Karaoke Forums

I was researching this topic, and found the website for KAPA, the Karaoke Anti-Piracy Agency. Their site answers several of the issues that I keep seeing debated on here, so I thought I would share what I found. All of the following segments are from their site:

ASCAP - BMI - SESAC - collect performance royalties. This is one of the most misunderstood areas for KJs. Any bar or club that plays any kind of music, whether it be a jukebox, live band, radio or Karaoke host, must pay a fee for the use of music in a public place. If the club has no music, then the KJ or club owner must work out a deal as to who is going to pay the fees for the license of the bar or club.

The use of an unlicensed copied product is illegal. The copyright laws are very clear about the fundamental legalities of copying copyrighted materials which includes many other products than music. Basically, the law permits you to make an unlicensed copy of a copyrighted disc for your OWN PERSONAL USE only. If you want to listen to the copied disc in your home or your car, that is legal. You may not make an unlicensed copy of a disc for ANY COMMERCIAL USE. That means that you cannot make an unlicensed copy as a gift, as a promotional item, for sale, for use in promoting another product, for use in a show or publication, and a myriad of other commercial applications. If you are using the songs on a disc for any reason other than your own personal listening, you must use the original disc.

IN ORDER TO USE A COPY OF A COPYRIGHTED PRODUCT, YOU MUST HAVE THE WRITTEN PERMISSION OF THE COPYRIGHT OWNER. Many manufacturers have Licensing Agreements for the use of their products in various applications. If you want to use a song or disc in a commercial application, you will need to contact the manufacturer and apply for the licensing rights for your application.

If I buy a hard drive system that has pre-loaded songs, can I legally play these songs?
If the hard drive system has LICENSED content, it is certainly legal to play any of these licensed products. Before you buy any such machine, you should ask to see the licensing rights for the music loaded on the machine. There should be a licensing agreement between each music manufacturer and the company producing the player for all the music loaded on the player. Also, you should demand a copy of the licensing agreement before you order or accept delivery of your machine. Make sure that you have copies of agreements that cover every song on your machine. If you are using a player with illegally copied songs, you are still liable for their presence on your machine. Your machine and its entire library can be confiscated as evidence if there are any illegal songs - effectively putting you out of business.

If I own my own discs, can I load them onto a hard drive to play them in a show, etc.?
No, you MAY NOT load songs from other manufacturers on your hard drive. The licensing rights for music on a hard drive machine exist only between the machine manufacturer and the music provider. These rights do not extend to the owner of the machine, to load songs from other manufacturers on the hard drive player. Copying the discs on to a hard drive is still copying the discs. Legally, it is absolutely no different than burning a copy of the discs. In order to copy your discs on to your hard drive, you have to have the written permission of the company that produced the discs and owns the copyrights.

What companies license their music for play on a hard drive?
Licensing agreements for content are individual agreements with the any hard drive player manufacturers. As of July 1, 2005, there are no known agreements with any active karaoke music manufacturing company. If you consider purchasing any system with music produced by any other manufacturers, it is highly likely that the music has been illegally copied onto that hard drive. Make sure that you ask for, and get a copy of the licensing agreement between the machine and music manufacturers prior to purchasing the player.

If I am hosting a Karaoke show, may I record the singers and give them a copy of their performance? In addition, may I charge for the service of copying their performance?
In order to do this, you must first get the licensing rights from the Karaoke copyright owner. Contact the Karaoke music company that produces the music that you use and ask for their licensing department. Many Karaoke music companies grant blanket licenses for a nominal monthly fee to use their music and record a copy for the individual singer. You cannot record the singer(s) without this licensing permission from the Karaoke copyright holder. Recording the singer and the music without permission is copyright infringement.

I host shows with original CDGs. May I sell videotape copies of a performer singing with a CDG?
Please see the answer to the question above. This is the same situation, except that the media for recording the singer is a video tape rather than a cassette or CD. You must have the permission of the copyright owner to record their music.

THEY HAVE NO RIGHT TO QUESTION YOUR LEGALITY. I fact the only one they should be talking to is the bar owner. As a former member of the link and talking to current members they know these organizations are totally out of control and use mafia type tecniques to pressure bar owners. In fact we think they were taken over by organized crime.



One reproduction does not require licensing in any form. This includes videos. However 2 or more is considered distribution and does require the proper licences. Selling one reproduction is no different than selling a photo or video taping of a customer. To put it on the net or broadcast does require their permission.

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Woh ho ho ho, what a kettle of worms this is! What about the sites that are selling dls of mp3+g tracks? If what this paragraph says is true how can they legally sell downloadable tracks to consumers if, in fact, it's illegal to have said copy of the track on your machine UNLESS you have a written agreement from the track manufacturers? How ridiculous is this ffs

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All of the info from their site was obtained from the copyright laws. You cannot make even one recording of someone's performance without the proper licensing, you cannot use copies of your discs, in any professional manner, without the proper licensing, and you can't have your songs on a hard drive in any professional manner without licensing. If you have any questions about the validity of what I found, don't shoot the messenger...check out their site. PS...I've also heard of the mafia-like tactics of groups like RIAA, etc...one KJ had to password protect his schedule because his venues weren't paying their dues and were getting hounded because his schedule was online.

By the way...I'm not saying I agree with any of what their site said. I think a lot of the piracy laws are unfair. I was researching this because I'm hoping to start a karaoke biz at some point and want to get an idea of the legalities of the music...I've received a lot of conflicting info. I posted it cause there's usually a lot of conflicting opinions/info on the subject on here as well...and wanted to help...not trying to cause any problems.

In My No-So-Humble Opinion:

In karaoke the music is incidental and therefore there are no actual damages. People are singing karaoke for the purpose of becoming better singers and is therefore covered under the Fair Use doctrine. Hard drive based karaoke is on the hard drive for convenience of playing and is being used for the purpose it was sold and is therefore covered under a number of laws common and statute. In short, I think KAPA is full of BS.

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Okay, who took my pants?

candi, this has been debated ad nauseum.

Those of us that have converted to computer KNOW that TECHNICALLY it's illegal, but there have been several discussions bringing in legal experts that universially state something along the lines of as long as the master discs aren't in use you can convert to other media for the convienience and use.

And you're not the only die-hard disc user here. Nor am I the only one that believes in the capability and the RIGHT to use my computer.

Even if I don't have "The Right" to use my computer in a commercial setting, there is the concept of "no harm, no foul" for those of us that are only using the computer for a playing of the material.

Like I said, I was just trying to be helpful...not start a debate. I've seen articles about KJs being nabbed by the music police, people being sued for hundreds of thousands of dollars (and losing for that amount) because they downloaded less than 10 songs illegally...and I think it's stupid. My personal beliefs on how KJs run their shows have nothing to do with it. I for one, plan to follow the law as closely as possible if and when I get a show up and running...but that's me...I'm VERY paranoid.

Now, since this has apparently turned into a debate when I didn't want it to be, I have something to say. Here's a challenge to those of you who feel it's basically your right to break the law, knowing full well you're doing it...make a public stand to that effect including all the details for the music police to find you...if it's your right, you should be willing to stand up for it.

Very well said Matt !

Candi I didn't take any offense to your post. I understood you were just trying to help clarify things. It actually was interesting to read what they had on their site. Matt is right though we have debated the subject to death and there is no reason for us to argue about it. Everyone has their own opinion on the subject and I can respect that, but lets not argue.

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Thanks Babs,
I'm not trying to argue...more getting defensive than anything. I feel like I'm being attacked for trying to do something good. I was attacked on another thread as well, because I haven't posted a lot...so obviously my opinion doesn't matter. Now I post something that has nothing to do with my personal opinion, and I feel like I'm being attacked on this thread as well...whether I was or not. Someone said it best in a message I just read...if this is the way newbies are treated it's no wonder they don't stick around. I came to this forum hoping to make some new friends, and valuable insight. Instead, everyone's attacking each other all the time (and I don't just mean me...I'm seeing it in A LOT of threads)...what's wrong with this place? To those of you that make everyone feel welcome...thank you...we have enough bs to deal with in our daily lives....we don't need it in our cyber lives too. (OK, grammar police, come arrest me!)

Your fine Candi. Sometimes opinions stated in a post form sound like an attack and really aren't meant that way. It takes a bit of time to get used to forum talk. For the most part people are friendly here. Unless someone out right calls you a name they are just stating their opinion. Some post topics are an instant argument. Priracy laws have always been a touchy subject. Don't be discouraged

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This is a federal issue. When congress passes a law which deems this illegal then we are illegal. Until then federal judges or DA'S have nothing to prosecute upon. IT SIMPLE AS THAT!! THIS IS AMERICA!!!

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This is a federal issue. When congress passes a law which deems this illegal then we are illegal. Until then or DA'S or judges have nothing to prosecute upon. IT SIMPLE AS THAT!! I will fight for any KJ or DJ trying to make an honest living. If you disagree with this then come bust me... My exact location and schedule is at WWW below

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This is old news & has been beaten to death. Some people feel they should have the right to use hard drives on a 1:1 ratio only, while others feel that these users are now thieves even though nothing in their show has changed other than the way the media is played.
Kapa is not an enforcement agency & have no rights. They haven't even had any activity of their own since 03 or so & that was a serious pirate copying hundred of discs for selling/distribution/profit. There recent stories are on others selling multiple hard drives on the auction sites. They have yet to (nor can anyone find or put up a link to) have anything on a simple karaoke company that owns all their discs (and actually has individual sets PER computer - not just 1 set of discs to run all their shows) that simply transferred the media to hard drive for convenience.

The computer users here I would bet outnumber the physical disc users here (don't quote me). Most of us have our www link up & displayed.
Again all of the busts that were done were due to creating multiple hard drives & multiple disc copies for the intent of selling/profiting.

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Candi

I did not see any attacks from any posters on this thread. I went back and re-read the responses twice and still cannot see them. You are new to the forum and my suggestion is that you try not to read too much into the replies. Written word can be misunderstood quite easily on forums.

This particular subject is guaranteed to get some reactions you don't want. If you want to butt heads with someone this is a perfect subject to bring up.. My take from your posts is you are getting quite defensive thinking you are getting attacked. They are not attacking you, but the KAPA info. By the way this is an all but defunct organization anyway. They have no teeth and have not published anything new on that site for about 2 years or better. There are far better organizations that supply info on the subject and are not owned by any Karaoke Companies.

I think that there are plenty of helpful people here that are very interesting to chat with and there is a wealth of information here for all of us to learn from.

Relax, Enjoy, and try not to read too much into the replies. Most folks here mean well and they represent the majority.

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FlipSide Karaoke
Scott

Thanks Flipper...btw glad to hear you're starting to feel better. I know I should have taken a step back and re-read everything...I was having a VERY bad day besides being attacked on another thread. I was having computer and karaoke equiment (cheap P.O.S. home unit)problems all day, and researching those laws was the first thing that went right. Since I had been researching the issue off and on for quite some time and couldn't find any reliable info that wasn't full of legalese before going to that site...I was just really excited to share it and do something nice. I'll just co crawl into a hole now....

Candi I'm having a shot of butter scotch. Want one?

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Oh....that sounds REALLY good...pour me one!

Here now....Don't be crawling into any holes anytime soon!!..

The legality issue constantly tugs at all of us and some of us still have some nerve endings exposed. For some it's an ethical issue, for some it's practicality and and common sense, and to others it's both.

I finally had to decide what was ethically correct and made the most sense for me and go with it. Even though I know that I may be breaking a law, format shifting makes perfect sense from a practical and business standpoint. Much of the music I purchased early on was deteriorating due to use and poor quality media, and about 40% is now not available for replacement. I made a business decision pure and simple to protect my investment.

One day the laws will be crystal clear and there may be actual case histories that include enforcement of KJ's and format shifting. There is too much gray area at this point in time to know where we stand. Once it becomes clear I will make the adjustments to be in compliance. Till then I must go with my gut feeling.

This is a decision I made 5 years ago after tons of research on the subject. You will find no absolutes just opinions.

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FlipSide Karaoke
Scott

Well said Flipper! I too made the same choice as you after much consideration. To a small business owner protecting your investment is paramount to the success of your business and, to me at least, that outweighed all consequences. I personally feel if I spent the money I should be able to protect said investment.

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[shadow=white][scroll]Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass.....It's about learning to dance in the rain[/scroll][/shadow]