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It took my Wednesday night gig months before it took off. Building a new crowd takes time. I don't think how long it takes really matters. It is how long they'll pay you to stay until it does take off.

If I'm being paid to do a gig and I know I'm doing everything possible to bring in a crowd, that's all I can do. As long as I'm being paid I'll stick with it if there is 2 singers or 100. Maybe this place really will never take off, but from my experience it is just a matter of time. 3 weeks seems to me like a very short time to build a crowd. That means you've only been there 3 times. I don't know any new business that takes off that quickly.

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Just wondering why the no-crowd.
Is the bar restaurant new? Do they not have a built in crowd already? What entertainment have they tried before?

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Babs I think it has more to do with the nature of downtown Seattle on a Sunday night more than anything else. And the fact that would be a tough sell to get singers to go to the time and expense to drive there if they weren't downtown already. But Dan can answer in more detail...

Maybe it's just not going to take off no matter what, but I'd still stay as long as I was being paid. I'm greedy that wya.

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You're right Bill. It is the nature of downtown Seattle on a Sunday night. I don't know many dedicated singers who will drive to downtown on a Sunday night. Saturday is a different story. It's expensive to park and a hotel probably has pricier drinks than a bar or club. If the place is willing to pay Dan to entertain their patrons, great...I wouldn't expect a huge influx of outsiders, though.

Well, which is it? Have you possibly made up a bunch of 1 page flyers to slide under doors on Sunday?

OK, I just realized who you are. From posts on another forum you are supposed to be succesful at this sort of thing. This means that you already KNOW you have to WORK to be good at this.

I state unequivocally that in 18 years, I have never had a failed show ( To me, any show less than a full year at a venue.)

I have worked 4 star restaurants, hotels, biker bars, places in the middle of nowhere, etc...- all of 'em. Hard work and completing commitments is what makes the day.

I also know that on the other forum you basically yalked about being a DJ only. Are you sure you made both the mental and equipment changes neccesary to become a successful Karaoke Host?

Congratulations on the new job. However, you now have some choices to make.

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" Disc based and loving it..."

Joe, as I mentioned the bar is independently owned but is located on the street level of the hotel. Although it's a bar in a hotel, it's not the hotel bar. So putting flyers under the door is something that I can't just do on my own. I did talk at length with the General Manager and the Bar Manager about what THEY could do to promote the show. Actually we signed our contract 2 weeks before I started during which time I did promote the appearance to my other show and on my MySpace.Yes, my "real" profession is marketing. And I know all the things that should be done. I guess my question is...why should it be up to the KJ to jump through all those hoops and put in all that (unpaid) time and effort to promote the show? My feeling is I've already given the venue tools and advice on how to make it happen. They are the ones who are there 7 days a week, all day long.

By the way, this venue has never had entertainment on a Sunday night before. And as has been confirmed by a couple of others in this thread, it's nearly impossible to attract people from outside the area to come downtown and pay $6 to park to sing karaoke, especially on a Sunday night.My contract "commits" me to 4 weeks with an option to continue for the full 13 weeks. Let me add that at 4 weeks, the contract is cancelable by either party. My "hard work" is the performance I give. I'm sure if I wasn't a good host, even the few people who are in the place wouldn't stay as long as they do.I've been hosting karaoke as an add-on to my DJ business for probably 10 years and worked as a bar KJ for about 5 years. I don't know that "mentally" there's any difference - whether people want to sing or dance (or just watch others singing and dancing) they want to have FUN! They want to be in an exciting atmosphere. And that means a CROWD of people. I can attest that having a very small number of guests doesn't lend itself to either singing or dancing in a DJ or KJ situation. At a private party one might be more inclined to stick it out since you were invited to come and probably know others there. In a bar full of strangers? One drink and you can be gone with no worries.

Regarding equipment changes? Yes, I have a separate karaoke console I use for those events with a mixer which lends itself more to multiple mics and vocal effects. Perhaps the only thing I might add would be a singer monitor, but space limitations prohibit that anyway.Bill, I think you called this one correctly. I've completed my "commitment" to this Sunday clunker and have 2 other nights at a hit venue in addition to a F/T day job.

I appreciate everyone's opinions on this...but my curiosity continues in this thread for others who have started a new venue and then maybe found it wasn't all they thought it would be. Did you go balls to the wall to promote it anyway? Did you stay? Did you leave after a week or two?

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You missspelled "anything or anybody".

Sounds like most of what I was going to say has already been posted....

Dan, you say that parking costs $6. Is there anywhere else that the people can park, or is it unsafe to park in the streets in that area, or is it just impossible to park anywhere downtown without using a Lot? You say that the area downtown is pretty empty on a Sunday night. Why is that? Is it just the inconvenience of people going downtown, or is it a bad part of town? Is it a business area that just gets deserted after dark (like the Wall Street area in NY... after about 8 PM, the Wall Street area can become a ghost town in Manhattan)?

What time is your show on Sunday nights? Doesit start at (the standard) 10 PM to 2 AM (that I am accustomed to in NY), or does it start earlier? Maybe you could shoot for a show that starts at 6 or 7 PM instead of later. That might atract more of the Karaoke regulars to come downtown to your show.

Does this bar serve food or just drinks? Are they pricey (since you mention it's a 4-star Hotel, things may be pricey at the Bar (even if it isn't owned by the Hotel))?

Joe, as I mentioned the bar is independently owned but is located on the street level of the hotel. Although it's a bar in a hotel, it's not the hotel bar. So putting flyers under the door is something that I can't just do on my own. I did talk at length with the General Manager and the Bar Manager about what THEY could do to promote the show. Actually we signed our contract 2 weeks before I started during which time I did promote the appearance to my other show and on my MySpace.[quote/]



2) Yes, my "real" profession is marketing. And I know all the things that should be done. I guess my question is...why should it be up to the KJ to jump through all those hoops and put in all that (unpaid) time and effort to promote the show? My feeling is I've already given the venue tools and advice on how to make it happen. They are the ones who are there 7 days a week, all day long.



3) I've been hosting karaoke as an add-on to my DJ business for probably 10 years and worked as a bar KJ for about 5 years. I don't know that "mentally" there's any difference - whether people want to sing or dance (or just watch others singing and dancing) they want to have FUN! full of strangers? One drink and you can be gone with no worries.



4) You are not a quitter. You are a realist.[/quote]Bill, I think you called this one correctly. I've completed my "commitment" to this Sunday clunker and have 2 other nights at a hit venue in addition to a F/T day job.

I appreciate everyone's opinions on this...but my curiosity continues in this thread for others who have started a new venue and then maybe found it wasn't all they thought it would be. Did you go balls to the wall to promote it anyway? Did you stay? Did you leave after a week or two?[/quote]
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1) MySpace? Wonderful. If you aren't a member, you can't access the ad. Try the state karaoke listings. They actually GET results.


2) If your real profession is marketing, the first thing you should know is that you can't depend on others to do YOUR marketing. What THEY will do? So you were hoping to walk in the door and let your presence alone be the big draw? You say that since you are in marketing, you know what should be done. Well, why aren't you doing it?

Why should a Karaoke Host do, as you describe it, "unpaid" promotion? Because we who are in the business PROMOTE our business. Unpaid? Well, not if you are successful. I live in one of the two wealthiest areas ( Bergen County, NJ) in the country . My house ( around 660K ) is paid for, as are my cars. Trust me, it's NOT "unpaid". What you are asking is really: " Why should I work to earn a living?". Well, when you start your new job, try not working at it. See how long you get paid.

This is YOUR marketing, to make money for YOUR business. That's why YOU should do the work. The fact that the venue is doing anything at all is a great plus.


3) I AM glad that you knew enough to have the correct equipment for the job. Ther are a lot of DJs out there that don't know better. Good Job!


4) If you don't put forth YOUR best effort to create a succesful show using ALL the time allotted, then yes, you are a quitter.

I've had some awful starts in places that I truly felt were not going to make it. I stuck it out, and ALL of them did. Even if you are not successful at this venue, you owe it your best effort. Yes, I go balls to the wall EVERY TIME. That's what I'm getting paid for- my BEST EFFORT.

You are in marketing. Well, what good is marketing without a worthwhile product. Complete your commitment, and put every bit of effort forward that you can. Or give up because it's too hard. Up to you.

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

Joe, maybe your ISP blocks MySpace but you do NOT need to be a member to access profiles. I have close to 200 friends linked there. It's also linked via a direct URL from the bar's website. I usually get about 100 hits a week just from there.As I mentioned, I have promoted it via my other show, on MySpace, Craigslist. I gave them artwork for posters and table tents. I am an attraction of the bar. Just as they advertise their beer selection, menu items and other amenities, why should it be up to ME to also get customers for them? They are hiring a karaoke service to offer something extra to their customers. When they add a margarita special, does Cuervo advertise it for them beyond giving them posters and table tents?Nope, that's why I gave the tools to the bar to promote they would now be offering karaoke. Did I mention that we did our deal 2 weeks before the show started so they'd have 2 additional weeks to promote it?But I'm not being hired as a promoter. I'm being hired as a karaoke host. That's the task for which I'm being paid. Although I've gotten thr word out to my available channels, it's ultimately up to the venue to bring customers into the bar. Again, the job for which I was hired and am being paid for is to bring in sound and video gear, my music library and my presence and talent for 4 hours (6 with load-in/out and setup) every week.If they were not ready to make the commitment to promote to existing customers and seek out new customers with this new attraction, they should not have added karaoke.I believe I put on a terrific show. Those who are in the bar stick around all night to participate. But there are only about 20 people. Yes, I am in marketing but that's not what they've hired me to do. They've hired me to bring in a karaoke show and host it. It's certainly a "worthwhile product".

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. I can't drag people off the street into this bar. Cueball, to answer your question there really isn't much on-street parkjng in this area. The drinks are about the price you'd expect to pay in a hotel bar...beer $4+, cocktails $5+. They have a happy hour that starts at 10 pm till close. My show starts at 8 pm; this is what they wanted because they are across the street from a theatre whose show starts at 8. They didn't want me interfering with their pre-show crowd because they're doing fine then. Sunday nights have always been dead for them; they were hoping by offering an added attraction they'd get more people in there. I don't think there's enough traffic or people in that area after 8 pm period.

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I have to agree with Dan on this one.
Karaoke is a form of entertainment hired by the bar.
When a bar hires a band, for instance, it is up to THE BAR to promote the attraction, not the band.
It's no different with Karaoke.
As a host, my job is to entertain (or help others to entertain).
The bar's job is promotion, not mine.
The bar where I currently host wanted me to put posters around town advertising my show there.
I made it clear to him that my job is entertainment, his job is promotion.
I live in another town a half hour away. No way was I going to be spending the gas to drive into that town, spend more on posters, not to mention my time. I have kids that would need child care while I do all that.
When a venue brings in a band from another city, they don't ask the band to do promotion ahead of time. Heck, they're not usually even in town until the week of the said show.
It should be no different with Karaoke.
Just because it's a weekly show doesn't mean the bar owner can slough off his duties to me.

1) Might be my error, but if anyone blocks your ad it's not effective. Third try: List on free public karaoke sites, where people actually LOOK FOR karaoke.


2) See number one. listing on a bunch of ineffective sights is not equal to listing on one effective site.


3) This is what I meant when I asked if you had made the mental conversion neccesary to become a Karaoke Host in a bar venue.

As an event DJ, you went in to entertain a crowd that was preset- a captive audience, if you will. An event is not meant to be a moneymaker for the client. It's a write-off. You are there just to keep people entertained until thay leave, and then you just go to the next event.

NOT SO when working in bar, club, and restaurant venues. I have been a bartender, bouncer, manager, and part owner of these sorts of places. Here's your wake up call: These venues are in business to MAKE money. It IS your job to both bring in new customers and keep those already there drinking and eating longer. You are not just there to fill dead air.

If a venue has the same amount of customers and sales without you as with you, you are causing them a loss. In this business, you earn your pay by MAKING MONEY FOR THE VENUE. So you know, many venues don't promote at all, or only on a very small scale.

A good Karaoke host develops a following, and when starting a new venue, the people will come in and get the ball rolling.

You are supposed to be a money-MAKER for the venue. You can't use the same tactics that you did as an event DJ ( Which I also do).

So that's why it is up to you. If you don't learn how to BRING IN customers, you will be of no worth to public venues.



4) A good host IS a marketer and promoter, as well as a problem solver, mingler, and many other things. There is a hell of a lot more multi-tasking then in DJ work. BTW- If you normally stand behind a facade or hide in a both, break the habit. A good host must be accessible. Your product, in this case, either brings money into the venue, or it's not worthwhile at all.


I know that I have had a rather harsh tone in these posts. Believe it or not, sometimes a kick in the a** can be more helpful than sweet nothings..

If you decide to continue hosting, you MUST realize that quality work in this field is COMPLETELY different than that of event DJing. Quality Karaoke Hosting is NOT a "sideline", but an art and skill unto itself.

I've been at this for years. I am primarily a Karaoke Host, but am also a DJ. I would be the first to admit that my straight DJ skills are good, but not great. However, in my territory, I am considered one of the top hosts around. The only public venues I now work are high end restaurant/hotel bars and rooms- places where karaoke was considered "low brow" at one time. I have changed that image. You can too.

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

myspace and facebook are social networking sites. I applaud him for going there with it.

I can't view them from WORK of course, but home it's no problem!

Agree & disagree. I as a company am not only promoting the bar, I am promoting my company. I want as many people to come out & support my shows, rather than going to a show elsewhere. So I will advertise anywhere & anyhow I can to promote my SHOW, which happens to be at the bar that hired me.
Same when I was playing with bands & all the bands that I know, the goal is to get people out to support the show - not necessarily the club, but usually ends up to the clubs advantage as well - which is the ultimate goal of hiring entertainment in the first place.
Bars are going to hire entertainment based on if they can bring people in, they are not going to hire someone or keep someone that doesn't. Advertising is for MY livlihood, not the bars! I have MySpace, Craiglist when I remember, several karaoke sites, my own webpage, sometimes will build fliers, I try to get email and/or MySpace contacts of anyone that comes in. Then I let the people know where I am playing, why wouldn't I WANT to do this? Sure the bar can run an ad or put out a sign out front, but ultimately the successful show is going to be with people who know the company/host.

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Absolutely agree with you on this, Lonnie. I have always sold my shows based on the fact that, (1) I have an extensive e-mailing list and a lot of loyal followers; (2) I have a very good reputation for sound and selection, and (3) I am adept at creating eye-catching fliers, posters, etc., and will use them. In fact, I have cards that I create for a new show and carry them with me everywhere. I hear someone singing in the grocery store or the gas station, or the hair salon, anywhere... I hand them a card, ask if they've ever done karaoke as they seem to enjoy singing, and extend a personal invitation to join us for a night of singing.

Like Lonnie, I am selling MY show. The great thing is when the bar profits very well from the fact that my show is successful. If my show isn't successful, the bar won't be successful.

I think we can get lazy and expect someone else to sell our show for us. We have to do that ourselves. A lot of establishments are eager to do that with you, a lot aren't. It's great when they are, and will spend money on advertising, beer posters, etc., but that seems to be the exception now and not the rule anymore.

Will just add that when hubby's band is scheduled to do a show someplace, I create posters that I either e-mail and they print out, or I actually print out and mail posters a couple of weeks ahead of time. Band also has a huge mailing list for band gigs, I post links to their website, and I use Craigslist a lot (I see Dangerous Dan's ads on the Seattle-Tacoma events page all the time...)

We're all fighting for now limited entertainment dollars and the more energy we put out on it, the greater the potential for the bull's share of those dollars.

I'm wondering if Dan's reasoning is because he doesn't need this gig. Why go to a lot of extra effort and expense when he can get a gig somewhere else without this problem. Also there maybe the fear that this place is hopeless because of the circumstances, so why put in the effort.

But as for promoting I agree. If you want to be successful people need to know you exist.

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Right Babs - I probably wouldn't have taken that gig on, knowing what downtown Seattle looks like on a Sunday night; however, sometimes we can have unexpected surprises. Sometimes you have to know when to cut your losses, for sure...and it sounds like Dan is going to be a busy boy anyway. (PS: NOthing worse than a room that is empty - someone peers in the door and there is no one there, and they walk away ... horrible feeling)

I wish to thank Lon, Karen, and Babs for your posts. The extra push might help Dan change and add to his promotional plan.

I also agree with Karen regarding the fact that an empty room has a tendency to keep itself empty. That's why we try to bring "starters" to a new venue..

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" Disc based and loving it..."

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