Karaoke Forums

The above conclusion was drawn by me as a singer, as a KJ, and as an observer. And before you start "flaming", consider that I can't be the only one who has both this opinion and a lesser concern about manufacturers than some others might! Please note.

And I have made this statement with this following caveat: Yes, there are certain songs (very few) that I will sing only to one certain Karaoke disc!   And one of those songs is the UB40 version of Red, Red Wine , produced by Karaoke Bay, and available only in Walmart  (as far as I know) for a very short period of time.  They're (KB) now, seemingly, out of business.

But such selectivity on my part is rare.  In acutality, until I run into a track that is really, really bad or really, really good (IMHO) I don't usually pay any attention to the manufacturer.

Yes, there are plenty amongst you who will only sing certain manufacturers tracks and you know who those manufacturers are.  However, it has also been agreed upon in many different threads that any particular track produced by SC, CB, DK, ZOOM, etc is not necessarily the best, or even always good. So it is not a given that a singer who asks you to put on the best track (from among choices) will like your choice simply because you selected a top manufacturer's product!

IMHO, the average person coming to karaoke is NOT the type of person who does/will worry about the manufacturer of a track.  They're looking to have fun and,  perhaps, "their moment in the sun" (in that order).  

But, for sure, we all also have singers at our shows that take karaoke very seriously.  And it is those singers that make themselves known to you, and unless they bring their own discs, they'll likely be the ones discussing the manufacturers of the particular tracks they want to sing!

On the other hand, I've had singers tell me a song is "off" (even from the best manufacturers) even when I "know"/believe that the track is, basically, dead-on in every aspect of the word.  No amount of quality in a production will compensate for an inebriated singer or one who doesn't really know the song they've requested!

For the most part I agree with you.  In fact, the longest standing karaoke bar (now out of business) in our area had mostly SGB.  The majority of the singers could have cared less.  Hell, early on I sang there so often I thought they were a top manufacturer!  LOL

Now, I do tend to avoid SGB when I can, especially on certain songs like Kid Rock, Only God Knows Why.  It isn't all that bad, but it also isn't the full song!  A lot of places I go to sing that song ONLY have the SGB version... Oh well, I just rock it out and end singing after the music has stopped.  Surprisingly, I seem to get a better standing ovation for that rendition than the full version.  Perhaps because it ends on such a strong note that way.  

That still doesn't mean though that those of us that know better shouldn't use the best when we can.  To the average laymen that wouldn't know the difference, it wont matter.  But to those that do know... It will make you more legitimate than your competition any day.

I'm a graphic design student.  It's like using elements that reflect the inner workings of whatever your client is about, be it history or components of what makes them who they are or what they are about.  To the average person, what they see in your work wont mean anything special.  But to those that know the subject or business you are reflecting in your design.... It makes all the difference in the world.

They don't really care, but I have seen some like "the little dots" on SoundChoice and Chartbuster.

Good news/ Bad news

Good news.....there is karaoke in hell

Bad news........all the songs are SGB


kinda sums this posting up for me......

I agree - not important to 99% of the singers...the other half of the remaining 1% bring their own discs, and the other one-half of that 1% will ask....the rest, "What's the difference in these songs????" tell them, they don't understand or don't bother to listen to the entire answer.

Tell that to the singers that try the Music Maestro version of Come Sail Away - Styx or Born On The Bayou - CCR.  These versions are the most crap version of any song & barely singable if at all, or any Weird Al song from the SGB disc, I could go on.  
I know there are singers that care about which versions they like because they tell me, not flat out, but refer to the club down the street that you can't even tell what you are singing due to their custom numbers.
It's not important to the majority i'll probably agree with that, but it is important enough for me as a kj to try to give the best versions I can.

_________________
LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

That almost seems like a contradiction to your post on another thread Lonnie. On the one hand, you don't seem to agree on listing multiple dupes, but on the other, listing what you think is best- might not be what the singers think is the best version of a song.

There ARE several good manufacturers that are very "singable" to, no?

If you listed SC, THM and PHM (as dupes) in your book, then i know dozens of knowledgable singers who will swear by each manu as being the best.

No what I said in the other post was that when you list multiple versions, the majority are going to ask the kj what the difference is & ultimately end up telling the kj to pick which version they feel is best - leaving it up to the kj.  So I list what I feel is best.  If i'm wrong so be it, if I get complaints I would consider switching out the version in the book.  



There are also several manufacturers that aren't worth spending money on the ink to list.  Every manufacturer has it's gems & fubars, some just have better track records than others.  I'm in no way saying SC is the perfect company, yes they have their fubars as well, but it's more along the line  of 75/25 percent in favor of better quality version over something like MM which I would rate completely opposite.  I haven't heard very good versions - especially in their pop/rock that I would deem singable (although they do have a handful out of their entire library & their country is useable).  But I am not going to spend money on music I already have just to have a different manu name in front of it - unless it's because of an upgrade reason where the version I already have stinks.



Then they can ask if I have a specific version & I will give it if I have it.  My dup ratio again is pretty low so chances are I don't have it on another manu.  Again, I try not to purchase songs I already have.

_________________
LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

I think the worst cut I have is MM's Shoop (Salt n Pepa). It's totally unrappable... it's all mush no matter what I do EQ wise. There's absolutely no beat. And SC, which had it, is out of print.

But... on that same MM disc is How Do You Want It (2Pac) that's pretty decent. And that's just so weird.

I'll take back what I said in another thread about SGB. MM is the most variable brand.

Interesting. Most of my kids just pick the 1st one listed and turn in the slip. Different strokes i guess.

From experienced singers i get "Oh, you DO have the SC version, Great!".
And sometimes they decide to try another version to see if it sounds more like the original song.

One of the BEST investments i made was to buy the Motown discs- original orchestration- i then removed and gave away my MM discs and never looked back.

So Lonnie, are you saying that you wouldn't buy a version of a song if you heard there were better versions of it? I replaced MANY brands, or should say added them, when i first heard about Zoom.-love their stuff. And do you preview a PHM vs. THM to see which is better?

Ok.  I thought I read you stating that you put what you feel is best first - maybe that was someone else?  But if that's the case then it's still the same premise where you are putting what you felt is best first knowing that most pick the first song anyway.



Yeah i've had this happen before as well when a singer forgets their disc & sings off of mine & agrees that our version is better - most of the time not always.  When a song someone brings in sounds better than the version I have then I will determine whether or not that disc purchase would be worth it or not.  



Well of course you can't get better than the original versions - usually, depending on how the original recording was done.



I have never stated that I would never replace a version if a better version was out, but it would have to meet certain criteria.  I'm not going to replace a song just because it's better.  
Does it get sung often enough to warrant the replacement?
Will this disc be duplicating more than half of what I already have?
Are the duplicate versions better than my current versions?
These are the 3 main factors in determining whether I will replace a version or not.

I preview everything I purchase for quality - even if it's just a 30 second snippet on the karaoke sites & do comparisons before I buy.  I am not going to purchase a bunch of different manu's just to have multiple versions for the minority to be able to choose their favorite version.  MOST of our singers that are brand particular anymore will purchase their own discs.  Which is fine.  I have also heard some of their versions that I would never consider listing either.

It really doesn't matter what is said.  If you list multiple versions great!  Make sure they are denoted by a manu so people can know what version they are singing.  As i've said i've seen MANY karaoke books with custom numbers that don't give a manu reference & multiple listings - this makes NO sense at all.
I prefer to list 1 version of each song.  If it's the same version but a different rendition I will list both & denote which is which - for example I have 2 versions of At This Moment listed, one has a long ending, one has a short.
2 versions of Paradise By The Dashboard Light - one has the baseball narration done for you, the other you do the play by play.
If they are the same song redone by other artists, they both will get listed.

_________________
LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

Interesting.  I began this thread this morning because I was at a membership club/bar I have belonged to for years that is devoted to karaoke.  People come from all over to sing there; it has Karaoke until 6am on the weekends.  

I've mentioned this place in at least one previous post way back.  I haven't been there since I began KJ'ing over a year ago.  I was reminded when I checked out their catalog last night that it is a least 50% MM, has some CB and very little else of what some would consider to be the "better" manus.  And BTW, IMHO MM has the best collection of Elvis (which I hate) and oldies in general, many of which cannot be found elsewhere.  So, if anyone in your audience like oldies MM is invaluable!

Furthermore, it is my opinion as Purpletib indicated earlier, that most singers do not know the difference between one manufacturer and the next.  Of course there are karaoke regulars who have their preferences (not always prefering the "best"), but what do they represent in regard to the total Karaoke singing population?

Remember when Karaoke was on cassette tapes?  That's what I purchased when I bought my first machine and what was worse than those tapes to try and run a show with?

At the club last night everyone was having a great time; enjoying the vibes, cheering on the singers; getting up in groups of four and five to sing.  They didn't care what manufacturers are in the catalog.

You know what?   I, personally, am not impressed by the singers that rehearse their material over and over, using the perfect backing track in an attempt to sound like the original.

I'm impressed by the singer who stylizes a song (where possible) and makes it their own.  I'm impressed by the singer who gets up, tries new material, and surprises themselves and you with the results.  Thank God that those who are really anal about sounding exactly like the original are in the minority!

Lastly, in another thread I recently started about determing which karaoke track is actually "the best", many of us agreed that it is not correct to assume that you will always be getting the best tracks by sticking to certain manufacturers!  Someone suggested that if they run across a track in their collection that is no good they'll sample another in an attempt to replace the sub-par product.  Well, sampling in this regard won't work if you want to know how the track sounds, in its entirety. Consider earlier in this thread someone noted their dismay over a certain song's ending.

In that other referenced thread, some suggested that the customer is the final arbiter (Karen noted that a customer brought in a SGB disc when she had the SC version).  And from what I've noted over time, as a singer, a KJ and an observer, few customers have anything to say about the manufacturers.  But, as it is in life, there will always be those few that do "complain" and they will get all of the attention!  Don't run your shows based upon "THE SQUEEKY WHEELS"!

And when a newbie asks about building a library, offer them all of the alternatives and the pros and cons associated with each strategy.

I understand where you are coming from, I really do, but I think there are exceptions on some songs. I sing a few Chili Peppers songs ( Fortune Faded, Dani California, Snow, Hey Oh ) and it is very hard to do them any way except how the originals are. The cadence is so fast and Keides will run several words together to get them to fit the structure of a verse. If you don't know which words to run together you get lost in a hurry.

Then again a song like "Stuck in the middle with you" or maybe U2's "One" are open to interpretation a lot more. Don't pidgeon hole someone just because we like to learn a song pat. I'm just not talented enough to do my own versions of songs if I choose to do so until I have learned the original inside and out.

We do realize that sometimes we take this stuff too serious, so we mix it up some nights by telling our regulars that they have to do a song tonight that they have never done before. It's fun and usually people do better than they thought they would. Except when I did "One thing leads to Another" whoo that was bad.

I totally agree about MM, I have the one with Dishwalla's "Counting Blue Cars" and that is the only song out of several on there that I would like to do that I feel comfortable doing. I guess it just depends on how anal you are. Unfortunetly I probably do fall in that category. Rudy.

OK... Here's my take on this.....

As others have stated, each manufacturer has their klunkers. Nobody is perfect, but some have a better track record than others. To me, what brand I sing from DOES matter. For example:
As good as SC is, they can't do Braodway right. PS (IMO) is the best for that.
MM is pretty good for the oldies (and as someone else mentioned, they did put out a very good Elvis set). The problem with MM is that they were hit and miss with their music. Their ratio was (IMO) about 50 - 50.
SGB just plain sucks (again, IMO)... One of the main reasons I state this, is because more often than not, the word-swipes are not in sync with the music.
CB is good for Country. Forget about their Rock.  
Nikkodo was just plain synthy for most of their music.
Standing Ovation was just plain crap... very bland in their music.

I could go on with some others, but you know what I'm talking about.    


Quote from ericlater:
Furthermore, it is my opinion as Purpletib indicated earlier, that most singers do not know the difference between one manufacturer and the next.  Of course there are karaoke regulars who have their preferences (not always prefering the "best"), but what do they represent in regard to the total Karaoke singing population?
end quote


I will agree with this point to a degree. IMO, most Singers do not (or will not) know the difference between different versions IF they only frequent one particualar show. They become used to what that KJ has to offer. This goes for those 1st-timers and (of course) the inebriated folks too. Also, as a newbie to Karaoke (no, not me... I mean that in a generalized sense), they would not know the difference, because they have nothing else to go by. That is something that they start to learn in time. The people who notice the difference between the different versions are the serious/dedicated Karaoke Singers who keep coming back week after week... the ones who go to different shows.  As for the percentage of people who notice the difference in the different brands, I'm sure it's higher than what you state. After all, look at all of us who bring our own discs with us when we go out to a show.


Another thing to keep in mind, it's not just limited to the Singers who notice a difference. There's also the Audience (and there are lots of people in the Audiences that don't get up to sing). There have been a few times that I've noticed people in the Audience making comments that the music just didn't sound right (people that wouldn't know 1 brand from the next). Of course, this statement might be in agreement to your arguement about manufacturer brands not making a difference (only because they don't know what version is playing, or that there may be a better version out there). Another factor is the noise level at a Venue. There's so many other things going on, and a lot of noise in the background, that not everyone's attention is focused 100 percent on the disc that is playing (or the Singer who is singing). Thus, they probably wouldn't notice the difference between a good version of a song or a crappy version.    

I have also seen many people who are only comfortable singing certain songs from specific manufacturers. Lonnie mentioned "Come Sail Away" before. I used to know someone who sang this song, and would only sing it from the MM disc. Well, the MM disc is the 45 version of the song, and SC is the full version. Also, the MM version is in the wrong key (the music is higher... the same goes for Meatloaf's "2 Out of 3 Ain't Bad" on MM). Anyway, this person refused to ever sing "Come Sail Away" from the SC version (even after hearing someone else do so), because she was comfortable with the MM version. This is the version that she was used to singing from, so in a sense (even tho the version was worse), the manufacturer's version DID make a difference to her. As for me, any time I hear the music start up for this song (regardless of who is singing it), I start to cringe when I recognize it as the MM version. The point I'm making here is, it doesn't matter if the version of a song is crappy or great, but it does matter to the Singer who chooses to knowingly sing from it.

I can't even call myself a "Singer" yet, but as a musician given my short experience with SunFly,  If a song opens and has the SunFly logo I close it immediately.  I won't even give it a try after the hideous experiences I've had with Sunfly.. So I care.  SoundChoice IMHO has had the backings I appreciate the most, followed by Chartbuster (in some cases).  I DO NOT believe I am the only Singer that feels this way.  "Singers" as musicians care.   In bars however it might not matter as much, yet to state  DISC manufacturer is NOT THAT important to Singers is erroneous. My thoughts are as follows
"The DISC Manufacturer is NOT THAT Important in some bar settings"..  

I'd be embarassed to be a KJ, be doing a private gig, and have somebody that can really sing well have to endure some of the hideous Sunfly backings assuming I was a KJ..

While some might not lose sleep over songs that are played by a few of the better manufacturers renditions, there are some manu's that have a pretty high "bomb out" rate when you put on their backing.. Sun Fly is one sucn company IMO.  Manu's matter to singers because a good backing is well produced with a good band, and SC IMHO is pretty dang good !  Few others are consistently as good.

_________________
Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Picking out one or two good or bad examples from different manufactuerers doesn't mean anything.

As to long or short endings.   If the song is going to last 6 minutes of nothing but some ooohs and aaahs so what?   Does that mean its a good version?    That means it's wasting time.   ("Can't You See" comes to mind)    The version i play depends on what time it is and how many singers i have.    Most singers prefer songs they are use to hearing.  If the happens to be the crappiest version of the song ever made, it's their favorite one.

As Lonman and others have said.  Most times it's left up to the KJ to play or inform you of the best musical version.  From OUR EXPERIENCE.   Do you trust me or not?

I have many discriminating singers that demand the best musical versions.  And they will let me know that mine might not be the best one, according to THEM.    Some of them i trust.  Some i don't.    

I do the best i can to provide what i feel is the best version, based on several factors.    

[highlight=red]Manufacturerer means nothing in that choice.[/highlight]

nor in the above example is the average person a "Singers", yet in *some* bar settings, I'd agree with you.


You folks are KJ's, I'm not, but I believe the above example should've been phrased "Disc Manu doesn't matter in certain bar settings". What if you KJ at a venue where there *are singers* ?   Do Sunfly renditions match up consistently with same song SoundChoice renditions ?   If-so, I haven't stumbled across this yet.. The fact that I've found what I consider a lousy Manu in general IMHO means Manu matters (to me and obviously would to singers).  Without giving it a second thought if I saw a library with two choices of the same song,  I'd ALWAYS pick SC -safer bet (assuming I never heard either manu's rendition to date)  Soundchoice I've found is consistently better than several other manu's, not saying ALL.. Just saying I believe "safer bet", I trust SC...
So manu matters to me (UNLESS the manus consistently have song renditions that are as good).

In a young rowdy bar with background noise, I doubt much matters,  yet there IS more than one manu that has decent songs,  I agree. Or to say you must only have ONE manu to have a decent selection of music, no, that too seems erroneous. However manu certainly IS important depending on manus compared and assuming a KJ had a library consisting of "Sunfly" and "Dr. T's SingAlong backings, they'd likely end up humiliated at some point.

Consistency in backing quality is a good thing is it not (when buying compilation discs, or taking a chance on versions you have yet to hear) ?  Otherwise given a chance I'd wish to do head-to-heads comparisons with each song, and buy the better rendition, in which case the manu still matters as a means of reference because I'm sure there are two manus with a much higher success rate of "Singers" happy with backings song after song.  So disc manu might not be as important to "Singers" assuming manus renditions compared are both very good quality.

_________________
Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Steve I can give you a few examples, try "Save a Prayer" Duran Duran, "Revolution" The Beatles, on Sunfly the beginnings of these songs are not as good on SC. The the SC beginning on SAP is horrid. The Revolution beginning on Sunfly has that nasty distortion guitar lead in, not perfect but better than SC. IMHO. Rudy.

OK, thanks Rudy  (marking these songs on blacklist or will write "Chartbuster" next to them ) .. I'm now wondering if I was traumatized by the hideous versions of SunFly or Legend (across the board).

_________________
Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

I will to you what tho, the rest of those Beatles songs on that Legend compilation SUCK BIG TIME! Almost midi sounding.