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SCORPION
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 Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 2:52 am |
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Re Invention @ Wed Sep 17, 2008 1:03 am wrote: SCORPION @ Tue Sep 16, 2008 2:36 am wrote: WOW, does the owner of a business have the right to decide what goes on in his /her business or not.
It sounds like the owner has an issue but I wouldn't say he's a biggot,because a biggot would not even served the men.
If the owner dosen't want spanish or russian or japense karaoke then he should have informed babs of that beforehand and his chicken <span style=font-size:10px><i>(@$%&#!)</i></span> way of handling it was wrong, he needs to grow a pair.
No differnt than a venue that has no swearing,don't we have the freedom of speech.
Don't get to high on your soapboxes and loose sight of the future,you start telling this owner what he can and can't do in his house.Won't belong before you start getting told what you can and can't do in your house.
Case in point-look at the thread dangerous dan has about training and reulations for kj.Haven't seen one post saying (good idea).No kj wants to be told how to run his/her business and neither should the owner of this bar.
If he is a biggot and it is so discusting to his employees and customers,find another job, and for the customers, spend your money somewhere else.
An experience I had--Lived next to a jose' and gloria for 10yrs(spanish couple).We got along great jose' was into collecting antique toys and we would go to auctions and flea markets together just killing a saturday.One saturday it was early evening when we got done at an auction decided to hit a bar(latino) for something to eat,ended up haveing more to drink than we ate.It was getting about midnight when things went bad a guy came up and started talking to jose' (in spanish) I couln't tell what they were saying but knowing jose' for as long as i had the reflection in his voice was not good.The guy was tinkled that jose' had brought me in there and made it very clear that I was not welcome.
Do i think the guy was a biggot,not really or he would have started his sh1t earlier does he have issues YES.More than anything it was the alcohol talking.
People tend to use the race card to quick . Quote: You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. The difference between your story and this story is that the guy saying you weren't welcome in the bar wasn't the bar owner.
As an individual you can be as racist as you want. As a business owner you have anti discriminatory laws that you have to follow, and saying you won't allow a patron to sing Spanish songs at karaoke because you don't want it turning into a Spanish bar is HUGE lawsuit bait.
It's not using the race card when race is brought up as the specific reason for doing something. Using the race card would be if the owner didn't want him to sing because he was too drunk and was worried about equipment being damaged, and the guy complained that he couldn't sing because he was Mexican, ie when one has nothing to do with the other. The comparision I was trying to make was.
1.I don't believe the owner is racist because he dosen't want spanish music in his place.// I don't think the guy that had a problem with me being in a (spanish) bar was a racist he was just drunk.
Just because there is a issue between people of a differnt race dosen't make that a racial issue. The owner is a wanker and the guy that I had a problem with was drunk.
If the patrons wanted to rebel against the owner,continueing to stay there and buy more drinks was not the way to go.If so apauled by the owners actions why didn't they get up and leave and truely make a stand for whats right.
Starting out a posting with" You have absolutley no idea what your talking about "is really clASSy.
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SCORPION
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Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 3:47 am |
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Lonman @ Wed Sep 17, 2008 4:50 am wrote: SCORPION @ Tue Sep 16, 2008 3:36 am wrote: No differnt than a venue that has no swearing,don't we have the freedom of speech. Hasn't hurt our business, actually the high end majority that support the bar nightly are all for it. Which was one of the points I was trying to make an owner has the right to decide how the business is going to conduct itself,if the owner doesn't want to hear cussing the owner has that right.If he dosen't want to hear japenese,russian,french,spanish ect.ect. karaoke he dosen't have to.
In my band I refuse to sing crazy (@$%&#!), I don't need to drop a f-bomb every 3 seconds to be entertaning.Not my style.Songs like that are not in my books.
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Babs
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Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 9:27 am |
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Quote: If the patrons wanted to rebel against the owner,continueing to stay there and buy more drinks was not the way to go.If so apauled by the owners actions why didn't they get up and leave and truely make a stand for whats right.
Sorry to sound like I am tooting my own horn, but the only reason these regulars come to this bar is for me. The owner on many occasions has made people want to leave. He isn't much on the personality side, as you can imagine. They would not leave because they support me and would not want to hurt me in any way. Plus they knew I did not agree with him.
If the owner continued to show strong biast and interferred with my reputation I would quit. Usually he leaves me alone to run my business the way I see fit. The only reason I agreed to tell them myself is because I have a heart and thought I could ease the blow of such a obvious racist decision. I can't imagine enduring racism at any level and really felt horrible for them. Remember the owner said, " I don't want this turning into a mexican bar".
I know when the gentlemen left they felt great that people would stand up to this kind of behaviour, but felt like they needed to leave because the owner was a jerk. A whole bar of people who didn't even know them came to their defense. There is something to be said about that. _________________ [shadow=pink][glow=deepskyblue]. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
[updown] ~*~ MONKEY BUSINESS KARAOKE~*~ [/shadow][/updown][/glow]
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Re Invention
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Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 1:54 pm |
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SCORPION @ Wed Sep 17, 2008 3:47 am wrote:
Which was one of the points I was trying to make an owner has the right to decide how the business is going to conduct itself,if the owner doesn't want to hear cussing the owner has that right.If he dosen't want to hear japenese,russian,french,spanish ect.ect. karaoke he dosen't have to.
Um, yes he does. You seem to be missing the point that we're making, which is that that kind of stuff is discrimination, and the owner of a bar has no right to tell people what language they can speak in. IT IS ILLEGAL TO DO THAT.
There is a huge difference between not allowing profanity and not allowing somebody to speak in a foreign language.
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lordairgtar
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Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 2:08 pm |
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SCORPION @ Tue Sep 16, 2008 2:36 am wrote:
No differnt than a venue that has no swearing,don't we have the freedom of speech.
Mmmmm, not quite the same. Clearly the bar owner is a jerkwad for giving Babs the job of dealing with music he didn't care to allow. And yes he IS a bigot, he told her he didn't want his bar to become a "Mexican bar". In reference to freedom of speech, that does not refer to swearing, although the baser of us may think so. In a private business, "freedom of speech" has no sway, as the owner may ask you to not curse. That would be his right. To deny a patron the chance to enjoy his ethnic music, just because of his ethnicity in a musical setting where he picks his songs may be illegal.
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SCORPION
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Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 2:09 pm |
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Babs, your not tooting your own horn.Its great that you have a good group of regulars,and as I said before this owner is a wanker but he still has the right to determine what genre of music will be allowed in his bar.
He can't refuse entry into his bar based on race or refuse service based on race or seating or priceing based on race.But he can refuse to have spanish music in his place.
If he let (non spanish) patrons sing spanish songs but wouldn't let (spanish) patrons sing spanish songs or not let (spanish) patrons sing at all, then the guy is a biggot and should be shut down and prosecuted to the full extent of the law.
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lordairgtar
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Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 2:25 pm |
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But it's OK for a white guy to sing La Bamba, I'll bet. That is a Spanish song. Or how about some of the Freddie Fender hits, or ABBAs Fernando. Clearly there is a double standard here. Babs, if you have any of those songs in your regular library, and they get sung with no complaint, your bastender hasn't a leg to stand on.
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SCORPION
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Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 2:29 pm |
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Re Invention @ Wed Sep 17, 2008 4:54 pm wrote: SCORPION @ Wed Sep 17, 2008 3:47 am wrote: Quote: Which was one of the points I was trying to make an owner has the right to decide how the business is going to conduct itself,if the owner doesn't want to hear cussing the owner has that right.If he dosen't want to hear japenese,russian,french,spanish ect.ect. karaoke he dosen't have to.
Um, yes he does. You seem to be missing the point that we're making, which is that that kind of stuff is discrimination, and the owner of a bar has no right to tell people what language they can speak in. IT IS ILLEGAL TO DO THAT. There is a huge difference between not allowing profanity and not allowing somebody to speak in a foreign language. [/quote
The owner didn't say they couldn't speak spanish in his bar he said he didn't want spanish music in his bar.
You are right, he can't tell people what language to speak but he can refuse to offer karaoke of different languages not native to his own.
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SCORPION
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Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 3:06 pm |
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lordairgtar @ Wed Sep 17, 2008 5:08 pm wrote: SCORPION @ Tue Sep 16, 2008 2:36 am wrote:
No differnt than a venue that has no swearing,don't we have the freedom of speech.
Mmmmm, not quite the same. Clearly the bar owner is a jerkwad for giving Babs the job of dealing with music he didn't care to allow. And yes he IS a bigot, he told her he didn't want his bar to become a "Mexican bar". In reference to freedom of speech, that does not refer to swearing, although the baser of us may think so. In a private business, "freedom of speech" has no sway, as the owner may ask you to not curse. That would be his right. To deny a patron the chance to enjoy his ethnic music, just because of his ethnicity in a musical setting where he picks his songs may be illegal. I didn't make this clear enough,my mistake.
Yes if your in a public place people have the right not to have to listen to profanity coming from an individual or group.
The profanity that I was speaking of is in published music like crazy bitxx or I wanna f u like an animal or Korn-I did it all for the nookie, which if I remember right dosen't have any "profanity" in it but is obsene. An owner has a right to refuse this type of music just as any other type of music the owner feels dosen't fit in his/her bar.
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ggardein
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Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 4:38 pm |
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OK, I'm getting brave here...  ....no one can make you have Spanish songs, or any particular songs for that matter. No one can make you have a cdg player to play their disk. "Owner's a jerk", but if you left your Spanish songs at home, no one is going to sue you.....I like to sing a few Spanish songs myself....maybe I should bring my lawyer the next time I go out..... 
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jreynolds
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Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 11:14 pm |
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AGREED- bar owner is a jerk and a bigot.
-but has the right to deny service to anyone. Unfortunately it's his business and reputation. It can indirectly mess up a kjs rep but there's not much recourse.
-should not have treated another culture with disrespect- just business stupidity
-but may have envisioned hearing many spanish songs performed and thought it might be a turn off for the mostly english-speaking patrons.
sure most americans welcome foreign language singers with support and open arms for the 1st two songs...but....
IF A FOREIGN-SINGING GROUP TAKES OVER a place and dominates the show with a foreign language weekly, then the ENTIRE english-singing Bar will eventually rebel, as will the host. You're crazy if ya think there won't be a fallout.
This wasn't the case with Babs, and i agreed she handled it well.
ESPECIALLY to treat a very decent and nice group of patrons and singers who were supporting other singers badly was a big blunder for the bar owner.
I was asked by my bar owners to remove the japanese and french songs i have. We had returning crowds from the college come down to sing multiple foreign language songs. They did not order much food or drinks, tip the servers, were very rude and demanding, and caused many patrons to leave this mainly english speaking establishment because no one wanted to hear another foreign language AMPLIFIED over a speaker system- gets annoying if ya can't understand or follow along AFTER the 3rd song!
Business has doubled if not tripled since then. I do keep a few very select french and japanese songs still listed in my book, but not enough where it would bring groups of people out specifically for those songs.
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Re Invention
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Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 11:51 pm |
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jreynolds @ Wed Sep 17, 2008 11:14 pm wrote: IF A FOREIGN-SINGING GROUP TAKES OVER a place and dominates the show with a foreign language weekly, then the ENTIRE english-singing Bar will eventually rebel, as will the host. You're crazy if ya think there won't be a fallout.
Well hell, then they better not let a gay guy get up there and sing a showtune, or it might turn into a gay bar and everyone will rebel. They better not let a biker dude get up there and sing "Born to Be Wild" or it might turn into a biker bar and everyone will rebel. They better not let a black guy get up there and do "Baby Got Back" or it might turn into Da Club and everyone will rebel.
It is beyond any reasonable stretch of logic to think that someone signing an occasional song in Spanish is going to result in a foreign signing group taking over the place. The whole point of karaoke is that people have a wide variety of types of music to choose from and they get to get up and sing something they enjoy. And in that regard, Spanish music is absolutely no different than country music or rap music or showtunes or standards or boyband pop. To treat it like it is is racism in it's purest form. And trust me, I'm not one to use that word very often, I think about 99% of what passes for racism these days is a joke. But in this case, it's quite apt.
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Re Invention
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Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 12:00 am |
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SCORPION @ Wed Sep 17, 2008 3:06 pm wrote: lordairgtar @ Wed Sep 17, 2008 5:08 pm wrote: SCORPION @ Tue Sep 16, 2008 2:36 am wrote:
No differnt than a venue that has no swearing,don't we have the freedom of speech.
Mmmmm, not quite the same. Clearly the bar owner is a jerkwad for giving Babs the job of dealing with music he didn't care to allow. And yes he IS a bigot, he told her he didn't want his bar to become a "Mexican bar". In reference to freedom of speech, that does not refer to swearing, although the baser of us may think so. In a private business, "freedom of speech" has no sway, as the owner may ask you to not curse. That would be his right. To deny a patron the chance to enjoy his ethnic music, just because of his ethnicity in a musical setting where he picks his songs may be illegal. I didn't make this clear enough,my mistake. Yes if your in a public place people have the right not to have to listen to profanity coming from an individual or group. The profanity that I was speaking of is in published music like crazy bitxx or I wanna f u like an animal or Korn-I did it all for the nookie, which if I remember right dosen't have any "profanity" in it but is obsene. An owner has a right to refuse this type of music just as any other type of music the owner feels dosen't fit in his/her bar. Why do you keep ignoring the most important fact in all of this? It was mentioned in the post you just replied to, and you just glossed right over it.
The owner isn't trying to keep a type of music out of his bar, he's trying to keep Mexican people out of his bar:
"He takes me aside and tells me the same story. I told him it is his bar and if he has a problem with the patrons he should ask them to leave, not to put it on me. That from now on if for any reason he doesn't want someone to sing he has to tell them. Then he says I just don't want my bar turning into a Mexican Bar. Aha ! The truth comes out. "
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SCORPION
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Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 12:28 am |
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Re Invention @ Thu Sep 18, 2008 3:00 am wrote: SCORPION @ Wed Sep 17, 2008 3:06 pm wrote: lordairgtar @ Wed Sep 17, 2008 5:08 pm wrote: SCORPION @ Tue Sep 16, 2008 2:36 am wrote:
No differnt than a venue that has no swearing,don't we have the freedom of speech.
Mmmmm, not quite the same. Clearly the bar owner is a jerkwad for giving Babs the job of dealing with music he didn't care to allow. And yes he IS a bigot, he told her he didn't want his bar to become a "Mexican bar". In reference to freedom of speech, that does not refer to swearing, although the baser of us may think so. In a private business, "freedom of speech" has no sway, as the owner may ask you to not curse. That would be his right. To deny a patron the chance to enjoy his ethnic music, just because of his ethnicity in a musical setting where he picks his songs may be illegal. I didn't make this clear enough,my mistake. Yes if your in a public place people have the right not to have to listen to profanity coming from an individual or group. The profanity that I was speaking of is in published music like crazy bitxx or I wanna f u like an animal or Korn-I did it all for the nookie, which if I remember right dosen't have any "profanity" in it but is obsene. An owner has a right to refuse this type of music just as any other type of music the owner feels dosen't fit in his/her bar. Why do you keep ignoring the most important fact in all of this? It was mentioned in the post you just replied to, and you just glossed right over it. The owner isn't trying to keep a type of music out of his bar, he's trying to keep Mexican people out of his bar: "He takes me aside and tells me the same story. I told him it is his bar and if he has a problem with the patrons he should ask them to leave, not to put it on me. That from now on if for any reason he doesn't want someone to sing he has to tell them. Then he says I just don't want my bar turning into a Mexican Bar. Aha ! The truth comes out. " 1 Did he refuse to let them in his bar.-No -That would have been racist.
2 Did he refuse to serve them drinks or food -no That would have been racist.
3 did he refuse them karaoke-no-that would have been racist.
He did however refuse to have spanish karaoke in his bar.Which is his choice.
Him saying "I just don't want my bar turning into a Mexican bar" is also his choice.
If he didn't want country music in his place or Rock or metal or whatever, that is his choice not to offer it.
Again,I will agree that the guy is a putz.
1 The timeing of that choice was incorect.
2 Putting babs in the middle of it, also incorect.(he needs to grow a pair)
Hey just thought of this, (did a fill in) acoustic gig at a mexican resturant this summer with my buddy nelson, they had stipulations of what was to be played and what wasn't to be played and even had to run a few things by them for approval.I never thought of that being racist just that they were creating the atmosphere that they wanted.Again their business their choice.
By the way the had the 2nd best burrito I've ever had.
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jreynolds
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Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 1:04 am |
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Re Invention @ Wed Sep 17, 2008 11:51 pm wrote: jreynolds @ Wed Sep 17, 2008 11:14 pm wrote: IF A FOREIGN-SINGING GROUP TAKES OVER a place and dominates the show with a foreign language weekly, then the ENTIRE english-singing Bar will eventually rebel, as will the host. You're crazy if ya think there won't be a fallout.
Well hell, then they better not let a gay guy get up there and sing a showtune, or it might turn into a gay bar and everyone will rebel. They better not let a biker dude get up there and sing "Born to Be Wild" or it might turn into a biker bar and everyone will rebel. They better not let a black guy get up there and do "Baby Got Back" or it might turn into Da Club and everyone will rebel. It is beyond any reasonable stretch of logic to think that someone signing an occasional song in Spanish is going to result in a foreign signing group taking over the place. The whole point of karaoke is that people have a wide variety of types of music to choose from and they get to get up and sing something they enjoy. And in that regard, Spanish music is absolutely no different than country music or rap music or showtunes or standards or boyband pop. To treat it like it is is racism in it's purest form. And trust me, I'm not one to use that word very often, I think about 99% of what passes for racism these days is a joke. But in this case, it's quite apt. That would be OCCASIONAL versus DOMINATING- completely different. UNLESS you have personally witnessed a group of customers dominating a karaoke show with a language other than english in a mostly english speaking venue, then some might not know what a complete turn-off it is for the rest of the customers, beyond the 2nd or 3rd song.
Of course ANY genre on music that is OVERDONE, overacted, obscene, annoying or offensive to the general public will turn people away. TOO many gangsta rap tunes at my place and the crowds start to leave. Too many sappy songs in a row and the young kids exit, too many hawaiian songs and the tourists leave, and too many japanese songs and I want to leave!
Occasional is fine- variety is great. Dominating changes the landscape for worse.
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DangerousDanKaraoke
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Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 3:54 am |
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Re Invention @ Thu Sep 18, 2008 12:00 am wrote: Then he says I just don't want my bar turning into a Mexican Bar. Aha ! The truth comes out. " Let me be a devil's advocate for a second. Certainly the owner can't legally ban Mexicans from his bar. But he IS entitled not to make it "attractive" for them to be there by telling the KJ whom HE pays what kind of songs will be sung in HIS bar.
I don't see that as any different than some club owners telling their DJs not to play hip hop because it often attracts a "thug" element.
Bottom line, his bar, his rules. Granted he sounds like an idiot for making a scene in the middle of your show. How he should have approached it was talking to you either before or after your show and let you know he no longer wanted to make Spanish karaoke available at his establishment and the books you use there should remove those titles.
Then the next time the Mexicans came in asking for their Spanish songs, you could have very matter-of-factly said, "Oh sorry, I don't have those any more." No need to give a detailed explanation or place blame.
Remember, as hosts we have the ultimate power: WE CAN QUIT! Give the owner your opinion, your advice, or a piece of your mind. But when the day is done it's HIS bar.
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timberlea
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Quote: Bottom line, his bar, his rules.
He wouldn't be able to do this in Canada. The Human Rights Board would be on his a$$ so fast it would make his head spin and cost him a lot of dough. The Human Rights Board here is, in MHO, a dracronian left wing entity, based on some of their decisions. However, in the case of this idiot bar owner I would back them.
We have Japanese, Filipino singers along with French, etc. We have songs in French and Spanish. If someone brought in a disc in any language, we would play it. It's a good thing and people actually enjoy it.
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Ronny D.
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Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 7:13 am |
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Re Invention @ Thu Sep 18, 2008 12:00 am wrote:
Let me be a devil's advocate for a second. Certainly the owner can't legally ban Mexicans from his bar. But he IS entitled not to make it "attractive" for them to be there by telling the KJ whom HE pays what kind of songs will be sung in HIS bar.
I don't see that as any different than some club owners telling their DJs not to play hip hop because it often attracts a "thug" element.
Bottom line, his bar, his rules. Granted he sounds like an idiot for making a scene in the middle of your show.
But when the day is done it's HIS bar.
I happen to agree with these sentiments. I can't remember the last time I held a job where I had the right to tell my employer who foots all the bills and pays my wages, under what terms and or conditions that I was going to work there for him. Generally if I didn't like the conditions that much I would just take my body and services on down the road to the next guy who had more favorable working environment or conditions.
I certainly do not advocate discrimination but the bar owner has the absolute right to determine for himself what kind of music and clientèle he wants for his establishment. It's his place of business and his dime and if as a customer or even as a KJ you don't like the way the owner is running their own business well there is more than one bar that we can choose to give our business and or make ones services available to. That's the American spirit and way to conduct ourselves IMO and not invite more interference from the nanny state type of folks. That's my two-cents worth.
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mrdelicious2
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Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 8:26 am |
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Dangerousdan....Again, I agree!
You don't have to like it, if it becomes too demanding on what they try to control. Move on down the road!
MrD
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Babs
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Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 8:51 am |
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Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2005 11:37 am
Posts: 7979
Location: Suburbs
Been Liked: 0 time
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I think I can agree with both of you.
I think this bar owner could be sued if this actually went to court on this particular incident because he told to many people he didn't want them singing Spanish songs because he didn't want his bar turning into a Mexican bar and was trying to get them to leave. It is sort of like saying sit in the back of the bus because we don't want you.
On the other hand if he would have just told me ahead of time not to put out the Spanish book and not single anyone out it would have been fine.
I think we all agree on the fact the owner was wrong in how he handled this that is the most important factor here.
I have La Bamba and Felix Navidad in my main books. Maybe a few others. I don't think that will be a problem. But from now on the Spanish Book stays in the cabinet. I've only used that Spanish book maybe twice in a year any way that is why it isn't in the main book. The funny thing is that isn't going to keep Mexican people out of the bar any way and that's okay with me.
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