Karaoke Forums

There is a phenomenon, Actors often hate watching themselves act..

How do ANY of you know you are :good singers: ? Can ANYONE hear themselves as they sound to the audience ? or does that take a lot of time within itself, developing the ability to hear oneself when singing ?

I'm wondering if this is why singing is often tougher for cover instrumentalists.. When we sing we don't hear Stratocaster sounding like a part played by David Gilmour, or an Electric piano beginning that sounds like the opening to a Supertramp song. If we've spent our life trying to become something else, and cloning, would this make singing particular tough ?

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Good I suppose is just an aquired sound that in time evolves and is transient ?,

Now I have to wonder. Are cover musicians that grew up classically trained in an era that had strict rules, or those of us that had training that didn't allow for creativity (I suppose lending to us being conservative artists) EVER going to be able to tolerate newness and difference in OUR voices that isn't conventionally accepted as mainstream style but deviates from exact cover ability ?


(This is my concern with a degree of dishonesty in the showcase for those of us that need to "keep it real", and know where we TRULY stand).. WE NEED HELP ! meaning the ears of others.

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Kappy I have sang in bars where everybody was drunk and totally unaware that anybody was singing. A few times in my life I have walked out totally emotionally and physically drained because i got nothing back. Whether I get applause or not I can feel when I have given the crowd energy for you can feel the new energy and they are talking more and louder. I use this as a host to judge crowds. Do not concentrate on singing but those watching and smiling. They give you energy which you put back into the song and it multiplies. The audience is a mirror of whether you are connecting. Remember in a bar they are imbibing and not sitting there judging but just wanting good singing from the heart.

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I suppose Paula stated the double-whammy earlier meaning

1) First a person must learn to sing and work with what they have
2) Cloning and covering is a skill within itself


Is this all much easier on a musical instrument than with our singing voices ? I'm struggling to sound like those I sing out of habit.. It's just what I learned is supposed to be.. As a result there's little margin for forgiveness when I hear the finished product..

What enables a cover singer to be a "Great cover singer" ? Is that training or God given similarity in vocal chord structure ?

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Yeah, but Ollie, Isn't the crowd most impressed by the singer that gets up there, and sings an Andy Williams song NAILING the nuances of Andy Williams ? Let's forget "the bar" aspect and alcohol. I am talking about "Singers", not Karaoke singers. That's the difference..

Actual "good singers" in ANY setting where their genre is appreciated by sober individuals ! I wish for something such as alcohol that skews perception removed from this factor..

"Good singer" or since I stated "Good" is so often subjective let me rephrase this as Conventionally NOT overly-processed or contrived talented cover vocalist in the pop ballad music genre of the second half of the 1900's.. The front singer that can sing many styles quite well... I'm thinking those such as Billy (OK what now) who assuming they make a song their own still have "the sound". How do I get "the sound" ?

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Some need training yet I have had 4 year olds at karaoke that knock your socks off.
Kappy do this take new songs every genre that you havnt heard the artist sing yet. Sing them a few times as you interpret and believe how they should be sang. Then listen to the artist. I have done this for years and find these so called pros dont even have a feel for the song. They rely upon effects and synthesis during the recording process. IT COMES FROM THE HEART NOT VOCAL CHORDS...

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It's taken quite a bit of time, but I've learned to listen to recordings of myself in a "distanced" manner. I listen to a recording of myself, and treat it as if I were listening to anyone BUT me. I listen critically - what was done with the phrasing, where breath was taken, was that not on pitch?

Yes, there are things I am far pickier about when listening to myself or listening to someone else, but the principle for critiquing my own performance is the same as critiquing anyone else's performance. I am MORE critical of my performance than of anyone else's - there are things I will let other people slide on that I will beat myself up over. But, from a critical stand-point, good singing is good singing, and ya know what? Dammit, I AM good.

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"I hold the key to an open door....will I ever be free...?"

That makes perfect sense Opera kitty, thank you..

Objectivity and being at a point where I compare myself to "a singer" is likely a bad idea, and at this point, just a means of beating myself up. I assume first we must get used to not only singing principles, but OUR VOICES which psychologically we are often critical of to begin with. Only AFTER we have achieved that, it makes sense that given time and technique, we can shoot for consistency and a goal and learn to recognize when WE achieve it.. and yes... to me, I'm still stuck in the rut.. If it's not THE BEST you can do, you shouldn't perform it.. but this time last year, I was so ashamed of my voice (not that I still am not ashamed of it) that I'd NEVER sing for anyone to hear.. I guess I need to keep things in perspective, a year is still VERY new.. and although to me it doesn't feel new, I guess I have expectations that are just sources of self-torture...

Since I want to do it badly enough, I won't give up but DANG... DOES THIS EVER get frustrating

Perhaps learning a musical instrument would be tougher than I assume it to be if I first started in my 50's, but since I was about 3 or 4 I just don't recall things being THIS brutal !

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

I think out've literally thousands of attempts at singing all and all, there is ONE song I am proud of. I HOPE I'm not wrong about this one song though..... If I am, I would like to know however. I'm trying to establish a reference point as to "how to listen to myself"... The fact that I can not hear the inaccuracy and inability to support my falsetto scared the #($( out've me.. I really am CLUELESS.. It's that meshing of imagination of being the singer vs reality and accuracy in hearing... but I'll tell yeah, it's really embarassing that I can't hear myself.

But than I begin to think how they state "Nature is kind".. Often ugly and really lousy people don't perceive themselves as such psychologically either, there's that block.. So the fear naturally is thinking at some point (after 10 years of REALLY sucking) I'm great, and making a garish flambouyant a## out've myself.

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Jian, for folks such as you and myself, wouldn't it truthfully be helpful if we could ask for HONEST rank (as a means of knowing where we stand) and have people NOT fear saying "that was a 1, you aren't ready for that yet", or "It's still below average 'perhaps a 3' because you seem to be trying to achieve something and losing the whole focus of how to sing that type song"... That doesn't hurt at all ! It's a blessing because it gives me a goal !


THAT is what I need !!!!

This means when somebody says WOW Kappy, that wasn't bad, perhaps a "7", I can feel my work and efforts have paid off, and I'm heading in a forward direction. This is the only reason I EVER exposed my awful voice to begin with, to get help learning how to sing... It'd be nice if we actually had "Singers Showcase", as opposed to the current "Just Karaoke showcase"..


I wish to know where I stand compared to actual singers who are likely just 8's on average assuming they are really good... I REALLY want to keep it real !! Yet this goes against "Karaoke" grain..

The greatest help I've gotten have been comments from folks saying, "I'm not one to fluff, that song is WAY to high for you, it sounds pretty nasty"..

How can that EVER hurt me ? It's something I should know, it's THE TRUTH..

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Is it possible to have a small "Critique" and "rank" "Singers Forum" that is moderated, MUST remain civil, but all critique and rank is stated and not anonymous be peers helping peers ? Those that promise we can take it ? Here's the thing, In the Showcase many don't wish to see me get a "2", but I want a "2"... So where can I go to get my well deserved sucky rank and hardcore criticism ? Some think this is masochistic, but it's not.. It's having love and respect for "art" and wanting to earn our rank !!! I might have a song that is a 7 or 8.. I think I might have one... but if 99% are "2" I REALLY want to hear it...

"Singers showcase" and "Just Karaoke singing Showcase" which is what the current showcase really is can't exist within the same venue.

Aren't there others that want to hear what others are thinking and not saying regarding poor attempts, that need no sugar coating ? It's not for most, true.. But some of us haven't allowed an ego to enter into what we are terming "singing" thus-far. I've got the humility thing down, I suck, and that's fine.. but I wish to know where I suck on a scale of 1-3 too at times !

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Couple of things Kappy
I've generally found that the better a singer is- the harder they will find it to listen to themselves and actually "like" what they hear without nit picking. I practice each song hours- sometimes YEARS until I "think" it's "as good as it's gonna get" and even then I STILL find things that could be better....but as operakitty said-along with that experience comes a confidence that "yeah- I can be good without having to be perfect" along with the acceptance that- unless you are professionally mixed in a top of the line studio with a first class producer- you will. most likely, NEVER be "perfect" Did you know that Whitney Houstons "I will always love you" was the result of FOURTY NINE different takes that were skillfully mixed and edited together? (I know one of the guys that works at the studio where it was recorded) he said they almost NEVER got a decent take all the way through- no matter HOW good the singer is.

Regarding what you said about cover.cloning and working with what you have- the best analogy I can make is
"What you are capable of doing" (your range, style, genre specialization etc) are the "FRAME" or boundarys of what you should sing. For example, with very few exceptions a person who has a fairly normal range of say 1.5 to 2 octaves- who specializes in country music(meaning that is what they listen to and try to stylize themselves after) should NOT try to sing classical opera- it wouldn't fit in MOST cases. I guess you could say your frame is the set if limitations you have based on your training and physical ability.

That brings us to the next point the "cover" singer. Singing covers is the canvas of your talent. You will normally choose to mimic singers that fall within the frame of YOUR ability, meaning you will naturally be drawn to people whop share similar styles and ranges. This is a great foundation to prepare yourself to take it to the next level. (And you should feel something of a mastery at being a good "cover" singer before you DO attempt to move on) SO your canvas is the base of what styles you are drawn too- and the singers that influenced you as you learn to sing. And you definitely need to go through a stage where you mimic/cover other singers to learn the inflection and phrasing unique to whatever style you are trying to master

The final level in the PAINT that covers the canvas- but still fits in the frame of your ability. This is where creativity and developing a style that is unique to YOU comes in. But you can't hope to successfully do this unless you have a good understanding of what your FRAME is and what type of CANVAS you will be working on are. Does this make sense? This is where you develop your inflection, intonations- the places where you break from chest to head, and interpretation of lyrics.

Aretha Franklin grew up listening to Mahalia Jackson and you can hear it in her voice- but there are unique differences-so that you will never mistake the two as interchangeable, Michael Buble and Hary Connick grew up listening to Frank Sinatra- yet they are both distinctive from him and each other, I grew up listening to All the great torch singers of the 30's to the 60's as all the great R&B singers of the 70's. But I was also a classically trained singer(where I learned support, phrasing and inflection...as well as how to impose theatrical expression into my voice) The Paint is where you stop trying to imitate or cover the "masters" and begin to impose your own style into what you sing. I think that this is possibly the most difficult thing any singer will ever do.

MY frame is my range which is about 3.5 octaves, a good strong support/phrasing system, and for the most part a jazz style that was greatly influenced by everything from R&B to the torch singers. My canvas is anything from Broadway to the Blues...and my paint is the R&B flavored style with which I will alter a song to be uniquely "me" Go listen to Moondance and desperado in my songlist over in the showcase they are examples of what I am saying.

Do I think these songs are good---well I had the nerve to sub them BUT- Do I think they are perfect??? HECK NO!!! Not even close!!- but they are as close as I can get without a professional studio and within the limits( and I DO mean LIMITS) of my mixing skill(or lack there of)

But to answer your original post about hearing yourself- I think there is a window with each song that you will notice little(or glaring) imperfections...once you have listened to it and tweeked the flaws as best you can- you will eventually start to "like" what you're hearing. The trick is to hold on to the "objectivity" as long as you can while you make those changes...if you keep listening without critique of yourself- you'll pass up something that prolly should have been "baked" a bit longer ya know?

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and regarding telling someon they are a "one" c'mon Kappy...MOST people know deep inside- unless they are just plain tone deaf and beyond redemption...if they are decent or not.

general habits to watch out for( that generally will be present in an singer who has a long way to go)- I won't say they are a "1" or even a "3" but will stop at saying they have a lot to learn.
You find yourself mixing with your vocals very soft in regard to the music--or trying to HIDE behind the track
You find yourself adding so much reverb to the mix that it sounds like someone else- or muddy sounding( this doesn't disguise when a person can't sing)
You notice that you're holding back for fear that your neighbors will hear- don't be afraid- chances are anhone listening won't be able to do any better!
you find yourself pulling away from the mic if you think you're going to make a mistake or if you doubt that you can "hit" the note-(** I even see many "PRO" musicians do this- and it doesn't fool ANYONE!)

these are all things I have noticed the "less than wonderful" singers in the SS doing. I guess these people would be the ones you would rate a 1-3. BUT...would I ever tell anyone they are a "1" NOPE! NEVER...it isn't about bashing them and pointing out how far they have to go...it's about helping and supporting where I can. When a novice singer is starting they need affirmation...only a very GOOD singer is ready for a genuine critique. Lemme say that again...ONLY a VERY "GOOD" vocalist will ever TRULY be ready for a completely blunt and honest critique. Any one else will be so hurt and defensive that nothing positive will get past those two powerful emotions that could be useful.I know this from years of vocal coaching(both in teachers that have coached ME and when I have coached my students) So- because I don't know where each person is in their needs- I find something positive to say about whatever they sub- After all- the best way to help a budding singer is to let them know what they are doing RIGHT and to build confidence....tweeking can come later when they are better suited to handle it!

I NEVER under any circumstances RATE anyone. i think it's a BS system and so widely varied based on each "rater" that it would be impossible to get an accurate feel about any song. What most in the SS give "10" to...I would give a "5" Even on my very best subs0 I would prolly only rate myself at best as an "8" or possibly "9" In the years I have been on this site- I have only heard ...maybe 10 songs that would rate a "10" and they sure weren't "me"

So my advise for YOU personally Kappy is to listen to your instinct- you're a musician- so you can HEAR what's good and what's not. I've only heard one sub from you and you were guilty of the first rule and had your vocals so soft in relationship to the music that no one would have been able to accurately assess your vocals in any way helpful to you. I know that you were hesitant about your singing and that's the result- but of you truly want to learn to sing..you have to sing where you can be heard and assess yourself...then if you still don't like it - sub it and ask people to specifically listen to things that you want to improve on. But I can promise you that the ONLY way to improve- is to practice.Ya gotta sing and sing often and learn how to master your voice and what it can do. Singing can't be learned from a book(or 10K posts):whistle:(wink):whistle: My advice it stop typing and start singing- just jump in there and do it. believe my..I have recordings of myself from 20 years ago that are BLACKMAIL material! ( and I thought i was "all that" when i recorded them!) ! If I've learned one thing...it's the more i learn- the more i realize- how little I know! So my advice as a pro singer- AND as a vocal coach- it jump in there and figure out what you are capable of instead of questioning all these things that will distract you from doing what you want to do.

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Mercy!!!! Paula I think Kappy has met his match, you are as verbose as him

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"Be who you are and say what you feel... Because those that matter... Don't mind...And those that mind... Don't matter."

Vicki-

Paula has some excellent points, things is, I can't hear myself, I haven't a clue, truly. And assuming I wasn't guily of rule 1, I doubt she'd have listened at all..

I think Helplessly hoping is OK, I'm hiding, but I'm using harmony to hide. I'm several voices in this song. I'd say this is roughly a 5 or 6 because "singers" can do it MUCH better IMHO.. But I think it's OK for a still learning guy that eminates weird sounds.

http://www.singsnap.com/snap/watchandli ... /af1252b24

(without the harmony my voice is an embarassment)

But this is where I TRULY run into problems.. Trying to sing the solo stuff

The other stuff I'm currently too embarassed to post. But on the positive side, My "money making" range has increased to two notes Hiding behind, following, and blending with the "frontman" has been my life in music...

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

See, I don't view being told I'm a "2" or "3" as bashing at all. Assuming I do a song totally out've my league and put the song up for performance and it's AWFUL, I respect the honest "2", because in reality the best singers singing cover are generally around an "8" right ? and I'm putting myself in the realm of singers so to me a well deserved and honest "2" just means maybe next year around this time resub'ing the same song I can be the proud earning party of a "3"

I take this seriously, and expect my hard knocks on my way up to the "6" which is likely the best I could EVER possibly be. So reality to me is important, but like yourself Paula, I don't rank or like rank for the most part, It just ticks me off when people feel compelled to give me the highest rank where I sing (when I never ask for it). I do a really good job of Ross Perot/Daffy Duck singing Bob Dylan btw ! Chuck nominated me into the "Hall of fame"

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Paula does indeed have excellent skills, not only as a talented songstress herself but also as a wonderfully patient teacher. You are very lucky Kappy...but bottom line hon, dont make it harder than it has to be

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"Be who you are and say what you feel... Because those that matter... Don't mind...And those that mind... Don't matter."

Vicki-

I suppose it's currently impossible for me to gage "Harder than it needs to be", because I don't have a clue as to what should be, nor do I know ANYTHING about applying what tiny bit I've observed and been told to myself...

Here's a solo attempt- Elvis..HAHAHA

http://www.singsnap.com/snap/watchandli ... y/b4c058bb

I love the Wichita Lineman, and I was told it sounds OK, but I'm too ashamed to post that.. It's a tougher song.. Glen Campbell is tough IMHO... Not sure why, probably because I'm not Glen Cambell ? Dunno

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Thing is, I really have NO ego invested in this. I am a VERY VERY new learner, I suck, I'm at the bottom and will hopefully climb in time as others have (to a limited ceiling of course)- Honesty is ALL I ask for, nothing more.. Blatant and blunt honesty, as an artist I've taken it my whole life.. The other thread and other discussion we had around the holidays last year was different because regarding my singing, I'm at the VERY bottom of the learning area and for me this isn't a theoretical area, I haven't even a clue how to listen to myself, so I'm not professing any musicianship regarding my difficulty singing, that would require I can hear myself. I have a healthy attitude regarding that fact I realize that it's good that at my age I'm at least willing to try to tackle something new, and remain humble.. In the arts HONEST blunt critique is what I grew up with from very young childhood.. Without it, we can't be performing artists, or artists that display our work in any given area IMHO ! Better to get told "Forget it" from day one, than after 30 years of being lied to... That's just my philosophy, and for this reason I am not welcome in the Showcase with such an attitude..

Difference is, I'd like a shot at being able to be some type of singer, and if it's remote harmony in a live band situation, I'll be happy... Just want to know my niche.. I think I'm having a lot of trouble with the "Front man" psychology. I don't know how to be leading instrument in a band situation especially vocalist.. That is among the toughest psychological obstacles to overcome, anyway, I'm working on my diction..

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

song wouldnt even play the whole of the first verse for me...you are running your mic wayyyyyyy too hot Kappy and when you get feedback you are trying to fix it on the fly...that would put anyone off.
You lost weight?

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"Be who you are and say what you feel... Because those that matter... Don't mind...And those that mind... Don't matter."