Karaoke Forums

Sorry, Matt, but I don't think Obama's association with Ayers was as casual as "bumping into him"! And, yes, what about Rev Wright? Can you really believe that during a twenty year relationship neither of the Obamas knew of the Reverend's philosophies and teachings?

As to Ayers, it doesn't matter to me what the purpose of the foundation was, or who funded it. What is in question is why did Obama associate with Ayers?

Would a true patriot associate with Ayers?

And, again, when did we as a society begin to distinguish between a man and his deeds. Obama acknowledges that what Ayers did is "despicable". So, isn't Ayers despicable?

Matt, I think that you hit upon something rather important. Actually 2 points. First of all, Michelle Obama's comments regarding her feelings about our country. This was poorly covered up by her husband. Their attitude does seem to reflect that they do not have any pride in our country. I dont think anyone who is not proud to be American should run for the higest office in our land. He covers it up with his talk of change. There are some things he needs to leave alone! My concern is that when he will not, out of respect and devotion, place his hand over his heart during the pledge or the national anthem, his disrespect will lead to ideas and policies that will not be good for our country. If he has no pride in our country, what does he really have in mind? Maybe nothing, but I am not so sure I am willing to trust in that. The second point you made I completely agree with. As President, a man has the task of being the Commander in Chief of our Armed Forces. He has absolutely no military background. If he has no pride in our flag or anthem or our country, I dont expect for him to have any pride in our military. I question what will become of our military and equally important, our lines of defense. I fear he would compromise our safety as a nation. I dont know for sure that he would do such a thing, but I really dont trust him. On a lighter side, only a fool would trust a poltitian! But this is an extreem caution I feel regarding the man! I too can say I to others who do not feel this way, we all have our thoughts and feelings, and we are all entitled to them. That is one of the things that does make this country great. It is ok to disagree with how I feel and it is ok for me to disagree with those who feel different than I do. We can still go get a cup of coffee! --Mike

How you can compare Ayers to Hitler is beyond me. He is a professor now and has put what he did behind him. Obviously a court has not been able to put him away forever like they would have Hitler. We all have done stupid things in our youth..Clinton inhaled, Bush was a coke head, Jefferson had children with his slaves.What has happened to our willingness to forgive those who have rehabilitated their lives? There are a lot of great men that came out of the sixties, that werent so well behaved in their youth. And regardless of if hes sorry for what he did, Obamas affiliation should have nothing to do with his character. Was he there when Ayers was planning his bombing ? No, so why is he looked at as a conspiritor to Ayers crime? Bush associated with known Terrorists to further his oil empire and we let him stay in power for 8 years. If you are truly a "patriot" then if and when Obama is elected President, you will get behind him as our leader and support what he does. Ive done it for 8 years, now its your turn. By the way, I think it speaks volumes thast Colin Powell has endorsed Obama after he has been a staunch Republican and SofS under a Republican. But Im sure some will tie that move to a "black" thing these are just my opinions, so I hope you dont hold any grudges.

_________________
Gladly helping Kappy to become cyber immortal !!

by the way, i do agree that a candidate should have military experiance. I will definately concede that point.

_________________
Gladly helping Kappy to become cyber immortal !!

cup of coffee?? hell this is America, lets go grab a Bloody Mary !

_________________
Gladly helping Kappy to become cyber immortal !!

The point about Hitler was not to specifically compare anyone to Hitler, but what would you think of anyone who associated with Hitler, or the equivalent?

Now, is Ayers closer in character to Hitler or Jefferson? Ayers, at the time of 9/11 acknowledged that he believes that he didn't do enough "damgage" back in the sixties. And what he did were violent acts.

None of the "comparisons" that Dumbdrum made in his last post to other presidents involved any of them perpetrating a violent act! Do you think, if alive today, Jefferson would say that slavery is a good thing?

Lastly, MY Mother (may she rest in peace) taught me as a child that you are judged by those you associate with! Was anybody else on this forum taught the same?

Mickey,

you don't truly stand behind someone and support everything he does, otherwise there'd be no checks and balances in our constitution. We're not electing or selecting an Emperor, we're selecting a future Commander in Chief. And if that or ANY official does the wrong thing, they get prosecuted.

I'm no conspiracy nut, and I think Obama has the right to be working as a US Senator and likewise the future president. But whether or not he has the ability and the proper beliefs has yet to be determined to My individual satisfaction.

I was taught to be CAREFUL, but ultimately, I'm my own person and I find the good and bad in anybody I associate with. And I have the ability to publicly or privately condemn them for wrongful acts.

I had a pretty public problem with a fellow member that's since been banned. The man in my opinion turned rabid and began to bite not only at me, but everyone that didn't agree with his opinions and beliefs.

You didn't see me spin it away. I dealt with it, and openly said, "That's it, I'm done talking to you." I've done this a COUPLE of times with some individuals. If asked, I'll give the gory details in private if I think it's anybody's business other than my own.

I don't support the public stoning though that others seem to want to do.

Can anybody change in a period of time? Change their beliefs, their attitude, their work ethics? I have a local company that fired me in 1992 for tardiness and a bad work ethic. They STILL want to condemn me 17 years after the fact. Heck, even CREDIT CARD companies give forgiveness five years later! !

Mike I also served in the military, I have two grandsons presently in the military..I'm lining up with you, thank you for your service..Ken

So Matt, if your associates prove to be unsavory, some may wonder about your character? Yes? No? Or, if not your character perhaps they'll simply wonder about your judgment?

My Mom wasn't implying that I should avoid people or judge them prematurely; rather, she hoped I'd avoid associating with people known to be in trouble, of bad repute and so forth!

While I am a Vietnam vet, I was a leader on my college campus in the anti-war movement. Never would I condone a violent act to accomplish any goal, no matter how perfect that objective is. What kind of mind thinks is perfectly okay to risk harm to fellow human beings and to damage property? What kind of mind thinks there is any real benefit to doing so? And what kind of mentality reflects back on such acts and exclaims how he didn't do enough?

Maybe Eric...

But I also have known a LOT of joy with a man my grandparents (who finished raising me) told me to steer clear from. I never knew a more honorable person. Can you say that you've known someone for 32 years? I moved back home to be near this guy. He makes me laugh when I need it, and I in turn help him.

And yes, I still get flack. But those people don't KNOW him. They just see him. All because it was how he dressed or who HE hung out with. I knew a couple of his friends and liked and respected them. Figured they knew something I didn't know about. And took the chance.

There's LOTS of people I've done that with. Going by public opinion GALLS me. Judging a book by it's cover and all that. Usually, I put out my own feelers and wait for my neck hairs to stand on end before thinking ill of those folks.

actually the acts i quoted are violent. Do you know hopw many deaths are attributed to drug dealing. Can you be so sure that no blood was spilled getting that cocaine to Bush? I did coke for 10 years and at times did regrettable acts to get it, and I hate to think that someone is a lesser person for associating themselves with me. Anyone who knows me now would take a bullet for me as I would them. Why is guilt by association such a strong issue with you people? Noone here can tell me that they have not had brushes with bad people in their lives. What a simple minded concept. What your mother told you was good advice. What Jesus tells me is forgiveness is my ticket to the Lord. Is there no better advice than that? If we are judged by the Company we keep, what chance does any wayward people have of getting help to right their ship? That is a sad testimony of who we have become as a society. Afraid to reach out to those who need it the most, because we selfishly worry about what people will think of us for befriending those who sometimes need a friend the most to turn their life around. And as for Jefferson Im sure he would be intrigued to see a man of color become President, after all he believed "all men are created equal".

_________________
Gladly helping Kappy to become cyber immortal !!

Here's a pretty comprehensive article from the NY Times on the association between Obama and Ayres if anyone cares to go through it. If anyone has a source that proves there is or was a much more involved relationship, I'd like to read it.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/04/us/po ... ref=slogin

very interesting article Odie ! I didnt know that Obama condemned Ayers act. Is there nothing he can say to get people over this? What exactly are they looking for from him? Im surprised they didnt spin that comment already to make it look like Obamas a bad guy because he doesnt stand up for his friends

_________________
Gladly helping Kappy to become cyber immortal !!

It seemed like a good article to me. I'm trying to find as many actual facts as I can on the subject and wade through the inferences and assumptions.

To me, I think what we deal with is the fact that these people are applying for the highest profile job in the country. Because of the nature of the office, character of an individual will always come into play. Some things can and will be considered the foolishness of youth, others will not be taken so lightly. I think most everyone would admit that people can change, the question is have they or not. I think when you are dealing with high profile positions whether it be preacher, teacher, policeman, governor, legislator, judge, or predident, questions regarding character are going to surface. Not necessarily to hurt someones chances at holding a position, but more so out of deep concern for how the person will affect our lives and in this case, our country. Can men make mistakes? Yes! Absolutely! I have made many in my life. Can men change and be forgiven? Yes! Absolutely! We see it everyday in society. The problem is, we are not dealing with an ordinary man in an ordinary situation. The position of the office requires the man be of a higher standard, right or wrong, it is because we, out of human nature, expect it! We want someone we can believe in to be in leadership. Regardless of whether we have agreed with any past president and his policies, we have seen integrity, honesty, and character make a difference in the lives of our presidents. There are many who were as positive that Clinton was a terrible president. I know of many who think that Kennedy was one of the worst presidents to ever serve, after all his blunder created the Bay of Pigs incident. How do I feel? I just take em' as I see them and try to do my best to vote my heart and conscience. We all know that for the most part, any campaign promises made by either candidate will be tossed out the door and what we will see is party politics in action whether it be Democrat or Republican. That is how these guys got the nomination in the first place! They are representatives of their party's view points. Again, just my personal ramblings and only worth something to me and I respect anyone who feels differently. That's the American way! Freedom to think and feel as we want!

again, I say that even being ASSOCIATED with someone and never actually hanging with them is being spun out of control.

Typical politics. I hate it.

My points I address Obama with though is his patriotism. Nothing more, or less.

I think your last comment is the best comment on here so far Mike. After all, the President doesnt have nearly as much power as the senate or house to change our lives and how many elected officials have far more skeletons than our Presidents yet THEY determine our future.

_________________
Gladly helping Kappy to become cyber immortal !!

Thank you. The presidents greatest power is that of persuasion. (I have a double major English and Political Science) If we think about it in that context, we have a, for the most part, Democratic controled house and Senate.

i can totally respect your opinion on that with the facts you present. Perhaps the office will show us a different side to the man. Having an African American (or is he Arab like McCains supporters seem to think ke is?) for President is gonna be a real new experiance. He will have more pressure on him than any President in my lifetime. I think just running for President at the risk of being assasinated for your color or middle name is a huge risk to take, as well as Patriotic symbolism. I guess we can all agree that we can only wait and see.

_________________
Gladly helping Kappy to become cyber immortal !!