Karaoke Forums

This subject just perplexes the h-ll out of me. Bill's last thread "Advice After a Bad Night" contained references to latecomers and reminded me a recent experience of mine that served, once again, to highlight the problem of dealing with newcomers at a show. And there are consequences of being casual about how you integrate newcomers.

For one, there are "venue hoppers" who go from place to place banking on the likelihood that they'll be put into rotation near the top at each place they go to based upon the fact that they are a "new arrival". And please note that most typically these "venue hoppers" spend little if any money, and if they do buy anything it is so often a bottle of water. So, these "hoppers" maximize their singing time, while minimizing their expenditure. They are "gaming" the system and realize that as "hoppers" their actions mostly go unnoticed.

Some of you have in the past minimized the impact of such people by saying such people are few and far between. I maintain that it only takes one. How about this? I was at a 3 hour show a few weeks back while in Vegas. It started at 7:00 and I arrived when it started. I first got to sing at around 8:30, and was next to last in the original rotation. Then the KJ started adding new singers. One of them was a Neil Diamond "impersonator". He came in around 8:30 and left as soon as he sang, around 9:00. At 10:00 the show ended. I was to be the next singer but never got the opportunity to sing again. So, I dropped $20 in that venue and spent three hours there, while, "Neil" spent nothing as he headed out to the next venue to sing, both of us having sung one song! (edit: I never dreamt I'd only sing once in three hours and I surely will never go back there!)

Now, Bill's thread offered an example of this problematic situation at an extreme. He had a bunch of folks who were at another venue all night, which is where they likely spent most of their money, then show up his venue, late.
- Bill is now challenged by the influx of new singers/new slips simultaneously and how best to add them all to the rotation
- The people who had been at and had supported his show all night must now "give way" to the "venue hoppers". Some of whom may have just gotten done singing "across the street", while some of Bill's regulars may have only sung once at his show!

Many of us take for granted that integrating newcomers is a small challenge which can be and is successfully solved with a simple "formula" for interweaving new singers with the old!! I don't think so. What do you think?

I don't have "venue hoppers" (I have the only 2 regular show in town) But I do have people from time to time try to mulipulate the rotation for their advantage. I try not to cater to people that don't suport the bar, other singers or a good time.
I place new singers at the end of the rotation. When I started doing karaoke shows in 2006 my rotation system was a mess. But my worriers beat it into the shape that it's in now.

I have always maintained that rotation management is the hardest yet absolutely, beyond a doubt the very most important part of a KJs job. It wil make or break you and your show.
I also believe there is no one perfect way to run a rotation for every show, it has to evolve with the show itself.

As a general rule new singers at my show are put at the end of the current rotation, now for some that walk in near the end of the current rotation, well they luck out. If they walk in at the start of a new rotation they have to wait. And of course this can and does change depending on the total number of singers.

My singers all sing in the same spot in the rotation all night (even as the rotation grows) regardless of wether they sing one bring one or turn a slip in 20 min after they have sung or turn in multiple slips (which I try to discourage)

Yes, I also have the hoppers, but I know who they are and they definetly go to the end of the current rotation if it just started or the end of the next rotation if I am near the end of the current rotation. Let them P&M, or better yet get frustated and leave.

I try to run as fair of a rotation as is humanly possible and my singers know that and thank me all the time. (even some that have tried to bribe me, and over a live mic I tell them I do not accept bribes)

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Music speaks to the heart in ways words cannot express.

It matters not if you use the "Amusement park" analogy or slipping new singers in. This is a hosts' preference. What really matters is being consistant if you use one stick with it, and your regulars, at least, will know what is what. Consistancy is the ticket.

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You can be strange but not a stranger

Consistancy is the ticket.
Life Rule.

I'll just quickly summarize my position:

I insert new singers on a one-to-one ratio. Old singer, new singer, old singer, new singer (depending on how many I have). I'm not going to try to divulge whether people are bar-hopping or how much money they're spending at my venue or what have you. I'm going to be fair to everyone regardless and give everyone a chance to sing. And to be clear, I never insert a new singer within a couple songs after turning in their slip unless I don't have a big rotation. They'll usually wait at least 5 or 6 songs, which is when I start inserting them on the one-to-one ratio.

I appreciate the stance of those who place new singers at the end of a rotation, but if it were my first time going to that show, it'd also be my last.

Just my opinion.

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hi-voxentertainment

Here is a copy of my rotation policy posted on my website and in my books. (Not that anyone pays attention to what's printed in my book, other than the songs.)

1. I HATE sing one, bring one, period. Bring me two, three, or seven slips at a time. I am somewhat intelligent and can figure out where to put you in the line-up.

2. I will arrange the slips so that everyone sings in the same order every rotation. Unless you hand me your slip in the last hour, then there's no guarantee you will sing.

3. I will NOT move your song's placement if you plan to leave early. I cannot make 20-30 people mad to please you and your friends.

4. I will put new singers ahead of the rotation change. (See Example below.)

5. I will skip you in the rotation if you try to change your name on your song slips. If the name on your first slip is Jeff, don't try to pass me another slip with your last name or nickname on it.

6. Please, Please, Please, fill out the song request slips completely. If you have trouble finding a particular song number, I will help you. I cannot look up everyone's song numbers, however, it's not possible. If you don't write the title of the song on the slip, I can't tell if the song you want to sing matches the number on your slip.

7. I will call you when it's your turn. If you ask me when you are up next, OVER and OVER, I will probably tell you, "It may be awhile." Depending on my mood, I may move you down a couple of notches in the rotation. I will be fair to everyone.

Example:

Rotation 1:

1. Kathy 2. Ashley 3. Chase 4. Kevin 5. Amanda 6. Shawn 7. Jim

Rotation 2:

1. Kathy 2. Ashley 3. Chase 4. Kevin 5. Amanda 6. Shawn 7. Jim 8. Jake (new) 9. Michelle (new) (if no new singers turn in a song, go to rotation 3)

Rotation 3:

1. Kathy 2. Ashley 3. Chase 4. Kevin 5. Amanda 6. Shawn 7. Jim 8. Jake 9. Michelle 10. Jack (new) 11. Jill (new) Etc. Etc..


It works for me, might not work for everyone. My regulars appreciate the fact that they won't get bumped for a "newbe" or a venue hopper. My regulars also understand that glasses of water won't keep me playing there, so they usually do a good job of supporting the bar.

I noticed that people from the city that is 30 minutes away from the small town that I play don't buy drinks. They just come in, sing once or twice and sip water while they are there. I remind everyone that water will make karaoke disappear, and they usually buy a beer or two.

One more thought: I agree that being consistant is very important. My regulars usually know when they are up and are there before I announce their name. It makes me happy to know that my rotation doesn't go unnoticed or unappreciated.

Rotation management is a non-issue where I come from, since we use table rotation.

Guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one Swirl... you present your case with intelligence, and I respect that. Sorry you'd hate to attend my show!

For the record, Lonnie inserts singers. I don't necessarily like it, but he runs a good show, so I deal with it. I would deal with it at your show or someone elses. It's a quiet little gripe I have. It's not enough to make me leave a show or think of not attending in the future!

Now if you couple that with not being able to play customer cdgs, or had a crappy sound system... that's another thing altogether!

Peace m'man!

Whew

Good to see that, so far, the majority agrees with the conclusion I've come to in regard to this challenge - stick to the original rotation and add new folks at the end

And while some would avoid a show that makes them wait as a latecomer, I'll only go to shows where late arrivals are placed in the order of "natural" rotation before they sing. If minimizing the wait is an important criteria to someone when selecting a show, arrive early!

Swirl,

I don't want to make this sound personal, but clearly you find it necessary to justify your theory that latecomers have "valid" reasons for arriving late and that those "valid" reasons bestow upon them the same priviliges as someone who has spent the entire evening with you (spending money) and supporting your existence in all aspects of the word.

Please, with all respect, consider that if someone was out eating dinner somewhere else, they chose to spend their hard earned money elsewhere - not in support of your show. If you were to look at each individual as a contributor to your paycheck rather than as someone who has a right to a turn at singing, you may come to a different conclusion than you now maintain. I assure you, if you posed the question to the owner of the venue, he'd be more concerned about satisfying the "paying customers" and could care less with how many times anyone is singing who isn't supporting his venue with their hard earned dollars!

Using my Vegas example, I'd love to have been at a gambling table all evening and gone to the karaoke show for a 1/2 hour, or so, just in time to sing once and then leave to return to the tables. And... I'd have had 2 hours more to spend at the gambling tables and $20 more to gamble with. Wouldn't that have been sweet?

And, IMHO, to take such a position as you have stridently done, indicates that you have never been in and can't empathize with the position I found myself in in Vegas! Rather, I guess, you're used to being the latecomer?

My own rotation has become a lot more fair since joining the forum. I used to freely micromanage the order, but now usually only insert if there is a vacancy on the board (when someone leaves.) But there are always a few exceptions... the four singers who I consider the heart and soul of the room (and it's contemporary non-country direction), and that occasional song that just has to get in there to break up a string of boring ones.

Since taking the hands off the steering wheel (so to speak) the room has definitely gone more country. I now have several regulars who sing nothing else but. It's still a fit though because they're singing new stuff. Most (but not all) traditional singers (country and otherwise) are still put off by the rap, hiphop, grunge, metal, lack of language restrictions, and incessant pounding of the 18" subs.

As many of you know I never set out to do general purpose karaoke. It was supposed to be just a few of us getting together on a Thursday and having fun. The fact that it has become probably the busiest karaoke room in the area was unplanned and a complete surprise to me. And a shock to this quiet, out of the way little bar that previously would only have more than a few people in it during pool league.

I have an adaptive style of Rotation Management yet it is still consistent.

Depending on when the newbies come in I will either blend them into the rotation about every 4th singer or If they come in towards the end of the rotation I will play them all at the end of that rotation before starting another. Once they are in the rotation that is where they stay until they leave. My theory on blending is that they get to sing within 20-30 minutes and need not wait for 1 hour to sing it also gives the appearance that the rotation is favorable and they may get to sing more songs in a night here. Yet blending one new singer in every 4th position is normally just fine with the regulars as they know what I'm doing and why.

If they (newbies) come in a group then blending them in throughout the rotation extends their visit as they need to wait for the last singer in their group to finish before they can leave. It gives the bar a better chance to serve them a couple more drinks etc.

Regardless of what the excuse is I NEVER move anyone up in the rotation Period!

Compuhost has a really nice clock system to assist me in placing people. It tracks the time the person was placed in the rotation and when their next performance will be. I can manipulate the singer in the rotation to accomodate my 20-30 minute target time. It also helps me to give an exact time to someone who ask the "When will I be up next" question as I can give them an exact time within 30 seconds one way or the other.

This is what has been successful for my shows. I have had many long term 2-3-5 year gigs and I believe that rotation management has been an important factor in the long term success of my shows.

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FlipSide Karaoke
Scott

I'm of the "slip-em'in" school - however, I might add that wherever a person is placed in the rotation, if the rotation moves quickly (16-18 singers an hour), most are happy. If the atmosphere in the establishment is a fun one, and there are other distractions (games on the television sets, etc.), it really becomes a moot point. If the rotation is long at a place I'm visiting, and the host takes an inordinate amount of time to move from singer to singer, that'll kill my enthusiasm before anything. I know a lot of hosts are trying to combine CAV players and CDG players but it seems to me there has to be a faster way to integrate these two systems - 2 minutes between singers means you're being limited to few far singers per hour. Has to be a REALLY interesting and entertaining host, in my books, with that much time spent waiting. JMHO.

k

It's great how some hosting software provides statistics for managing the rotation. But, let's face it, a rotation of 30 minutes is not that challenging. It's when the rotation approaches or exceeds 1 hour that people get antsy.

And it's unlikely with such a large rotation that after singing during the first hour that anyone will sing again for quite awhile if newcomers are slipped into the original rotation during the second cycle. So both new arrivals as well as those who arrived at the start of the show, typically, get to sing once in the first two hours. That being the case, why bother coming at the start of the show?


PS:
Flipper,

Thanx, your observation regarding groups was insightful - I learn something everyday!

Yeah the time keeper feature is just a Tool. What it helps me do is give them an accurate time based upon current rotation movement. It seems to comfort them and makes it easy for me to just look to the right of their name and the time is at my fingertips. It also assists me when someone feels that they have waited longer than the should have as it shows the time they were put into the rotation, their last performance and their next time up. It usually ends the confusion. Basically I only use it a few times a night but I like it being there.

I have to agree with you ericlater.....rotation times usually are not a problem unless you run over 1 hour. Unless you have a room full of young 20 somethings that are in the party mode.. Then it's like "I wanna, I wanna, I wanna sing now type of thing"

I have a scrolling rotation order at the bottom of the screen that allows 15 singers to be displayed so knowing where they are in rotation is not a problem. That basically shows the next hour of singers. I generally announce this if the rotation goes above 20.

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FlipSide Karaoke
Scott

Actually, yeah, I have been in that position before, and I'm being honest when I say it doesn't bother me that much. If ten new singers entered right after my last song, it'd suck, yeah, but I'd either deal with it or go to another show that I know is a bit slower.

I guess when I go to a show, I just don't take that kind of stuff to heart. I know others do, and that's fine, but I'm just as happy to sit, drink and chat with my pals while waiting for my turn.

Also, what about the tagalong friends that don't sing but spend loads of cash at the bar? Do they not make up for those that drink water or soda all night long? For instance, I have a regular who comes to my show about 90% of the time, but has never spent a dime on alcohol. She arrives early and sings all night long. Should I penalize her because she doesn't spend money?

Conversely, there is a group of people who come in super late because they work at a restaurant across the way, and the bartender has told me on numerous occasions what their bar tab (almost always one tab) amounts to, which typically doubles what any other group might spend there throughout the course of the night. Three or four of the group of six or seven are also singers. Because they haven't been there all night, but have spent a considerable amount of money, how should they fall in the rotation?

My point to all this is that it's not my job to determine how much someone spends, where they were before they got there, etc. My job is to entertain, and to do my best to keep people coming back. Only on rare occasions has anyone gotten upset, and truth to tell, it WASN'T a regular.

I'm cool with the way you guys run your rotations, especially if it works for you. All I've done is present my position, and let you know that it's not a show I'd be happy to attend. If the rotations remained short, sure, but if I walked in at 11:30 and knew I had 20 singers ahead of me, I'd turn around and walk back out. Nothing personal.

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hi-voxentertainment

My rotation is similar to Flippers. Adding new people in is like a science though. It depends how long the rotation is. If people have been waiting 2 hours to sing I won't add a newbie in as soon as 4 singers down the rotation. They have to wait a half an hour or so. If I have a very small rotation they'll go at the end. If I have 20 or so in the rotation I'll add new people every 4th singerish.

I really don't get bar hoppers. It's a nonissue for me.

I've been at the same location so long that people understand how my rotation works and don't have a problem with it. I've never had anyone tell me they don't like how I do it.

Timberlea has stated it best. As long as you are consistant and run a fair rotation it doesn't matter what system you use.

The main thing is my people know I stick to my rotation. No one gets favored. I've heard people even tell others I won't push them up in rotation for any reason. They will have to wait their turn like everyone else.

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[updown]~*~ MONKEY BUSINESS KARAOKE~*~ [/shadow][/updown][/glow]

So you know, I don't ALWAYS insert new singers on a one-to-one basis. Sometimes I'll skip a few so it doesn't appear I'm giving anyone preferential treatment. I like the idea mentioned above of inserting new singers every three to four. It really depends on how many I have.

And I don't know if I've said this or not, but by no means am I saying my way is the right way. It's the way I like to run my show, and it works. I've been at it long enough and very rarely have complaints.

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hi-voxentertainment

Sorry for my ignorance, what is a table rotation?