).  I keep many of the olders songs because it's been suggested that I maintain a means of comparison so I can note progress.. (Currently I can't hear a difference though, and this is VERY tough for me. I sing for at least 4 hours every day though, and I've been practicing hard not giving up).


Yes,  My vibrato is messed up, don't know how to do it yet... I usually (from what I understand) end up doing a temelo that apparently sounds like I've run out've breath, or more of a "tremelo contrived" Bee Gees thing..  Also having some probs with pitches on a few of these songs,  true !


Should I lay off vibrato completely and just sustain the note or try to use less vibrato ?  My mom told me my vibrato is awful, seriously   nice thing is, with people telling me this, I can end it before it becomes a nasty habit !

Much appreciated !

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

I think you will have a vibrato without trying too hard. Bear in mind that I am not a musician, I dont consider myself any great shakes as a singer, but I do consider (and I believe you have made similar comment) myself a storyteller. If you look at every song as a story then I think you will see some improvement.

Lets look at the story told in tears in heaven, and then with this in mind maybe you might like to do it again and see if you can hear any difference. Its a father pouring out his love for a dead child. Now logically you cant identify with losing a child so you must use your imagination.

But this song is about more than that...this man is trying to talk himself into the fact that his son is in a better place. He has heard all the propaganda (so to speak) in fact he is repeating it verbatim. But the underlying thing I believe throughout this song is that he is trying to convince himself that his beloved child is indeed in a place where he lives still and there are no tears. So you weave the emotion into the story
For that Steven you can draw upon emotion you have already experienced

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"Be who you are and say what you feel... Because those that matter... Don't mind...And those that mind... Don't matter."

as a foot note I would like to give an example. Leonard Cohen and Bob Dylan...neither have great voices but Goddess they are the most marvellous story tellers and that compells people to listen.

So try to look upon yourself and the storyteller. take the onus off the sing stuff and concentrate upon the story, till the next leap of improvement has been made, then reassess

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"Be who you are and say what you feel... Because those that matter... Don't mind...And those that mind... Don't matter."

You brought up an excellent point.  I am singing as I play an instrument, I follow melodic flow without paying attention to lyrics.  I just read the lyrics, and try to come as close to the musical aspects of a song ignoring "the message".  I suppose a singer can't do that.  Truthfully, I never even thought of this until now.



OK,  A few weeks back I did Honey.  In your opinion is honey also lacking necessary emotion ?  Or do you think this is closer. (While I do tend to ignore emotion and message for the most part, Honey and Tears in Heaven are tougher to do-so however you are correct with "Tears in Heaven", my focus was melody and musical flow..  Where as honey might've (but I do not know because I can't hear myself objectively) close.
http://www.singsnap.com/snap/watchandli ... y/b2cce463


 The difference being, when I think about how I was attempting these songs, Tears in Heaven I ignored the message completely (this particular ballad has a message I'm familiar with as you've stated), and I think I was trying too hard to handle my falsetto and sing the melody as you say ignoring "the message".  Honey and Tears in Heaven have got to be really tough songs to sing assuming the vocalist really allows themselves to completely be with, or "feel" the message, I try to remain a little detached I suppose, and I guess it shows..



I haven't been doing this, I must start taking in the lyrics.   Thanks again !  I really am trying to play my voice like an instrument still, and likely all I've done thus-far is developed more breath to blow out with.. I'm developing confidence as you metioned thru getting used to doing something however I'm not learning what "singing" is about most likely !  Because to me, it's just another musical instrument and there are expectations I have that the result should be the same as something that already exists.. IE... going for "cover".  So that has beena source of self-torture.

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

This is what's pretty scary.


I literally worked on "Kiss from a Rose" for two days, must've done the song 50 times.  I still don't know the first paragraph lyric-wise without having the words in front of me..  I'm serious.  I just don't pay attention to lyrical flow, or poetic aspects of music.. Just melodic composition, so your point is absolutely true !  Similarly I don't listen to lyrics when I hear a good singer,  I hear something comparable to another "lead guitarist"...  Strange isn't it ?  but it's true..  A good rock vocalist to me is a really great lead instrument..

Jian,  remember years back we were discussing how certain foreigners learn to "mimic" the english language ?  They just try to match english SINGING diction ? Yet some can't speak the language ?  In a sense,  I think that is what I'm doing as a musician that doesn't pay attention to lyrics.  I pretty much try to mimic the melodic content of singers without paying proper attention to expression.  So while phrasing might come easier to me, the message is empty and lacking.


Doesn't anybody else want critiques ?  This isn't my thread, it's supposed to be everybody that wishes for a critiques thread.

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

a couple of things Steven...kiss from a rose is a freakin difficult song. What was your motivation behind wanting to do it...was it the technicality? its not your empathy with the lyrics, you have just said that. In my opinion to attempt a song that wont suit your voice at the stage you are at is counter productive. The analogy is that of the initial terror of riding a bike without training wheels knowing you cant possibly stop or turn without falling off.

Every time you fall off you lose a little more confidence. Same with singing Steven. Every time you fail to measure up you lose confidence.
my solution is NEVER raise the bar (or remove the training wheels) until you are OVER ready for it get good at the easy stuff first. then when its past time...even way past time, raise the bar...lift your sights a little. But not such big strides that you take one step forward and two back ... sheesh I hate mixing my analogies, it makes me look soooo cliched pmsl

I am serious bout going back to a song you do well...if you arent comfy with tears in heaven then select another you really enjoy, and approach it from the story teller perspective.

Now to Honey...too much pathos. It was like you were hamming it up...feeling you had to put a catch in your voice to try and appear to empathise. Go back and read the lyrics...the story is actually a celebration of a life not a slit your wrists at the death. Its a bittersweet walk down memory lane, a reinforcement of what made the woman so special to him and why he was glad of every freakin moment he had with her

well thats my interpretation anyway...

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"Be who you are and say what you feel... Because those that matter... Don't mind...And those that mind... Don't matter."

Problem is Vicki, unless people tell me what sounds best, I haven't a clue..  I honestly can't tell/hear what sounds decent vs what is over my head.  Regarding Kiss From a Rose (and if that's not tough enough "Crazy" by Seal), I love the new-age mood music melodic style,  Enya too, same with some of Kate Bushes easier to listen to stuff such as "The Man with the Child In his Eyes", and "Reaching out".. I think Seals comps are gorgeous and sensuous comps.. Regarding too tough for me ? Logically yes, and if told lay-off that stuff currently I'd believe and respect those telling me to do-so, but the only way I know something doesn't work, is when I'm told it doesn't work..  Otherwise if people tell me I sound great doing the toughest songs, I'm at a point now where I'll believe them and end up making a total fool out've myself on stage assuming they aren't telling me the truth.  I really can't hear myself. It's the truth.  Kiss From a Rose is a song few can do, so I guess I wanted to be the Chihuaha in the bull pen  LMAO

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

I havent listened to your seal subs...I am not big on seal myself, I find him a bit self indulgent. But you are approaching them from a musicians perspective rather than a singers. You and I both know the secret to a sucessful singer is to pick songs that compliment their style. You have yet to cement your style which is why I believe you need to concentrate more on telling the story, getting some light and shade into your voice.
I am notoriously pitchy I know it, so does anyone who has an ear...but I even I can accept that I am listenable...simply becos I tell a story better than average. I am not capable of footing it with the Danis or the Cathis or the Nathans or the Paulas. They are exceptional talents in every way, I am not...never will be, but I can have teh whole room in the palm of my hand at a gig simply by selecting songs that suit me and by telling a good story (that good story is only as good as reading the crowd I deliver it to)

For me the above is the recipe for getting booked and getting paid and most importantly getting repeat business.

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"Be who you are and say what you feel... Because those that matter... Don't mind...And those that mind... Don't matter."

OK,  I'm tripping myself up likely by setting a goal to quickly become a strong ballad singer and impress without taking the necessary steps to achieve this (and strong singer may never be in the cards for me) quite honestly, I'm rushing this (without consideration for necessary areas of being a singer such as story involved in a song which is up to the singer to convey, and it seems obvious that dynamics can only be properly applied singing by listening and as you've stated paying attention to the story of a song).  Desire and impatience are again cluttering what is realistic, and I'm starting the racing and competing which is NOT a good thing. I need to back-peddle meaning cut the contrived vibrato, and focus on the story rather than being a competitive ballad singer..I've once again jumped the gun.


Thanks much !  Appreciate the Critique,  without which I can't do this !

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

np look forward to hearing some story telling

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"Be who you are and say what you feel... Because those that matter... Don't mind...And those that mind... Don't matter."

btw a good example of a pitchy sing but a freakin good story I have just subbed steven

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"Be who you are and say what you feel... Because those that matter... Don't mind...And those that mind... Don't matter."

Yes, I recall that Charlene song quite well.  That's actually a good example of a song where the lyrics are difficult not to hone in on.  The story (IMHO) is in the forground, and isn't upstaged by complex melodic composition (a person such as Seal uses with layers of more sophisticated harmony and round-format ).  A few songs come to mind when I think of that song regarding stronger stories than melodies or a poignant message that isn't upstaged by musical composition around that ballad period, or genre (and there were fabulous ballads during that time). "You and me against the World" by Helen Reddy and actually MUCH of Helen Reddy's repetoir,  Angie Baby, You and me against the world, even Delta Dawn (which tends to have a more catchy melody at least to me than the other two- the message is still very clear to even we listeners that don't tend to pay attention to lyrics) Olivia Newton-John (prior to Grease) with "I honestly love you" and of course  James Taylor, Harry Chapin, Gordon Lightfoot are also examples of great balladeers that convey the story, the 60's and 70's had quite a few actually..  So despite what I thought, there are songwriters who get their message across, and as you mentioned, regarding ballads I am picking, it's CRUCIAL to tell the story (I just worry about melody at expense of the story and it shows, as you mentioned so I must change this).

Hitting that high D, or highest "I've", as in "I've been to paradise" isn't easy but you pulled it off,  I guess when smoking that would've been tougher. Regarding slight pitch issues, quite honestly, I think they are last on the list in terms of what most listeners find important when listening to a story like this, this type of song IMHO, does stand out as a story told with background music.. So dynamics and expresssion I listen for too.. So you've made an excellent point.  The story DOES matter, and my mimicing the song doesn't fake the listener.

Thanks again !

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

no Steven, thank YOU! for understanding where i was coming from I hope it helps. As to Gordon Lightfoot he was my previous sub. I tried that song and it sounded hideous...nothing flowed. So I went back and immersed myself in the lyrics. There are timing issues to consider with that song also, and interpretation is near impossible with a backing track

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"Be who you are and say what you feel... Because those that matter... Don't mind...And those that mind... Don't matter."

(getting some light and shade into your voice.)

very well put Vicki.