Karaoke Forums

On a different DJ forum there is a larger variety of specific posting categories offered. Several of those categories pertain to business considerations, such as marketing. This forum, as wonderful as it is, has had few "serious" discussions, since I joined two years ago, related to the business aspects of running a karaoke company.

And one thing, in particular, that gets the "hair standing on the back of my neck" are discussions about how dumb bar owners are. While I steadfastly believe, based upon many years of related experience, that most businesses make money in spite of themselves, I also believe that the average business owner is a bit more sophisticated in business matters than the average KJ!

Meanwhile, IMHO, too many KJ's think that the owner is their "bud" or a "partner on a two-way street". Usually, that's not the reality of the owner's thinking. Such thinking on the part of a KJ allows for cutting the owner "too much slack". I don't disagree that offering a special price for a limited time to prove to an owner the financial worth of your efforts is good business. I would recommend, though, that you state your intentions regarding fees, in writing, at the get-go. If nothing else, the owner can't come back later and claim that the initial price is, in fact, your regular fee.

At the risk of repeating myself in matters that I have already pointed out over the last two years:
- Not every "questionable" karaoke library is owned by an under-performing host. There are hosts using "questonable" libraries nowadays who have been around for years and started with discs.
- Not every KJ who offers a lower price has a sub-standard show (as to library, equipment, skills set)!
- Starting out in a KJ business with the "best" equipment that you can afford may not be the best business model. How much money are your budgeting for marketing and advertising? How much for "unknowns"? What if you can't find a regular "gig", or you don't work with any regularity? Are you prepared to "eat" your equipment investment if you fail. I surely could have spent more than I did when I purchased my first equipment! I just wasn't excited about the prospect of losing more money than what I had budgeted for if I had failed. And not everyone can have the best system, particularly at the very first job they do. Of course, some of you will look at this as a type of "the chicken or the egg comes first" question - you can't do well without expensive equipment, you might say. I look at it purely economically, without emotion - I don't need the best sound as a BRAND NEW KJ. And I know that what did select for a sound system has worked for me superbly where I've had to use it.

Before I committed to getting involved with the KJ/DJ business, I "studied" the KJ's in the area to determine what they do and how they do it, as well as to determine what I would like to emulate and what I would like to avoid doing. Notably, even the "successful" shows differ significantly: geographic locations differ, venues differ, fees differ, marketing differs, crowds differ, equipment differ, libraries differ, playlists differ, "quality" of singers differ, rotation policies differ!

And while one can never discount luck in running any business, it is hard to succed if you don't manage your efforts as a serious businesses. Doing so will open up the possibility for luck to grab hold. I often have found that success is based upon some "X-factor", that often goes unnoticed (which may or not be due to luck). And some businesses, admittingly, have incorporated an "X-factor" without even realizing that such an ingredient has come into play. And often, in dealng with the public, the "X-factor" is nothing more than personality - a characteristic that can't be learned or acquired. In previous threads, I've referred to a KJ in my area who has the best audio system along with a massive computerized libray. While he's been doing gigs regularly for the last 15 years, he has no "following". Why? He's not very likeable, and people talk openly about that! So, he's never at one place very long.

I realized, firstly, that what somebody else does successfully would not necessarily work for me. I also considered what, if any, "X-factor(s)" I might possess. Lastly, I thought about what I might be able to do differently that might be appealing and possibly distinguish my show from "all the other" shows! Since, clearly, there is no template, no formula that anyone can recommend for a new KJ to follow that will assure success, you have to develop your own model! For example, part of my model has always included my desire NOT to sing during my show (except for the first and, perhaps, the last song), part of my model includes the occasional magic trick. My model most definitely incudes re-evaluating every six months what my competition and I are doing and what can/should be changed and/or improved.

At one successful show in my area, at least 50% of those in attendance are "seniors". 90% of the songs that are sung are slow and many are quite old. There's no bumper music in use, and mis-cuing of songs by the host is quite common. Meanwhile, the host of this particular show works six days a week and will look me in the eye as she tells me her show is the best in the area! I, except as favor to her, would never want to host a show like that!

So, like all else in life, IT'S IN THE EYE OF THE BEHOLDER. Now all you have to do is find out who you are "beholding to" and what they want!

I find a lot of what you say to be true. As far as catagories offered here, what would you suggest should be offered here? I am a newbie here but I kinda like this place.

I would also say that a new KJ needs "good" sound to compete. IMO there is nothing worse than going to Karaoke and having poor sound. Singers need something to come back to. This might be different if your the only place in town but if you have competition, you need good sound. Our first karaoke set-up that we bought had poor sound and I would have been embarrassed to try and get a gig with it. We ended up getting advise from these forums and have great sound now.

Of course, I don't think very many new KJ's will ever start out with the best that money can buy --and I agree, they shouldn't-- but they should not have low quality equipment either.

I already had a decent PA because I have been a gigging musician since I was a kid. However, I started out with only around 100 discs. It was ok to get me through the first gig as it was just helping out a pub who got let down, they knew I wasn't actually a KJ. But since that night I do it regularly now. My song collection is over 6,000 and STILL I get a request for a song I don't have at least every other gig.
I don't know when this will stop, but I am adding around 10-15 new discs every month so hopefully soon!
This has been the only bug for me so far but its slowly being sorted. As far as gigs go, I'm booked out every friday & saturday now which is more than I really wanted to do but in these tough times.....

Definitely your personality is part of 'the show' so even if you got a parking ticket that afternoon (which happened only last week grrr) you got to switch that off & make like you're Santa at Xmas on Prozac.

I also disagree with not getting the best you can afford - which doesn't necessarily mean needing to get the most expensive equipment on the market, but one doesn't have to 'cheap' out on a bunch of junk trying to save a couple bucks only to end up with a poorer sound quality. You can still get "quality" equipment on a lower budget (even good name brands) which will help in the sound quality overall - the kj running the system will make it work alot better if they also have an ear for sound and KNOWS how to run the system they acquire.
Also matching power amps to speakers is something MANY do not do. One sees a speaker that handles maybe 500 watts program (example) & they buy an amp that only pushes maybe 200 watts. The end result may get loud - I hear this all the time that it's plenty loud & they can't turn up past a certain point, but the sound quality is going to be inferior to that same speaker being pushed with proper amp power. Right there is going to be a night & day difference in sound quality. One can get a heck of a nice sounding PA system that will work in many club situations for about $1500 minimum (IMO of course).

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I have to disagree with ya Eric on the bar owner aspect.

I've been in this business (Off and on) since 1984 (DJ only at that point, didn't get into karaoke until 1996), and one thing that has been almost a universal truth is... many of the bar owners I did business with knew the BAR side, but had limited views on the entertainment side. For DJ it wasn't so bad. But for karaoke... I can't tell you the sheer headaches I've encountered with them. I honestly feel a good training lesson for KJs that are new to the business is on how to answer dumb questions or to redirect the owners to thinking along your way.

Everything from how to run the rotation their way to the sound to the bar side of how to price the drinks to wanting to charge cover at the door...

As far as the "best" equipment, I gotta tell ya, my equipment as it is right now, is nearly the same equipment I started out with. Same speakers, same amp... only thing different is I have the computer.

Only thing I would recommend is starting smarter on a CDG collection. I started out getting single discs (as I was just an enthusiastic singer), and then started buying discs in bulk when they came on sale... when I decided to go into the business as a serious entity, many of the discs I bought were to replace the junk ones I'd had before!

The best run bars have a manager and an entertainment coordinater. There is a reason for this.

But usually because it isn't cost effective you find bar owners trying to do it all themselves, spreading themselves thin.
Bar owners don't always have the time to dedicate to all aspects of the business to make it run smoothly. They don't become experts in all and certainly their biggest concern is not to be an expert on entertainment. They let a lot of the bar run by itself and when the bottom dollar is effected they try and fix it sometimes by making poor decisions. They don't take the time to learn about what makes entertainment most profitable because they think just having it should be enough. How to manage entertainment for them is usually a trial and error education.

This is just my take on the whole thing. All bar owners aren't bad, but some lack the knowledge they need or the time to do a good job when it comes to entertainment. You hear more negativity about bar owners than positive things because this is the place we come to when we need to figure out how to deal with our problems. People post when they need answers. If everything is going well there is no need to ask a question.

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[shadow=pink][glow=deepskyblue]. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
[updown]~*~ MONKEY BUSINESS KARAOKE~*~ [/shadow][/updown][/glow]

People here can have discussions about anything to do with karaoke and we do have a seperate place for KJs only. If you'd like to discuss marketing all you have to do is post the topic. I would welcome it. Lately we've had a few discussions in those areas: how to get a first gig and marketing for a gig that is failing. Isn't that what you are referring to? Or am I missing the point? I meant this in the nicest way.

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[shadow=pink][glow=deepskyblue]. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
[updown]~*~ MONKEY BUSINESS KARAOKE~*~ [/shadow][/updown][/glow]

re: MARKETING
The "other" forum has, for example, ongoing discussions about securing private parties (which are so lucrative), particularly weddings.

re: OWNERS "IGNORANCE"
Alright, so let's all agree that every owner is an inadequate businessmen when it comes to dealing with KJ's. So, what do you plan to do with that information?

Similarly, we've all had bad experiences with BIG businesses while dealing with customer service agents, right? Since my mother's passing in the spring, I have had to exert an amazing amount of energy to settle her affairs because of inept and ignorant customer service agents. My main goal, often, was to get them out of my way and find out who could actually help. Those who were supposed to be knowledgeable and capable of responding to my needs, more often than not, failed in their responsibilities. In some cases I've had to call the office of the Chief Operating Officer to get the appropriate results.

Others who have been in "my shoes" have told me of how they had become utterly frustrated, if not despondent, about their similar experiences. I've heard how such efforts had dragged on for many, many months!

So.... the worst problem anyone has shared with us here regarding "stupid" bar owners in no way compares to what I've gone through with my mom's estate dealing with people who are supposed to be fully knowledgeable in the areas in which I need assistance, but were unable to do so! Meanhwile, "stupid" bar owners don't represent major (household name) companies.

re: STARTING EQUIPMENT
There have been threel KJs in my area that started out with $99 Singing Machine karaoke players. That equipment, if nothing else, is incapable of making a key change. Yet, they hosted shows and gained experience. Today one of those shows is computerized. Starting with "junk" doesn't stop you from learning, progressing, improving and succeeding!

For those starting out looking for equipment, look to see what is good and durable. Further, instead of buying new, look to buy your local dealer's rental equipment. A reputable dealer will keep their rental equipment in good working order and you can get it for about 75% or less depending how long it has been used.

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You can be strange but not a stranger

First of all Eric I'm sorry to hear of the passing of your Mother. I lost my Mother, Father and Sister in the last 2 years and know how tough that can be, and the piles of paperwork and phone calls that creates. My heart goes out to you!


As For Dumb Bar Owners: They truly exist... Luckily they are not overly abundant in this area. Alot of bars or taverns are purchased by folks who do not have industry experience before the purchase one. So they learn as they go and many decisions are made without careful thought. I tend to agree that many KJ's do not approach the bar owner correctly with regards to how they operate or what their expectations and limitations are, and in turn create many of their own problems in the process. On the other hand you have bar owners who have no clue on how to book and accommodate entertainment, specifically a karaoke show. That is where the KJ fails to provide them with guidelines on how to promote and support the show from the bar's prospective.

Many times they are so interested in getting the gig that they don't take the time to discuss the details before they start. They just assume everything will just work out or they will deal with problems as the arise.

I say cover the bases up front and make sure everyone is singing out of the same hymn book so to speak.


Regarding Starting with Quality Equipment:

It should be professional quality, and have matched components (speakers vs amp etc) Decent quality mic's and they are good to go.

However with music I'm adamant about starting with Quality! It costs less in the long run. Trust me they will spend thousands later replacing the poor versions of many songs. I did it the other way and spent about twice as much in the long run. I saved a bit in the beginning but now it is very easy to get quality for a reasonable price.



I guess I would say if you want to get into the karaoke business on a shoe string I would say DONT DO IT!! Wait until you have the money or go borrow it. If you let the income from the business pay the loan back it should be paid off within a year or less if you have one night a week or more. Then after a year the profit is free and clear. Normal businesses take loans out to get started, why shouldn't a KJ consider it as well. I took a credit card and invested $5,000 I had enough to pay off the card in income within the first 6 months. Then I budgeted 20% of my income monthly to building a good library of songs. I still spend about 10% of my income on new music and another 10% on upgrades to equipment or cables etc.

If KJ's are serious about their businesses then they need to treat them as such. If they are doing it any other way they are not running a business they are running an expensive hobby...

I know a KJ here locally that was strapped for cash but was serious about getting started in the business. He delivered pizzas for a year to raise enough to buy his music by cash. Then I loaned him one of my systems for about 4 months and he made enough to purchase a fine sounding system now he has 3 of them. He repaid me by sending me plenty of referrals on private gigs that he could have done but gave them to me instead because I helped get him started and didn't charge him for the use of my system.

There are plenty of ways for those who really want to be in this business to purchase quality music and systems without breaking the bank.

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FlipSide Karaoke
Scott

Flipper

You've made some very important points, particularly highlighting the importance of having goals and a plan to achieve them. I also appreciate your acknowledgement that KJ's may bear more responsibility for some of the problems encountered with management. And maybe your advice should include querrying the owner as to his/her background. I infer from your posting that If the owner is new to the business, it may be best that an experienced KJ steers clear of that establishment.

And I must reiterate in different terms that if you don't have the "talent" to "entertain" an audience and the skills to run a karaoke show, all of the "best of" everything else will be to no avail. I frequented one of the shows that used "Singing Machine" equipment. The guys cut their teeth; proved that they could do it and then moved onto bigger and better equipment and expanded their library.

EDIT: So, what does someone do who invests over a couple of thousand $$$ into his/her first rig only to find out that they lack the talent, or that their community lacks the demand for his/her services?

I started as cheaply as made sense to me. I purchased: a laptop and external hard drive (which I had a backup plan for if I failed); computer software, a CDG player (as a backup if the computer crashed and to play my bumper music); sound equipment; a library of two hundred discs; a TV and stand, $200++ of cabling, couplings, adapters and the like; a table; bags; and printed song books.

Now for the bottom line: While I did everything I could to minimize my investment, if I had failed, AND I DIDN'T, I'd have been out over $2,000 of saving for my retirement (without consideration of the computer hardware)! Meanwhile , the whole idea of doing karaoke was to supplement my retirement income!

The only other way I see for minimizing the risk is to buy out a "retiring" KJ or getting your equipment second-hand in some other fashion

There is virtually no talent required to run a karaoke show. I say virtually, because it *does* require the chutzpah to stand up in front of a crowd. Little more. I have seen successful karaoke hosts that have only enough wits to get out of their own way. In fact, I am continually amazed at how many totally clueless people have run karaoke for a long time.

Singing talent required: Zero
Announcer talent required: Zero
Sound system skill required: Next thing to zero

In fact, I would say that if you can simply avoid coming across as a total jerk you can be successful.

Now if you have competition, you have to meet them in some way. But simply showing up on time prepared to go doesn't seem to be a trait that many hosts have, so if you can be reliable and prompt that can be enough to get you going. Combine fairness, consistency, clean and available supplies, and good equipment -- none of which require talent -- you are already a cut above most karaoke "shows" I have seen.

Now if you want to run a top-notch show, talent is nice. But singing talent is about the last thing you need. Much more important would be a reasonable show personality or top-notch audio skills.

It is helpful to be a good singer, particularly to help the poorer singers or to sing in duets. But it is not at all necessary.

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[color=#ffff55]Mickey J.[/color]
Alas for those who never sing, but die with all their music in them.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

Eric I do not recommend steering clear of a bar with an inexperienced owner. I do suggest covering all the bases to make sure you both understand what the expected outcome should be like and how you both operate. If you don't it could spell disaster.

As for the investment part of the business...Yes if you invested $2000-$5000 and failed then you would be out the money. There is an element of risk in every business venture and karaoke is no different. This is what I meant about people getting into the business and not taking it seriously and treating it like a business. If they were serious they would not attempt to become a KJ without the necessary skill set to be one. They would do plenty of advance research on the subject to be reasonably sure they will succeed. The one's who do it by the seat of their pants are putting their fate in someone elses hands.

Anyone should be able to perform enough gigs to pay back their initial investment even if they are not cut out for the business itself. You have to be downright lazy not to make enough to do that.

However if they want long term gigs, loyal customers, and an excellent reputation then they are going to have to work hard for it and run it like a business. They will have to develop new skill sets that they are lacking and learn how to operate successfully within the demands of the customers and venue owners.

Again if you are not running it like a business then it's an expensive hobby...

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FlipSide Karaoke
Scott

One thing that I've learned through years of experience in running businesses is that "the further you are removed from the task at hand, the easier it appears to be to meet the challenges of that task".

I would be surprised to learn that the karaoke hosts and dj's amongst us don't believe that we have particular talents and that, furthermore, those talents facilitate our being a successful host. Am I wrong in that regard?

Granted, some of you have shows that are so hectic and have such a large queue of singers that there is little opportunity to do much more than as a host than to cue up music. But even that requires some banter.

My experience, and I have an inquiring mind, is that the people in my neck of the woods select a show based upon several factors, including: the people in attendance, length of wait, location and more. But above all they pick the show based upon liking the host. Sorry, to disagree witht he conventional wisdom that "sound system" trumps all other factors. That may be the case by you; it's not the case here is So Fl!

I do agree with the Talent statement. You don't need to be a good singer or technically proficient either.

We have a College town south of us about 120 miles and there is a KJ there that packs them in. She has what I consider to be a below average (I'm being kind here) singing voice and technically she has flaws in her rotation. But the people love her personality and the sound system sounds really good...a bit too loud for my taste but never the less she does a decent job. It is hard to find stuff in her books as they are not professionally done. Yet she packs the place every weekend and has 25-40 singers per rotation.

Whenever I'm in town I always stop in to sing a couple and chat with her. I'm always picking up little tips here and there from what she does. She has only been a KJ for about 2 years.

Other than some ok mixing skills and a likeable personality she has limited talent but is in my opinion Very Successful.

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FlipSide Karaoke
Scott

Look, I have had a failure in business and have lost more than I would have liked. There are never guarantees.

My point in starting this thread is that this forum spends less time on the business considerations of starting and running a karaoke business than all other apects of the challenge.

Furthermore, I am trying to give those who are considering entering the business food for thought. I have proven that my business plan worked for me and I have noted that there are others who have gotten started with a lot smaller investment than mine! And while I have also noted that there is a local show with the best sound system in the area that has been unable to build a following after being in business for over 15 years, that point has never been responded to by anyone on this forum. My point in mentioning that show several times in the past is that, again, talent can trump equipment.

Lastly, in participating herein, I learned that many of you got started by helping out other shows before you ventured out on your own and undertook the considerable investment you have made.

So, how many of you got to try out KJing before making any significant financial investment in doing the job? That is ALSO a way of minimizing your risk before making an investment in karoake

I am a karaoke host and know what is required. I think I have some talent, but I don't delude myself. I am no great shakes as a vocalist - perhaps better than most, but not anything particularly special.


Talent helps, but it isn't required at all. Simple competence is enough.


I have been to a dozen different shows in South Florida, and quite frankly it doesn't seem to be any different than other places I have been. I have now been to 170+ different shows in 20 different states and provinces. Probably the consistent best-quality shows I have seen are in Seattle and Nashville. South Florida seems about average to me, perhaps slightly below average. Lots of hosts who sing often and poorly, crappy plastic wireless mics, grimy books, no-clue audio mixing, and late starts. The last trip I made there, the karaoke was pathetic. I will be there next week, so we will see if there has been a quantum leap.

I have a strong belief that karaoke is not about "the show". If the atmosphere in the bar is dismal, all the show you can make won't make it better. If the crowd has shown up ready to party, you don't have to do much but stay out of their way. Hosts can help, but they don't make or break the show. What they need to do is provide an environment that encourages the party.

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[color=#ffff55]Mickey J.[/color]
Alas for those who never sing, but die with all their music in them.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

There are SOME bars that will be PACKED no matter what type of entertainment or DJ /KJ is running the rig....College Bars are a GREAT example. - Price and Location play a bigger part than entertainment. my $.02

I disagree, there is a lot of talent needed to be a good KJ host. In the town where I am there are about a dozen Kjs who have been active in the last two years. Only a few of them have current gigs, and even fewer have the ablity to pack a bar, or get hired for special events on a regular basis.

There must be something additional because a lot of the other KJs are not "Total" jerks.

Having a decent sound system and using it correctly is not something ANYONE can do. It takes some learning (and expense). However unlike singing and announcing, as long as you have a decent ear nearly anyone can learn. For the singing and announcing that is far less true.



Knowing your regulars and making them return is crucial and it takes a talent in people skills. THis is huge.

Singing good helps. And it helps to make the singers feel you are "one of them" if the rotation is not too busy.

Announcer tallent required...
Many announers can sound pretty cheezy when they try to be announcers....
My approach is to try to give people a heads up when they are about to sing, even if that involves grabbing them from outside a minute or two in advance. It is the personal attention that makes people return. Remember faces and names, sure you can yell to the bar who is singing next, but even in a busy setting it is better to walk 30 feet and tell them personally. This works even in big bars with nearly 100 people there much of the time. When you cant find the person then announce but it is a last resort....

I have been to shows that the announcer is liked and others where they are disliked, it all comes down to the difference of a bit of eye contact and a word or two. Make the singer feel wanted, and then you are on your way.

Having a decent song list is not easy either. You have to work to get the songs your singers are going to like, that takes work and skill in knowing music and your target singers. True anyone can just go out and buy a few of the standard big sets of regular songs, but that will not make you sucessful with your target. Other people can just get a big song list, but that may backfire as you may then attract too broad an audience and not excell with any one subgroup of the market.

If we are to pretend that a skilled KJ is something more than just someone who bought 100 disks on EBAY and runs them through the bar's speakers we have to look for the little differences.

Sure the differences between a sucessfull and failed KJ may not be much, but they DO matter. Often it is hard to put a finger on exactly why one show works and another fails. The whole point of this forum is that we are trying to figure what those little things are that makes Karaoke work better. Sucessfull shows have been run that violate nearly every bit of advice given in this forum. But the sucessful shows probably do follow the consensus MOST of the time on how to handle the little differences.

In referring to "talent" I never mentioned singing ability as being a necessary talent. In fact, I don't believe that a host should be singing at a well-attended show.

If I understand Mcky's post about S Fl, he states he has had experience with shows that from his perspective have sub-standard equipment. Nonetheless, there are shows here that are well attended. Again, attendance is based upon factors that often include factors other than equipment!