Karaoke Forums

I don't know exactly why this is bothering me and I'm hoping someone else might pick up on it too, and maybe identify the core issue.

Within the last month, there is a group of people who have been self-appointed, and who going around to neighborhood karaoke places and doing a "review" on the establishment itself and the karaoke.  I have no idea what kind of qualifications these people believe they have, if any, and I don't even know if they are knowledgeable about equipment, sound mixing, etc.  They are, en masse, 'dropping in' on places and proceeding to basically review the place - the karaoke, quality of food and drinks, etc., etc.

Keep in mind, they are doing unsolicited reviews, and not anonymously (as you would expect a newspaper reviewer to do).  These people are then "reporting" their findings in the local karaoke rag - as if there is some sort of perceived merit or that they have some sort of extra credibility to be making these kinds of judgments in print. This rag is well circulated in the PNW. Some of the people involved write for this rag and are often incorrectly assumed to actually 'own' the paper.

I'm not sure what it is that is eating at me about this, except to say that there are people who take everything written in this monthly as the god's honest truth.  

I'm trying hard to come to grips with a few things here:

1.  I know I would NOT want someone adjudicating anything I did if I didn't feel they were at least as educated or experienced as I was ... so as to avoid any 'personal prejudice' that might color an actual CLEAN ADJUDICATION. On the other hand, I am confident in my show and the professionalism of it, and the locations where I work, that I would receive a glowing report, so it is not that I am 'scared' of a review like this.

2.  I'm not sure what the goal is here - is it an attempt to increase attendance? Clean a place out? Close it down altogether? Draw people to another location?

3.  Is the presence of this group of people going to have an effect on a location where people might otherwise be having a great time (i.e., they are homies) and cause some sort of friction? We know that in a small joint, where everyone knows everyone, when a group of 'ferners' comes in, there is an often imperceptible impact. It can sure dampen someone's great time.

I guess I am thinking out loud here trying to figure out if this is a good thing or a bad thing...and why. I believe there are at least two people who peruse this forum who may have some input about this, and I'm really curious to hear what others think.

I can imagine there will be a lot of places who spend money advertising in this rag who will be visited and receive NOT a glowing report...and if the report is not HONEST, then why do it?  And if the report is NOT glowing, why would they continue to invest their advertising dollars in it every month (the ads are not cheap by any means).

Anyone???

K

These aren't reviewers from restaurant and lounge review sites are they ? Dine.com, restaurant yellow pages, Citysearch,  Yahoo review site, and a multitude of other "dining" places have them... National stuff... Yeah, annoying but not sure what can be done.  Business and entertainment review sites.. People offer their opinion publically and I believe that's allowable although annoying. I don't think there's anything that can be done because its their right to do so.  Anyone can review a restaurant or business, and the way (at least sites are set up) is that they can not be held responsible (and they state the laws) as venue only "not in anyway endorsing etc"..

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

We here in Milwaukee have a local Karaoke and bar news letter. Most reviews are unsolicited (a restaurant reviewer would never show up because he or she was invited, the establishment would be aware of the reviewers presence). Most rags of these type are generally someones idea to be informative and write about their hobby (drinking, karaoke) Anyone with a copy machine or printer can publish a paper on anything, heck, I write for my car club newsletter. They usually are trying to provide a service to people who are new to the area or visiting on business. These people welcome the little bar rags for that info and they want the best they can go to. They don't know anyone so they rely on these papers. The problem with them is that they are usually connected with a certain bar or club or groups of bars. If the paper has adverts, see which ones are the biggest and push promotions...this is probably the source of the paper staff. I wouldn't be to upset about these as the only ones who generally read these are out of towners.

Approach it in a positive way; welcome them with an open arm. You have nothing to loose but every thing to gain. The more helpful you are the better chance the review be good.
What ever your approach they will still write the review.

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I can neither confirm nor deny ever having or knowing anything about nothing.... mrscott

I'm being devil's advocate here, I guess. I frankly don't care if they show up at my show ... wouldn't bother me at all.  I think my concern here is it's a little "cliquey" (SP?) and every time they publish their report, someone fires back in defense. Just seems like the majority of places have one thing or another "wrong" and the last thing any place needs, especially one hanging on by its teeth and paying for karaoke, is a less than shining report.

I still haven't figured out why this is sitting in my craw but I'm sure it'll pop into my head at the least expected moment. Sometimes it takes me a while ....  :drool:

K

If it is a factual critique that's one thing.

In other words.

I like this, this and this.  And this happened and this didn't.  Blahh, blahh, blahh..

And as you say based on what qualifications?    Just some no nothing jerk's opinion.

Are they going to lump the entire critique together.  Food, prices, entertainment, atmosphere...

Ranked 1-10. over all

Is it entertainment 1-10
Food quality 1-10
atmosphere 1-10

If it's just based on the facts, i wouldn't care.

Like KJ personable and friendly.
Song selection was..
The sound was...
The equipment is...
The food was..
The atmosphere was...
The crowd participation was..


Now as you say, do they have a real agenda to help or harm you and the bar?

Are they members of the Rotary or local Businessmans Association?    

Are they trying to promote local business?

Based on reading their past articles what do they do?     Build up or tear down?

I used to do this... in fact, still do. AND so do most karaoke singers. If they go to a good or bad show, they'll tell people about it.

These guys just put it in writing for all to see.

Nothing really new about that!

Is it the NWKG by chance?  I know they have dropped in on me a few times.  Swincatkurt was one of them that came in a couple times (with Ty one night as a matter of fact) & had favorable reviews.  Just do your job as you would normally do it & I don't think you'd have a problem the way you describe your show here.  I'd love to come up & see you as we run very similarly it seems.
But there have been some independant reviewers that do pop up every once in a while that try to start a 'best of karaoke' guide, again just do what you do & do it the best you can & generally it will outperform most of the other 'start up' comapnies out there.

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

The beauty of America is that anyone can do this type of thing. If they are worth anything, they will do a good review and stick around for a while. If they are worthless, in all likelihood they will wither away.

In short, it can bother you or not. But I doubt you have much control of it.

Do your job and don't worry about them, is my advice.

Lonnie, I don't think it can't be any other paper than the NWKG.  

I know Ty very well from my days as a medalist dart player, and even built his websites and I used to maintain them each month (the entire paper + was translated to web).  I say used to because I haven't done them for a few years and they don't look as cool and aren't as well maintained as they used to be.  

I actually tried to do something similar a bunch of years ago on an anonymous basis for dart tournaments, and Ty canked it for some of the very fears you express, Karen.  Real difference is the bars (who advertise more than KJs) run the dart tournaments, where as with us KJs, most of our shows are ours.  It's easier to replace your KJ then to lose your dart crowd - from an owner who knows what 10 boards and a house full of people brings you in on one tournament, so the crtiques aren't as damaging to Ty's business (lost advertising) if they're unfavorable to our shows.

I don't like hack reviewers either.  I think they think they're doing some justice, but they can't possibly take into account all the variables for a particular location or show.  Just think of how many different styles we display here on KS.  

I've have had a slow night once in a while, depending on what else is going on in town.  If they, by chance, came in during a slow show (because Fortune 500 was playing down the street - everybody goes to their shows) and reviewed it as a slow show - generalizing from ignorance, I'd be way pxssed.  If you see them at your show, tell them you don't want the PR - you could always sue for defamation.  The gal that does a lot of the articles on the shows up here is usually pretty nice in her articles (of course she's looking for commission off any advertising dollars she can sweet talk people in to) - Actually I think she is the leader of the band you're speaking of ((I have her e-mail too).

I have Ty's e-mail (I created it for him) if you'd like to express this to him personally, he's a pretty fair guy and you may be the first to opine on this issue.  Another option - he'd run an article you write expressing your opinion and it might stop them dead in their tracks.  If it is her and her entourage, she says she's doing it for fun.

CD: I believe they're doing it somewhat personally and not under the auspices of the rag, but I could be wrong. What you're saying is similar to what I'm thinking here.

I'm not denying that they have every right to do what they're doing. Perhaps what the issue is in my mind is that those spearheading the thing are often mistaken for owners of the paper...and maybe what they're coming up with as far as reviews may be misconstrued as being recommendations by the publication rather than by a group of people who like to drop in on places and sing.  

I'll reiterate - I don't care WHO comes in to judge my shows - I welcome all.  My concern is that a lot of places are fighting for survival ... and paying kararoke hosts is a major chunk of change for a lot of them ... and if whatever is says finally puts them over the edge, and they stop doing karaoke, what we have is another host that is out of business.  

Yes, CD, I know Ty (WHO IS THE PUBLISHER)... I have written multiple articles for the publication. I respect him for what he's doing as far as the publication. I just think maybe it might be time to rein in some of these people who may have more of an impact then they have thought, or at least make it clear that the opinions expressed by those people are certainly not those of the publisher.

Hey, I think it's great when people get together and go to a show they might not normally attend - often it's a great way to find a sleeper show. We all know how difficult things have become in the NW as far as shows, what is being charged, the volume of pirates out there, etc., etc., and I think we/they need to tread carefully.

K

Totally agree.  Ty is under great strain to put together that paper each month, and he needs us to police his 'crew' sometimes.

As the Oregon and SW Washington Writer for "THE RAG"-Northwest Karaoke and Live Entertainment Guide as u put it, I'm not sure if you are directing your comments concerning the need to "REIN IN some of these people" directly to me. Please be specific and clear.

As to "The Rag" comment I take some personal offense in a professional writing capacity to that comment. I write for two entertainment (Karaoke, General Entertainment and Blues) publications in Portland, NWKG in Seattle area, and occaisional contributed articles to KS Magazine in LA.

FURTHERMORE DO NOT PRESUME TO LUMP ME IN WITH THE TERM "HACK". I FIND THAT PERSONALLY OFFENSIVE.  I take pride in my work, articles and photography that I produce and strive AT ALL TIMES to do the very best work that I can. I put alot of time and effort into the work I do with the magazine. I also deliver the papers and have done deliveries as far away as Moscow and Lewiston, Idaho and feature stories in Medford, Oregon. So I take what I do with the magazine seriously. And YES I am aware of the positive or negative impact a story can have. And the RESPONSIBILTY that comes with it.

LET'S BE CLEAR---I DO NOT WRITE FOR "RAGS". If I find a publication to be offensive or particularly negative then I will NOT be writing for it or wasting time with it.

Concerning Lonman's mention of my coming up to interview him----I was on assignment with KaraokeScene Magazine that evening doing a feature article on him and the T-Bird where he KJ's in Tacoma. It was a one night trip--2hrs up from Portland and 2 hours back that same night. I had asked Tye to specifically come by as I had not met him in person before. I had a good time there singing and interviewing Lon and getting a few shots for the story. As I understand Lon has also been featured in NWKG before also. So Lon gets coverage all up and down the west coast.

Some of the other KS personalities Ive done features on with KS are Knightshow when he lived and KJ's in Portland and MANDYLYNN(Charmin) and her crew in Canby
along with ODIE. Both in KS AND NWKG. I also have done a few shots of FLIPPER. I posted one in OUT ON THE TOWN.

As to my own published writing style, I consider it to be crisp, concise and accurate as to what occurs at the location.   I construct a story primarily using direct in person (or over the phone as needed) interviews and include interviews with the KJ, someone from management-if available and a regular singer(the man on the street). They tell the story far better than I could hope to make it up. It also make for a far better read. I make every attempt to minimize my own opinions and let the people being interviewed tell their own stories. I limit my comments to a few general observations and lead-in sentences. If I walk into a place and its just a Shthole or the KJ is an utter jerk then I will be on the phone to the Editor and kill the story on the spot. I don't waste time trying to create a negative story--as it most likely would not make it into print to begin with. I simply kill the story and go do another some other place. The result is the venue simply doesnt get any circulation or publicity from a story. And yes I have done exactly that on several occasions.

As to the value that NWKG provides in its published material---I'd suggest you give a call to the Oregon Food Bank in Portland and ask for their publicist and ask her opinion of the quality of printed articles that NWKG has provided supporting the Waterfront Blues Festival(they used the first one we did as part of their Prospectus that they provide to potential new sponsors). You might also talk to some of the Blues Bands that have been featured in NWKG. You also might call and talk to the President of the Cascade Blues Association and ask the very same question-since NWKG has gone specifically out of it's way to support both the Portland and Seattle Blues Music Scenes with feature articles and advertisements. These articles have also been featured on the BLINDMAN'S BLUES Website as tools to promote the Pacific NW blues scene. There's even a blues music label that references the NWKG guide article that we did supporting THE WINTHROP BLUES FESTIVAL.

I don't know what grudge you have with the magazine or Tye personally or who these "HACKS" are. But I would suggest you be a bit more direct and specific when directing general blasts at the writers.

And if you are criticizing MY WORK and articles then I would expect you to DIRECT that criticism specifically TO ME.

I would expect that as a MINIMUM LEVEL OF PROFESSIONAL COURTESY.

Particularly from a fellow Writer and KJ.

-----KURT "SWINGCAT" JOHNSON-----
503-757-5263
www,geocities.com/swingcatpdx

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"You know that I sing the Blues and I do not suffer fools. When I'm on that silver mic, it's gonna cut ya, just like a knife"-The SWINGCAT

Woahhhhh! I certainly don't mean to INSULT YOU!  I guess it's a thing I've done forever, but I tend to call any publication a 'rag.' Not meant to be derogatory. I sure don't think you're a hack, SwingCat.  Not directing any blast at writers, either!  Geesh! My main point about this whole post was I was truly trying to get others' ideas on why it was bothering me. I have contributed in the past as well - I like Ty. The publication is great - it is read by a ton of people....and I've always enjoyed reading it! Gawdalmighty, I don't know what I did in what I wrote to get you feeling so defensive about this but that was NOT my goal.

I KNOW I have not referred to any particular writers in this post - again, my point was to try and figure out what particular aspect of this whole idea was throwing me off.  I apologize deeply to you if you felt I was directing any "nasty comments" at you...papers like this would fall apart if people like you didn't write for them.

I can keep on explaining, I guess, over and over again in a dozen different ways, but let me be clear on this:  My thread was meant to maybe get input from other hosts as to why this "gang" method of adjudicating places was bothering me.  (NOT THE REGULAR WRITERS WHO GO FROM PLACE TO PLACE! AND DO A WONDERFUL JOB...)

I have great respect for Ty and what he does every month. It's a tough job, it's a great paper, and provides a lot of people with a lot of great reading...myself included! Sorry if you took it as a cricitism of some sort. I guess this sort of forum isn't the place to float this kind of question - I was intentionally vague because I didn't want anyone to feel unduly criticized, and wanted input IN GENERAL...

Okay, learned my lesson. I hope you'll accept my apology for having made you feel defensive about anything you do for the industry in general. (Lordy, I'm going to just quit writing on here because I've had to apologize twice in a week!)

K

Im not clear on what this gang is----is this a bunch of pub crawlers that just do their own thing independent of the mag??? or is this a new column in the mag or what exactly is this group of people?

NO YOU MUSTNT QUIT WRITING!!!

BUT BETTER YET GET BACK TO BEING A REGULAR WRITER FOR THE MAG!!!

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"You know that I sing the Blues and I do not suffer fools. When I'm on that silver mic, it's gonna cut ya, just like a knife"-The SWINGCAT

Again I know of a couple of independants that do the 'rate karaoke places' thing & may not be as fair as they could be.  One of them was pretty nice, but the other would cut down anything THEY personally didn't feel was up to THEIR standards & would write about it.  The latter is no longer writing as far as I can tell as the website they were using is no longer available.  The other was more of a positive toward karaoke & they would list more of the pros rather than the cons of any company they visited.  They were trying to do a west coast deal, but I think they finally ended up residing mostly in their home state of Oregon.  Not going to mention the site just in case.

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

I found the NWKG on the net. Boy, I wish we had something similar in our area! Not necessarily for the stories -- for the ads. It gives the singer a great list of places to check out. As someone who travels and does karaoke, it is hard sometimes to find a selection of places to sing.

Hi Karen. Feel lucky there is at least something decent in your area. The only thing here that passes as a karaoke Mag is run by A couple of gals who have their own karaoke business. THe Bars only get reviews when they hire said karaoke ladies. I can, however buy an add in their magazine for a hefty sum . On the plus side they do not review other KJ's. I have been lucky in that their style of karaoke doesn't really go over well in my area. They seem to be hired once, the bar gets their review and they are gone . I can see your concern about bars trying to keep, and or get going. I have a bar right now I am trying to help out. I would not have wanted a reviewer on the first couple times when there were only 10 people in the bar .It could have killed the whole thing. It seems that your concern is not the mag itself, but he thought that these particular reviewers may not be as profewssional as they could be.

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It's always time to sing!

rag has always been a euphamism for a hack paper... although the meaning has been distorted by time by the general public to mean newspaper... slang for them, but it still hackles the pro writers and photographers!

When I write a feature story on a Karaoke place---size of crowd has little to do with it. Many times Ive been to places with less than 10 people. Its not about the size of crowd, but what the place offers, is the KJ welcoming, helpful and congenial, is the wait staff on the ball, and are the people that are there having a good time. That particulalry tells the story. Many of the nights I have to go do a story on "off" nights. If its crowded, well thats even better. But its not about crowd size, but WHAT the show offers--(assortment, sound gear, etc, etc) and what the guests have to say about it. And like I said before if its turning into complelty negative experience--I simply kill the story.

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"You know that I sing the Blues and I do not suffer fools. When I'm on that silver mic, it's gonna cut ya, just like a knife"-The SWINGCAT