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PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 5:11 pm 
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OK, I'm feeling real good now (no, I'm not bipolar) but I just got a really great compliment on a song from Billy ! He hears significant improvement but said

"Put your clothes on for crying out loud"...HAHAHA


It's difficult for me to hear any improvement, I sing daily A LOT, and I suppose I'm going thru the one year point frustrations, or whatever assuming there is such a thing..LOL

VERY few road musicians got to write their own tickets... and I resigned myself to that years and years ago.. If I'm going to be a musician, and be heard as a musician, I have to reproduce.. look at the percentage who make it as innovators compared to those of us that back them, and cover their material ?

I do have a few fond memories of classical however, like the concert a few horn players, half the percussion section and myself (string bass) got thrown out've the orchestra for a month for breaking into average white bands "Cut the Cake" instead of playing the classical composition :) To this day I can't forget ! Sad thing is, it got lots of applause.. See, that was as close to innovation as I ever got !

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 1:52 am 
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Steven Kaplan @ Wed Sep 17, 2008 8:30 am wrote:
Odie,

Because I want complete honesty. That's why I won't sub in the showcase. In fact I want blatant honesty ! (barring my personality of course) Just on my attempts to sing.


Steven, you didn't get my point or I didn't make myself clear enough. I'm not talking about subbing your songs in SS. Leave your links here in the KS threads (like you normally do) to your recordings on Singsnap. But don't preface them with "I thought my singing sucked!" It plants a less then neutral opinion in people who might want to give an honest critique of their own. Let listeners start out with a clean, neutral slate. Give your own opinion of your singing efforts after others have had a chance to give theirs. This seems like a way to obtain an honest, untainted review.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 7:31 am 
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OK, but wow, this is all so embarassing for me. I want to learn how to sing, but I still have a strong desire to hide behind the "frontman". This singing stuff makes me feel really exposed.

Does this make sense ? I understand most that sing here (those that also grew up in a tough performing arts environment) have been singing a LONG time but has anyone else felt this type embarassment initially ? This is a BIG shift for me in music.. The mindset of "the frontman". Most of my time (during this first year) has been spent looking for ways and means to hide.. Now that I'm not hiding I feel like the ugly duckling at a nudist camp.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 20, 2008 5:56 am 
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I know what you're saying Kappy about the demand to "play it exactly like the original" because I was in that type of environment for a long time- but I also was chomping at the bit to be innovative. The only way I could do that back then- was "gender benders" (or IF could find an alternative recording for them to learn_ cuz they only did covers) I slipped "Sunday Kind of Love" in the middle of a "country" show because i found a Reba version of it(LOL)

But I guess my advice now would be- get out and stay away from situations that restrict your creativity. I encourage creativity in my band members- but they take turns. When I call something like MoonDance and the drummer gives it a unique beat- I'll glance at the bass so he knows to stay pretty close to form( so we avoid a cluster-fu(k train wreck) if ya know what I mean...but I LIKE it when my band is creative- it allows me to stretch vocally- and the audience feels like they are getting something "fresh" every night. We've done Summertime and Over The Rainbow 8-12 times and we've never played it the same way- so my vocals have also been different everytime. Yeah...sometimes it doesn't work in actuality as well as we thought it would in theory...but that;s all part of a live show. Sounds like you has a bad experience with some narrow minded musicians who prided themselves on "recreating" instead of "creating" and I KNOW they are the most touchy regarding their egos about their "talent" But how good of a musician can you be if you never attempt to be BETTER than the original. With all my advanced students- I steer them away from singing singers like Streisand and Celine Dion because they are so distinct ans good- that it's hard to sing as good as-MUCH LESS "better" then them. BUT....that given- when one of my little chicks has the chops and goes there...it's a BEAUTIFUL thing! And though Barbara and Celine would be ticked to hear this- YEAH there have been MANY who sang one of their songs as good or better then them. So I guess what I'm trying to say- is don't limit yourself to only being "as good" as someone else...you need to focus on being as good as YOU cand be- and that means getting out of that cover musician mindframe rut you're stuck in...so get out there and sing some GIRLS! ( wink)

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 20, 2008 6:00 am 
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Steven Kaplan @ Fri Sep 19, 2008 3:31 am wrote:
OK, but wow, this is all so embarassing for me. I want to learn how to sing, but I still have a strong desire to hide behind the "frontman". This singing stuff makes me feel really exposed.

Does this make sense ? I understand most that sing here (those that also grew up in a tough performing arts environment) have been singing a LONG time but has anyone else felt this type embarassment initially ? This is a BIG shift for me in music.. The mindset of "the frontman". Most of my time (during this first year) has been spent looking for ways and means to hide.. Now that I'm not hiding I feel like the ugly duckling at a nudist camp.


Kappy honey I have done gigs at nudist camps, trust me most of them are ugly ducklings...and OMG the naked limbo left absolutely NOTHING to the imagination

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 20, 2008 11:23 pm 
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Quote:
Sounds like you has a bad experience with some narrow minded musicians who prided themselves on "recreating" instead of "creating" and I KNOW they are the most touchy regarding their egos about their "talent" But how good of a musician can you be if you never attempt to be BETTER than the original.


Leslie West is Brutal to work with, a few other equally big names are similarly impossible but not to be challenged, it's their gig, their names.. Doing some session work with MFSB (and the Philly musicians) and some work up in the Toronto area with Liverpool and The Blushing Brides was ALL "Tribute" stuff (about 25-30 years back).. I was quite good at what I did, but floated from band to band, I was pretty much a gypsy, and I got bored, didn't know what I wanted, was stubborn, frequently got replaced, and I started really liking "The Sauce" and other happy substances too :( etc... Problem is MANY were as good and many of course are better. You know how much talent just oozes out've the weirdest places, in any city... There's amazing talent and competition but unlike yourself Paula, I didn't like competition becuase it went from feast to famine and the ride home when replaced suddenly was a LONG one, I took it VERY personally because I was young and full of myself.. Ended up devastated and VERY ill (physicially and mentally) -although the later should be of no suprise to those here that know me..HAHAHA..

I did some session work with a few of the biggest names, and I was content as a member of THEIR band OFTEN just for one or two gigs as stand in, there was NO room for "me" ANYWHERE I played, I am just a follower in music, a backing musician, with that mindset and as an instrumentalist who was playing 10 instruments decently I was also a "stand-in" and backup for bands if a musician became ill heading ALL over the east coast and northern areas within a few days notice.. Plus the local smaller bar gigs and local bands I was a regular with, but I did session work too, and THAT is brutal.. If a cover musician got ill, I learned full sets in a VERY short a time in my genres because my brain just reproduced what I heard quicky, and that's where money was, it's what I did.. Even improv for me fit WITHIN circumscribed boundaries of standard progressions but even when playing jazz I had a TOUGH time being 'lead' in terms of mindset.. I loved sitting in last minute, I LOVED that more than anything, the challenge and being under the gun to learn a shows worth of stuff in a few days on one of several instruments I was sitting in on was the thrill for me..Naturally I belonged to unions in several states at the time, and was freelance too... But given the level of musicianship, I was happy being a backing musician, there was no place for me to go from there.. I wasn't going to strive to be an innovator who toured because I stood lesser of a chance doing ANYTHING like that than just about ANYBODY that plays an instrument, my niche was a reproducing... What I'm finding interesting is as "the lead" or SINGER, I'm TOTALLY LOST, like a fish out've water..My type musicianship is VERY different than Singers who have the "frontman" mentality, or have developed "frontman" mentality, EVERYTHING I trained for taught me "You BETTER not try to upstage the frontman, layback, hang, it's HIS/HER gig. That was my place in music.. A band member, NOTHING more ! except for a few solo lounge piano gigs but naturally I never sang (obviously) and my timbre was the instrument..

In fact BIlly and I were discussing this awhile back... Some instrumentalists ARE in fact satisfied being accompanying artists, it's just their niche, some of us are not comfortable being "in front of" the band... I am, always have been, and always will be the guy that backs you singers... However to round myself off, I DO want to put 100% into trying to learn to become a singer... But as stated repetitiously by me... It's SO different both psychological and all else-wise and the reason I suppose I can't "hear myself" is because when singing I'm letting some of my insides out as opposed to hiding behind the instrument... also, I can't hear myself emulating someone else so "different" sounding to me WOULD entail creativity, and I never planned on being "creative", for some idiotic reason I had two choices... Sing and nail my idols, or forget singing PERIOD...

I'm learning A LOT of new stuff this year... New ways, a different door in music (and it's embarassing for me to call myself a musician when I try to sing, but it's OK to start something new and learn from scratch I suppose, AS LONG as I respect my place among those of you that sing as a brand-spankin new beginner and stay in my place.. Out respect for the art and musicians who are better... and to keep myself sane, and that's what I'm doing

Anyway, as a result of KNOWING I don't like competition, as well as KNOWING how I can get fat and hot-headed and brutally self competitive... I wish for folks like all of you to keep me in my place... As an instrumentalist I do fine... HOWEVER as a learning singer, I feel as though I'm a TOTAL beginner and I have NO CLUE...
Problem with being VERY competitive at a certain level is you get beat up. I don't like getting beat up... There's SO much amazing talent ALL over the place that I decided not being a politician, HATING the game, HATING the business aspects, I better lay low before I end up hating music too.. It's where I was headed QUICKLY..

Yet I respect music.. and have finally given myself permission to be a beginner, not good and a "2" on a scale of 1-10 at something, and I'll tell you, it's pretty relaxing being down here.. when I fall I only get very minor abrasions :) But I haven't fallen once because I've kept things in their proper perspective... meaning, I am striving to learn to sing, I am NOT YET a singer.. The more honest people are with me, all I can do is improve over time.. REgarding creativity in singing, Yep, I CAN do that.. because the harder I try to nail a cover the more "special" or "creative" the result becomes :mrgreen: HAHAHA, AND gender bender works ! Aretha Franklin "Killing me softly" not the Fugee's BLECH, but the 1973 Flack version isn't totally bad... Carpenters works too... So the tip on "gender bender" is a good one... However, I didn't get too many comments on the "Macy Grey" song..LOL..

Regarding being competitive well there's a funny story I can post in the "musicians experiences" thread but in short (or did I miss the boat for that) at 4 and 5 years of age (and somebody who had just started playing the piano) at three my folks started me off on something like a Doc Seuss rendition of Music for babies called "Pencil Play" where I'd color notes and often couches and furniture learning to make clef signs etc... I had to give recitals in front of judges semi-annually in Newark NJ for the NJ music federation as a kid member starting around 4 years of age (i think) and I was SO VERY sensitive to criticism by time I was 6, and got so spoiled by "Superior" rating certificates that I'd often throw myself on the floor screaming when I just got a "Very good" as I got older.. I'd throw tantrums in the room, start kicking the piano and my mom had to drag me out've the room (at around 6 years of age when they started becoming more critical of musical aspects and stopped treating us as babies). I HATED not hanging onto my "10" rank too... LOL, I'd like to think I've grown a LITTLE since those preschool days.. Praise and fluff isn't good for some of us that wish to keep it real... But in keeping it real fluff of course is entirely useless in a performing art however HONEST praise is always a perk !.. But ALL should be deserved IMHO.. Dang, did I hate those judges when they started getting tough on me...The nerve on them not constantly giving me
Superior rating certificates... What I didn't understand at the time, is that the compositions and performance material was getting increasingly more demanding too, and I sucked at Bach and counterpoint stuff...

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 20, 2008 11:48 pm 
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I suppose what I'm wondering is, at my age, if my comfort is being "backing" musician, how tough will it be to cop "singer" psychological attitude ? Since I started singing in here, I started having those dreams again about being on stage and highly visible although once on stage I realize there's a big problem.. I forgot to put pants on :( I'll tell you what's worse... The dreams where I'm sitting on a toilet and all of a sudden the bathroom is a big arena stage... Isn't it weird that just singing for people has made me feel this exposed ? LOL

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Kappy honey I have done gigs at nudist camps, trust me most of them are ugly ducklings...and OMG the naked limbo left absolutely NOTHING to the imagination


See, Nudist camps are easy as long as I keep my mouth closed and don't expose my vocal chords. I'll get thrown out've the camp for vulgarity and indecent exposure

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 8:52 am 
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I think I've finally realized what your main problem is with your deemed "lack of progress" Kappy. How can you ever expect to improve if you don't allow yourself one single positive thought regarding your abilities and how far you've progressed since you started? Like Paula stated (and others {ahem} before), you absolutely, unequivocally, must....

BELIEVE IN YOURSELF!!!

period :hug:

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 9:20 pm 
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Thanks Cat... I have an easier time with this elevator genre... It's simple to do, and I don't think about it because it brings me back to 1973-1974 and I relive the times, places, etc when I heard it being done... So it's sortuh like I "trip"

http://www.singsnap.com/snap/watchandli ... /b511c01d9


What concerns me about "believing in myself" is balancing confidence while keeping perspective regarding where I stand, NOT allowing myself to get an attitude of arrogance.. I might be wrong, but I think as long as I respect those better than myself, and allow myself to creep along I'm more receptive to others openess which is the ONLY way I can learn.. My biggest fear is becoming obstinate and confident in an ability I don't have.. You are likely VERY correct regarding what you are telling me.. But it this takes a long time, at what point should a peron be "confident" ? Even being as I am now I TRY very hard and won't give up, but with confidence comes ego, doesn't it ? I think that might be what really does me in... I might be VERY wrong, I don't know.. I'm too dependant on other peoples ears.. I honestly can't tell... so to me, I hear no progress... but I try so often and so frequently I probably wouldn't be able to gage it... That's why honesty and recitals in music are pretty important... as is TOTAL honesty IMHO.... If I can KNOW folks are leveling with me and I'm currently a 2 or a 3... In a year if I'm a 5 that would be FABULOUS ! I'm concerned about losing perspective as to where I am in this area I'm learning...I get frustrated, granted... But I'm not going to quit, I like trying to sing too much... So I don't know Cathy, I guess I'm going thru the normal phases ? Dunno..

I think the fact that I realized at the onset IF I can ever learn to partially sing, that'll be a good thing (which I haven't forgotten) means I might be making progress but never realized time is all this might take... Now I'm hearing some of the excellent singers in here have been singing for at least 15-20 years... Not so sure this is the time for confidence yet... Maybe something will click, and I'll be able to hear myself with some objectivity. THere are songs every-so-often I think I did a decent job on, and I hear myself as me singing... Sort've like Paula stated regarding such songs being the LESS done songs by other singers (especially male singers).. IE... The song I posted in here. It's not commonly heard so I don't feel as though I rank at the bottom when I attempt an obscure song (for 2008).

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