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New singers, in my system go to the bottom, because if the rotation is light, the wait is not long, so no big deal. If it's heavy, then I tell them there's a wait and perhaps next time they should come earlier. I have customers who come in early in order to get to sing a little more and I want to reward them for it.
I'm not going to penalize my customers for coming early by bumping new singers in.
In my bar, if I did that, the people who have been there all night would never get a chance to sing again as oftentimes my rotation can get close to 30.
I had a singer come in later one night, when my rotation was quite heavy. I told her there was a wait and even gave her an approximate time frame. Within 10 minutes she was up in my face telling me I skipped her. I reiterated that no, I hadn't skipped her, and that there is a long wait and that there were others that came in before her and they all have to wait their turn too.
She went to the bar owner telling him I wasn't letting her sing, etc, etc. You guys all know the speil they spew when they whine about not singing soon enough.
Anyways, I told the bar owner that under NO circumstances was she getting up early to sing. Period. I told her if she kept it up I could just remove her altogether and she wouldn't sing at all.
If she wanted to cry and scream, well then he (the bar owner) could listen to it, because I wasn't interested in listening to it, and it wasn't going to change the rotation.
If he pushed it and tried to force me to "squeeze" her in, I would have packed it up right then and there and he knew it. With a bar full of people he wasn't about to let THAT happen. At least he knows what side of the bread is buttered.
BTW, this was a girl who came in for the first time ever, after holding my show twice weekly for the last 6 months. I've NEVER seen her before.
I later spoke with the bartender and she told me that this woman pulls this crap at the other karaoke bar down the street on a regular basis and they give in and get her up early.
They've trained her to be a hag to get her way. She learned the hard way that in my show, that garbage won't wash.
She hasn't been back since, and amazingly, I'm OK with that.
I won't change my rotation for anyone. EVER.
My rotation is fair and I keep it that way.

No worse than someone who buys $500 worth of raffle tickets & don't receive anything to the 1 person who bought 1 ticket & only because it was to donate to the cause.

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The only way to get around that completely is to make sure everyone gets a prize of some sort.
But seriously, we are not in kindergarten anymore!
Reality is, you get a ticket or even twenty. You might not win.
That's why it's a raffle. Not enough prizes to go around so not everyone wins.
Those that complain I would send home to mommy.

Because the more tickets you have, the more your odds of winning go up.
It's certainly not guaranteed that you will win, but you certainly stand a better chance if you have 5 tickets rather than one.
Oh, and what about singing?
Isn't that why they come out for in the first place?
Show up early, sing more.
Isn't that the whole point?

In reference to rotations,
When I first started as a kj 18 years ago, it was fun and singers were very polite and patient at the shows.
There were times were you sang two songs at the most in a 5 hour show but when you did sing, it was wildly appreciated.
Nowadays, singers seemed to be coming aggressively impatient, no matter the circumstance.
The bottomline is, you can't simply please everyone everytime but I press the "what Lonnie" says button, when he said, "..run the show you run normally..and explain it constantly...".
There are several ways to run a correct rotation, depending on what the night is going to look like.
Examples:
1) If your show starts off slow early, offer a two in row slot for those who sing up a half hour when the show starts, this allows the faithfully ontime customers to be rewarded.
2) If your show is normally busy, then start your first rotation for those who get their slips in within the first hour, this would be your first rotation and new singers are inserted when an opening is available.
3) Time stamp every song request, when they hand it to you, not when they first came in!
( I recently was lambasted by a customer who came in at 8pm but didn't decide to put a slip in until 9:54pm and wanted to sing before anyone who came in later)
4) Here's another way which should be done is to put the request slips after the singer who is singing currently onstage, this eliminates anyone who complains that someone is singing before them who came in later.
This is NOT popular with new singers but supports those who get there early and saty late, the core customer base but new singers say that you play favorites.

I keep all my song slips in the open, I time stamp every slip when I get it,(in front of them).
I call out a rotation of at least three singers in advance since time is so important!
I explain that the average song is 3 minutes each but with the transfer of each singers getting on and off the mic, it's more or less 4 minutes average.
So we do the math:

60 minutes in an hour, divided by 4 minutes average song, equals 15 singers/songs per hour, multiply it by a 4 hour show, equals 60 singer/songs !

That's why I discredit anyone who says they got over a hundred singers in a 4 hour show........There's not that many 2 minute songs.......

Hmmm,....condensed song times...a two minute "Stairway to Heaven"...

As far as a raffle for singers, I too have done this before to encourage attendance at a new show.
Pro's:
1-Singers, good and not so good, wins a contest.
2-Attendance grows along with word of mouth
3-Singers get in early and stay later
Con's:
1-People tend to try to cheat the system
a)Everyone trys to put up hundreds of requests at a time & expects them to be counted as a raffle.
b)Duets are exagerrated, I tell them it goes under one name or the other and if that slip was picked, they both have to share the prize.
c)Customer complaints go up due to everyone wants to circumvent the rules.
d)People will put up a song and totally act like a fool simply to enter the contest, this causes out of control stupidity and a puts another blemish to karaoke singers.
e)You may lose some regulars and for those who try to cheat the system will do anything to annoy you and your customers by complaining.

Although it seems like there are more cons than negatives, it can be done effectively, especially when you know the variables.

I applaud the original poster in trying to bolster his show, my hats to you and others who respect the business we call our profession.

Respectfully
Rodney

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Karaoke is supposed to be fun, if it isn't, then it's NOT KARAOKE.......

Your problem isn't the rotation, it's enforcement. As agreed upon when I'm hired- The owner owns and runs the bar, I own and run my show. I tell the owner upon hire that if his/her mother came in, or MY mother came in, they WAIT THEIR TURN IN THE ROTATION. Period. One song at a time, ok to hand me your next one when you come up and sing.

Everyone tells me the owner is their friend, or they have to leave in 5 minutes (they never do), or all those people over there are waiting to hear me sing, or how much would it cost to bump me...

No bumps, no changes, and my regulars love me for it. They also know when they are up because they follow the same person in each rotation ( excepting #1 of course..)

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Raffles?? Prizes???? Rotation Issues??? Whats next boys and girls 100.00 bribes??? Oh I'm sorry wrong thread. my bad

I LOVE this one. When the owner is there, and she knows my policy as there have been occasions when I couldn't get her up, I tell them "the friends" well I tell you what she's over there, if she tells me otherwise, then i'll get you up.........to DATE she has never said anything, 15 years at the same bar 7 nights!

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Bump me up in rotation ploy number 94 - I know the owner.

Nice try, but it don't fly

If your stuck with an owner who interfers with your rotation and you don't want to give up the gig I'd tell the owner from now on every complainer I get I'll have come to you and you can figure out where in the rotation to put them. Because if I don't run a fair rotation and give even one person special treatment 10 more will complain and I don't want to deal with them.

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Purely because the promotion suggests that by turning up early you will have some form of benefit over late commers. People will assume this means preference, it doesn't it just means more time.

What he is doing is fair, but the perception could be distorted.

tell them the owner waits in rotation JUST like everyone else! PFttt!

By getting there earlier benifits you by getting more chances to sing, thus more raffle ticket - more chances to win.

OF COURSE, the whole entire purpose of ANY contest or game is to get people in as early as possible & keep them in the seats. Which is why it's worded exactly like it is. Doesn't mean any kind of favortism, just the earlier you get there, the better chances you'll have to win because you get to sing more.
UNLESS the rotation is so huge from the get go that everyone only gets 1 song in anyway - but this is a rare event.

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If I get to a show right when it starts at 9:00 and there are already 15 people in the rotation when I walk in the door; am I considered a new singer and do I get slipped in within 4 or 5 singers or do I become singer number 16?

If I become singer number 16(which I happen to think is fair), then why does a singer who comes in later in the evening not have to wait for an entire rotation to sing just like I had to wait?

As far as putting new singers at the end of a rotation; I have no idea how that can be fair unless they all come in when the 1st singer in the rotation is singing.

If there are 15 singers in the rotation and singer number 1 is singing when I walk in the door; I don't get to sing for an hour based on the 4 minutes per song average that seems to be the norm.

If I happen to be lucky enough to walk in while singer number 14 is singing; I'll be singing in under 10 minutes while singers 1 through 13 get pushed back an extra 4 minutes.

If 15 new singers walk in while singer #14 is singing; every singer from number 1 to number 13 has now just gotten pushed back an hour while the people who just walked in get bumped up practically to the front. It's a little late in the evening and singers 1 to 13 thought they were going to get to sing again so they stuck around waiting for their last song of the night but now some of them won't get to sing because the "new singers" have to get special treatment because they DIDN'T get to the show ON TIME.

In my opinion, those 15 new singers should be placed between singer #13 and #14 in the next rotation. I feel that a new singer should have to listen to every singer in the bar before they get to sing. If Mary gets to the bar early and John gets to the bar late; John should have to hear Mary sing and all of the other Mary's as well before John gets to sing a song. It's only fair. Everyone should wait a full rotation before they get to sing.

If the guy who walks in at starting time can wait a full rotation before he gets to sing because a bunch of people are signed up ahead of him; so can the people who show up later in the evening. Cater to the early folks before you cater to the last minute people who rarely spend any money there anyhow.

I'd rather have a bunch of happy customers show up early and stay all night than have a few happy last minute people and a bunch of pissed off ex-customers who now go to some other show that runs a fair rotation. The late comers aren't going to start coming early to replace your ex-loyal followers. They're going to continue coming at the last minute because you kiss their butts just for walking in the door. they don't want to SUPPORT your show. They just want to come in late and take over the rotation because they haven't sung yet. Fair is fair and EVERYONE should have to wait for their turn and everyone should have to wait a full rotation whether it is their first song or their 5th.

It sounds like Whiney Guy needs to go out and find himself a nice ticket raffle to enter where he can buy all the tickets he wants. At karaoke, shoulnt it be about getting to enjoy singing, and if ya win some cash in a raffle , it's a bonus?

Since the show is just starting, everyone in the rotation is a new singer so you will be #16.



Because as part of my job I am trying to please everyone - including late comers. As long as the customers know the policy, then there is no problem. No one will ever sing twice before anyone else & everyone get a chance to sing at least 1.



So describe a new singer. Someone who gets there late & puts up a song, or someone who has been there from the start & decides to get the courage to sing? Either situation is a new singer.



I will try to work a new singer in for their first song a little sooner - depending on if there are other new singers being worked in it could be as little as 20 minutes. After that it's a full rotation wait.


Again depending on new singers already being worked in, it will still be approx 20 minutes & worked in about 4-5 songs from the current.


All those new singers will get worked into the next round on an old/new/old/new basis. Yes there will still be a wait for all, but now the old singers are working on their 2nd songs.



Chances are those singers would get tired of waiting for their first song & leave, where if they are worked in, they will stay. The rotation gets that long anyway, then it doesn't matter how it's ran, people will get disgruntled. I won't place an entire block of new singers together.



Not all latecomers are bar hoppers. Some get off work late or have sitter issues or ??? I have had latecomers spend more than people that have been there all night sipping on 1 or 2 drinks. The latecomers tend to want to get a little more tanked & will drink the high $$ shots - JagerBombs are the drink of choice for most & sometimes each will get anywhere from 4-5 @ $8 per!



But the latecomers do support the show, they just support it late. I have another group that gets off work & show up faithfully every night @ 11 PM.
But as long as a rotation is consistant & not varied from, then the customers will adjust & if not then they can find another place that will cater more to their liking.

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Let's put it this way, everyone sings in the rotation whether it's 5 or 20 or whatever. The only time your position matters is at the end of the night. If there are five rotations in a night you are guaranteed to sing at least four times, no matter whether your number one or number twenty. The fifth time depends on the amount of time left.

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That was a very good informational post from Lonnie and I have to say that (like most else), I fully agree with 99.9% of it. It fully supports the idea that there is NO hard rotational rules, you do you best job to keep it fair for everyone. That's the best you can do. If I get a new singer/slip handed to me while someone is singing, I will try to make sure the new one gets in before that other singer sings again.....You adjust as necessary. Sometimes you just have to say no, sorry, full, I'll get you up first the next show, etc.....MrD

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One of the advantages of working a relatively small room is that I usually know how long someone has been there. A person who decides to sing that's been there all night will get inserted by me sooner than someone just walking in. Especially if I suspect that the newcomer has been to another bar earlier (and I know my people pretty well by now.)

I think I'd have a tough time KJ'ing with a raffle. If you view rotation as an unbroken circle (which is pretty much the definition of rotation), the fairest rotation would have me inserting a new singer just before the singer currently up. A rotation that's that rigid and non-flexible is not in the best interests of the room really.

Rotation is a constant changing animal. You have people coming and going all night. I never have the same 14 people in a row all night. I may start with twenty singers and end with 4. I may have one new singer come in at one time or 10. Would you want me putting 10 singers at the end of the rotation or rotating new than old every other. You have to do what works for you and your particular venue.

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Well of course you have to have a stopping point in which you no longer take slips from anyone - new or old. It's usually about an hour from close or if the number of slips on the table times 4 equals the aprox time to shutting down. On weeknights it's typically 12 - stopping at 1. On weekends i've quit taking slips as early as 11:30 but is usually 12 on avg. - stopping at 1:30. Once I call no more slips, you may change out your last song, but no more slips get added in at that point.

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