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that is a good point Mike, dont think for one second as a Dem I am not aware that it is my party that has caused a lot of these problems. Its funny cause we are haveing a few State races here as well in Nov and I am voting Republican on those Candidates because i feel that they (the Dems) have not represented us properly in their actions. Not only did we have a wrestler for a govenor here a few years back (Minnesota) but now we have a smart (@$%&#!) comedy writer (Al Frankin) running for office...can someone please send us a candidate that is NOT an entertainer!

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Per the NY Times article referenced:
A review of records of the schools project and interviews with a dozen people who know both men, suggest that Mr. Obama, 47, has played down his contacts with Mr. Ayers

Also from the NY Times regarding Bill Ayers:
Although never convicted of any crime, he told the New York Times in September 2001, I don't regret setting bombs...I feel we didn't do enough.

Now, again, my mother never recommended that I prejudge people. She simply recommended that I be cautious of who I associate with. So, Matt, having a friend that others have avoided doesn't reflect upon who you are, nor does it contradict my mother's advice. But it does speak of your good judgment!

Forgiveness, Dumbdrum, is a beautiful thing. And those who forgive are the ultimate benefactor of their effort. Bill Ayers has never apologized nor asked for forgiveness. And if Barack Obama has forgiven him for his deeds when he is not repentant, that's a personal decision of Obama's. I don't question any act of forgiveness. But the question is not whether or not Obama has forgiven Ayers, but rather why he associated with him knowing his character?

Forgiveness does not require that one hang out with the person one has forgiven. Saying that what someone did when you were eight years old is of no consequence to you today and that you have no reason to judge that person is AGAIN saying that Obama can look at Ayers and ignore not only what Ayers did but also that Ayers has no regrets. Using that logic, why should anyone who wasn't around the places bombed by the Weatherman resent Bill Ayers at all? Does it or doesn't it matter that innocent people died and thousands were terrorized?

To separate the person from their actions is to believe that good people can do despicable things, not be repentant for them, and still be worthy of esteem. I don't believe that.

And for Obama to work while an elected official, with someone like Bill Ayers provides respect and stature to Bill Ayers that confounds me. So it's understandable that many, sad but true, view Ayers as a respected member of the Chicago community!

IMHO, working with someone on a Board Of Directors is not a minor association - they were co-workers trying to find direction for and provide leadership to the foundation they led. That is not like bumping into someone casually and occasionally in Starbucks, and exchaging pleasantries. And if I saw Ayers in Starbucks I'd ignore him rather than exchange pleasantries!

Lastly, only Obama supporters label my concerns: "Guilt By Association". Meanwhile, I am not holding Obama responsible for the actions of the Weathermen back in the sixties. I am not holding Obama responsible for the past or current actions and positions of William Ayers. I don't care whether Obama has forgiven Ayers, or not! I just hold Obama responsible for the judgment, or lack there of, that Obama has displayed. And condemning the acts of Bill Ayers having been aware of them when they served together makes me ask, once again, how does one condemn the actiona of a person without condemning the unrepentant person who committed those actions?

A lot of times action speaks louder than words, and I believe that Ayers has atoned for his errors. He now teaches for a living. What better way to give back than through education. His faculty and students admire his intelligence so why after so long must he apologize. Will I ever get an apology from Bush for the death of my friend (soldier) in Iraq? doubtful.

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Ericlater, when I took my daughter to raise at the age of 9, I sat her down and we had a heart to heart talk. This is paraphrased as to what I told her: "Kristan, you will be known by the company you keep. One of these days, you are going to want to do something or be something and what you do now is going to follow you all the rest of your life. If you associate with people of questionable character, you will be labeled as one of them. If you hang out with the wrong crowd, you will be labeled as one of them. How you dress and how you behave will affect the way people perceive you." I told her that because I wanted her to always keep her future in mind and she has always taken care to be an incredible kid. She is in college now and planning on becoming a teacher and also putting herself though law school. At 19, she is very involved with the Young Republicans on her campus. What she told me was, dad, dont worry, I will not let party affiliation cloud my judgement. I will always look at the man. I remember what you taught me. Now, if I told my daughter about the need to be careful of the company she kept, I think it is even more important for someone who is president of our country to be of high character. His past is going to come back to haunt him.

As to Obama's endorsement of Powell. CNN has said today that Obama has pursued his endorsement for a long time. There is even now conversation that there will be a place possibly in the Cabinet for Powell. Could it be that Powell is using this to find his way back into active politics? Could be! But I dont know for sure, but we should be wise and realize that there could be something going on under the table that we have no idea of. Neither candidate is a saint and who knows what either might do for endorsements. Who cares who Powell endorses? I dont! I have the ability and the intelligence to make my own mind up and Powell has no pull with my decision. I still say Obama is not patriotic! He can get the endorsement of half of the Pentegon if he wants! He did not honor our flag or our anthem. That is personal to me! That is only my opinion and worth nothing to anyone but me! --Mike

I don't how becoming a teacher is in any way an act of repentance. And saying "sorry" is so much quicker and cheaper than earning a degree!

Also, what might you think he's teaching if he said that not enough was done (to america) by the Weathermen in the 60's. Pray tell?

I am sorry to hear you lost a friend in Iraq. He is to be honored. My thoughts on the matter would be this...and this is just only my feelings. I dont want the blood of any of our slain soldiers to be for nothing. To back off without finishing the job, makes their sacrifice seem insignificant. I dont believe you think the death of your friend was in vain. We dont always know or understand the reasons for involvement in war or military conflicts. I can assure you that governments, whoever they are, are not humitarian. It is not the nature of governments (any government) to be humanitarian. (I learned that from a professor who had served at the White House during the Kenedy administration as was a real advocate of Kenedy and his policies). Governments go to war for 2 reasons. Someone has what you want and you need to get it for the survival of your country or someone has attacked you. There is documentation that says the U.S. often lost more soldiers in a single battle during WWII than the total that has been lost in Afghanastan and Iraq together to date. What we have today that is different is media coverage that was not available then. We are closer to what is happening because of it. Why did we get involved in WWII? Germany did not attack us? Japan did! I see somewhat the same senerio being played out today. Whether we support the IDEA of war in Iraq or not to me is not as important as standing solid and supporting our troops and making sure we finish the job so they feel their buddys and commrads in arms did not die in vain and that they can come home one day with the feeling that we appreciate their sacrifice. They need us to honor them! To stand up for them. Not stop before we finish what we went there to do. I am sure our reason has nothing to do with humanitarian efforts in Iraq. I re-enrolled shortly after 911 in a class at our local university being taught by an Iranian professor who was an Ambassador to England in 1978, and he was in direct communication and worked extensively with the Shaw of Iran. The class was called Mid-East Politics. We went in depth about the politics of the Mid-east and what makes them tick! I ended up for a final exam having to debate the professor in front of other professors and the students of the class on the topic of ,"Should the U.S. pull out of the Middle East in light of its interests." I proved in that debate that our greatest interst in the Middle East was to maintain a constant military presence in that area for the defense of our country. I the professor conceeded the debate and I won on the basis of my research and my ability to debate the issue.
I said all of this to tell you that your friends death, while being tragic and sorrowful, was a great sacrifice for the safety of our country. I truly believe we must contiue to keep that presence in the area to maintain what peace that IS enjoyed by the world. The mid-east is a time bomb and will one day explode in violent war. Our presence there gives us an advantage as a nation.
Again, I am sorry for the loss of your friend. I salute him and honor him as a great hero! God Bless America! --Mike

I am sorry for sidetracking the discussion of this thread. I just think we should realize the sacrifiece of our troops and that what they do is vital to our survival. Now back to the election topic! Sorry again!--Mike

Ericlater, very often on our college and university campuses what we hear from the professors mouths is very anit-American and outright verbal display of disrespect of our values as a country. I would be concerned about what he was teaching on the campus. Worse, many young students will take his word as law! That is, if he is teaching anti-American ideology. It would not be the first time that has happened.

One other thought, Dumbdrums, while Bush may not apologize personally to the family of your friend and the family of others who have died in combat, I believe he mourns those loses. Even if he doesn't, I don't think he'll opine one day that not enough good young americans died in the Middle East!

Will I ever get apologies from long hairs spitting in my face and calling a baby killer? War is hell and unless u been there do not insult my commander-in-chief. You have been watching too much liberal TV crap..

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There's more to that quote though:

"A review of records of the schools project and interviews with a dozen people who know both men, suggest that Mr. Obama, 47, has played down his contacts with Mr. Ayers, 63. But the two men do not appear to have been close. Nor has Mr. Obama ever expressed sympathy for the radical views and actions of Mr. Ayers, whom he has called “somebody who engaged in detestable acts 40 years ago, when I was 8.”

well according to EricLater if you have killed someone, i should never associate with you and for both of you (karyoker and EricLater), my friend was a guardsman tricked into signing up for a school bonus. He was told all he would have to do is meet on weekends and at most be deployed to protect america on OUR soil. So before you accuse me of calling anyone a baby killer, you better check yourself friend, cause that love it or leave it tone dont fly with me. You dont know me, and i NEVER insulted our heroes, only the villians who sent them to their deaths. Dont try to trump my friend with getting spit in the face..he suffered far more than you did when his Hum V got blown to pieces.

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We3ll, Mikey, I can honestly say that your friend was lied too (may he rest in peace my friend!)... national guardsmen ALL know when they sign up that if push comes to shove, they may be activated to do police actions, sometimes with the regular servicemen, sometimes on their own. And God forbid, actually have to go full time ACTIVE. There's nothing new to this. When I signed up at 18, I knew it. That's why I decided to go in the regular service.

After having to kill for our country in self defense in Grenada, I can honestly say I feel for our servicemen that answered the call for both the Gulf wars and Afghanistan. My heart goes out to those like Ollie that served.

I for one never asked for my President to apologize to me for having to shed my innocense. It was MY DUTY.

The only thing I ever asked is respect what we had to do. That makes the nightmares I still wake up from a bit more bearable.

I wish to give my condolences to you Mikey for the loss of your friend. His service went way beyond what the National Guard is normally intended for.

Plus I'm sorry about the lack of respect that many Vietnam vets received when they returned home in the 60's. They were following their orders and doing their duty.

my point exactly, he should have been told where he absolutely understood that. Im not saying its proceedure to trick them, im saying some of the recruiters wave money in front of their face so they dont understand the rules. I swear to you, he was not clear about his role, because I questioned him about his responsibilities and when i corrwect6ed him about his foreign obligations , he and his folks emphatically told me i was wrong. Thank you for your service by the way, I dont think Ive never known a Grenada vet. It seems those vets dont get the credit they deserve, its almost like the war that never was, and believe me, i know you guys earned your props !!

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Thanks for posting that Odie.

Who would have ever thought that voters in the post-9/11 era would actually support a suspicious black candidate with a Muslim-sounding name that has “ties” to a “terrorist? And it's not as if this stuff hasn't been shoved down our throats for the past year. Is America unpatriotic? Is McCain that bad?

Somebody brought up Hitler. I'd like to point out that Hitler ALWAYS saluted the flag A lot of good he did his country.

thank you Odie , I appreciate that. It was the first time I have ever seen death on a personal level through combat. I live in a small town in Minnesota and it was unreal the pain we all went through for months. One ironic thing was that the freedoms he protected gave rights to a bunch of monsters who came down here to protest gays in the military (of which he was not gay). This group has done this several times to soldiers funerals, except this time there was 300 strong of a motorcycle gang waiting to smash their heads. needless to say they never showed after they were tipped to the bikers being there.

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Now isnt that an interesting thought I wonder if a show is playing (like a football game) if real patriots stand in their living rooms and salute while Jessica Simpson sings the National anthem. I have NEVER been at a superbowl party where people stand during the anthem and salute. they are all too busy drinkin beer and talkin politics.

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I remember hearing about these protesters. The members of this same "church" came to Oregon too and attempted to disrupt a couple of our Iraq war veteran's funerals and the motorcycle gang acted as a buffer to prevent the church members' disruptions. These members of the Westboro Baptist Church in Kansas believe that our casualties in Iraq are part of God’s punishment for the United States tolerating the gays. Now this is a church group showing a real lack of patriotism!

It would be my guess that McCain has also pursued Colin Powell. Even though his endorsement is not important to you, he has been a professional soldier for 35 years, has advised the last three Republican presidents ...and his endorsement would have been a huge boost in votes for McCain. My mother was pretty set on voting for McCain until she learned of Powell's decision. She has the utmost respect for the General. Like I've said before, our votes are sometimes based on emotion, just as you were offended by the lack of a salute while the National Anthem was sung, therefore sealing the deal on never supporting Obama.

As for being enticed by a Cabinet position, he has said publicly that he has no desire for that. Whether or not that's true remains to be seen. He would be a great addition to the Cabinet.

Well, I was one of TWO Air Force guys with the Marines! ! They made me an honorary Marine after my confirmed Kill. I can't tell you the nightmares that came up because of what I had to do... those guys that attacked us had been told we were there to steal their lands and hard earned money and goods... nothing but dirt-poor farmers we had to deal with. No matter how much we tried to tell them the truth, they just saw us as invaders.

Much like what's going on with Iraq and Afghanistan.

Anyway, thanks for your props, but it goes to those guys that really did the work! I just operated a computer and shot to save ourselves!

Your friend is THE REAL HERO! Especially given that he had NO idea what was happening. It was pretty surreal to me when I went into the water out of the helicopter. I don't even remember it. Just wind and water! THAT fast! Then I'm swimming to shore with my computer software wrapped around me in air-tight containers. The jarheads all gave me a hard time, saying I looked a bit like the Michelene Man.