Karaoke Forums

thank you Matt, I appreciate that. Amd i hope someday your nights are filled with peace. I do respect all those Vets that were doign their job. That is a sacrifice I cant wrap my head around. I dont think Id be anywhere near as brave as you were. I have no idea how anyone keeps looking at their mission as their job and put themselves in harms way. Honestly, I dont think i could have done that. I would have freaked out. Maybe thats not patriotic, but im just bein honest with you vets and keepin it real. i do appreciate what all of you on this forum have done for my freedoms, even though i argue with your choices and opinions.

_________________
Gladly helping Kappy to become cyber immortal !!

i appreaciate everyone keeping this thread as civil as it has been. Ive seen some real ugly and hurtful things said in political forums.

_________________
Gladly helping Kappy to become cyber immortal !!

Very good article, it helped me form a more accurate view of Obama's relationship with Ayers. But is this any different than the left's fascination with Bush's family involved with Nazi Germany's banks and business? I mean, here we are discussing the spin of a few political ads about the Obama/Ayers connection and the the feeling amongst Obama supporters is that Ayers now is not the Ayers then, but my oh my, did there spring up a bunch of stuff about the Nazi Germany/Bush connection when Bush wasn't even born yet. I guess it comes down to who one wants to believe, I guess.

There is/was a lot of interesting history concerning Prescott Bush's banking deals with the Nazi's. Just how much of it is relevant to the current Bush in power? Nothing. The underdogs by nature want to discredit whoever is in power by pointing out the opposition's scandals and flaws. Since Obama is currently in the lead, he's getting every possible slice of mud pie tossed at him.

Patriot Is the issue about Patriotism, seriously The actual President is Patriot, right Now, what did he do good Ask the rest of the world... Obviously, you do get a different view from the outside but c'mon, over 80% of the rest of world would vote Obama, that's a good sign

i always thought that one was ridiculous and was embarassed that my party even tried to spin that one..now, the oil connection to the saudis however....

_________________
Gladly helping Kappy to become cyber immortal !!

by the way !!! can all you "Ayers" people take a look at this. Looks like your "white" in shining armor has skeletons too with association.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/05/0 ... ?ress=true

_________________
Gladly helping Kappy to become cyber immortal !!

again, another association.....
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/07/0 ... 10354.html
boy dont these 2 stories look identical (Ayers and Lindner)
i believe the deathcount associated to Ayers was 2, but to McCains buddy was 17....

_________________
Gladly helping Kappy to become cyber immortal !!

Then let's not vote for either of them. Write my name in! The only thing I did was smoke a little doobie with Paul Soglin, former Mayor of Madison, during his college days at UWM.

I dont know...your name looks a little Middle Eastern to me Alright Im in, why not!!
Lordairgtr for Prez !

_________________
Gladly helping Kappy to become cyber immortal !!

To Odie and others who had a similar comment about my omitting a few lines of the NY Times article. Actually, I omitted the entire article, not just than the lines I felt were important to discuss!

I can only infer from the article that the NY Times has reason to believe that Obama's campaign is intentionally downplaying his involvement with Ayers.

And I must wonder why the true nature of their relationship was not the most crucial part of the article? And why don't we know exactly in what fashion that "relationship has been downplayed"?

Ironically, two of you felt compelled to re-post portions of the article, but not the entire article. Do you believe that I was being misleading by omitting the exact section you both re-posted? It would be sad if you did believe that! Acutally, I'm glad you have re-posted that section. Your actions leave me compelled to remark on that quote by Obama; it is most revealing!



I don't care whether or not they were "close". People don't have to be close to be associated. People can be "business associates" without being "close"! And while not germain to my point, defining "close" is always a personal matter.

And how can anyone not be outraged by that quote? I have wondered why Obama ever feel it necessary to makes such an inane remark. Did he feel guilty about having that association with Ayers? Did he feel fear that knowledge of that involvement might torpedo his campaign?

What I still don't know is why the following escapes so many of you:
Obama recognizes that he has to defend himself because he had shared responsibilities as a member of the board of directors of an important community organization with an unrepetant man that supported and was involved with wonton acts of terrorism that impacted the lives of thousands of Americans. Obama wants to be president of all americans. To accomplish his responsibility as a member of the board, Obama had to have discussions, directly or indirectly, with Ayers on almost every topic they voted on. Does anyone, other than Obama, see the incongruity of wanting to be President of the United States and being on a committee (board of directors) with someone whose beliefs and actions threaten the fiber of our society.

Wise men are not questioning Obama's relationship with Ayers or the Weatherman during their radical activities when he was 8 years old. Wise men are not making Obama "guilty", by association, for the acts of Ayers and his group. Wise men want to know about Obama's judgement today since there is no dispute that he was on a board of directors with Ayers?

One related thought: I was raised believing two wrongs don't make a right. So, to me, the perceived misdeeds of former presidents cannot be used to minimize anything done wrong by Obama or McCain. And the current candidates are not running against any former president.

There is only person with whom you can compare each candidate to in terms of judgment and character and that is his opponent!

Ericlater, please explain what devious activities you think Obama and Ayers were involved in together. If you can't pin point any, then probably none existed in the first place. As far as I know they were working together on nothing more than community based projects of a good nature. Why does Obama have to account for anything other than these community projects if there is nothing more to account for? Why play up a relationship that involves nothing more than these projects? Where's the big mystery? Other prominent republicans and businessmen were working along with Ayres too. Do all of these people also need to wear a scarlet "T" (for terrorist) just for being in the same room with Ayres in his post-terrorist days?

Odie,

I never stated or implied anything about the nature of what Obama and Ayers did and accomplished while working together. I don't really care.

I simply want to know how a man who is a Legislator in the state of IL (and now wants to be President of The United States) can been involved in any project with the likes of William Ayers?

It is clear to me that Obama is personally unmoved by what Ayers did in the Sixties! Obama is unconcerned that Ayers is unrepentant and does not seek forgiveness for what he and the Weathermen did! Obama doesn't care, ironically, that around the time of 9/11 Ayers stated that he/the Weatherman had not done enough during the sixties.

It is indisputable that Obama is defending his associated with Ayers. Would it make a difference if Ayers did his deeds while a board member of the foundation they both worked for? To me the crux of the matter is that Obama is willing to distinguish a Man from what that man did/does.

To me --- a person is judged by his deeds. If someone had done something that they regret, and are repentant for, and asks for forgiveness, their misdeed(s) can be forgiven. But I must point out, and this important == to forgive does not require that one forget.

Many Jews who were victims of the Nazis had to learn to forgive in order to heel and move on with their lives. However, they also remember their history and teach "Never Again". You can't teach "Never Again" if you forget the history that you wish shall never be repeated. And I think it represents bad judgment on the part of anybody who believes otherwise.

So, I question Obama's judgment. Or, maybe it's not a matter of bad judgement. Maybe he simply was associating with like-minded people with whom he was quite comfortable being around?

I also questioned Obama's judgment and or philosophies based upon his twenty year association with Rev Wright. Or, again, maybe his judgment was that Rev Wright's teachings mirrored his owned beliefs and that his life was enriched by attending Wright's services. Those are the very reasons why I attend services!

PS: I see no reason why others who had similar involvements with Ayers shouldn't be criticized. And let me know when any of them run for office where I vote so I'll make sure to take their relationship with Ayers into consideration when I'm ready to cast my ballot!

Actually, one has to wonder why those who are not concerned in the least with Obama's relationship with Ayers simply haven't replied to questions regarding said relationship with: "Why, do you ask"?

In other words, why is Ayers such an important figure that Obama's relationship with him is worthy of being questioned?

If the question is truly inappropriate, I believe that masses of people would have risen up by now with proof that William Ayers is a good man and that there is nothing questionable about his character, philosophies, intentions and deeds!

I'm thinking that those (not you Ericlater) who continually fixate on the Obama-Ayres connection are really more interested in maintaining this "palling around with a terrorist" image rather then getting any hard core facts one way or the other. It's probably more valuable to Obama's opponents to keep the speculation and mistrust going.

What more does Obama need to say other than "Mr. Ayres is somebody who engaged in detestable acts 40 years ago, when I was 8” in order to show condemnation of Ayres' previous terrorist activities?

Obama needs to explain why he finds it completely acceptable to "pal around" today with someone who did a destable act forty years ago - an act that was directed primarilly against the government of the United States, the very government that he (Obama) wants to lead today!

And that's as simply put as I can get it.


FYI: I haven't finalized my decision about who I will be voting for, but this question along with the question of Obama's relationship with Wright goes to the core of why I am undecided!

How often has Obama associated with Ayres for whatever reason since Obama became a US Senator? I have not seen any documentation concerning this.

Your question (to me?) doesn't answer the question why Obama had any involvement with Ayers for any length of time during any time period?

And what about his and Michelle's relationship with Rev Wright?

At the time Obama first met Ayres, Obama was unaware of Ayres' history as a terrorist. Perhaps Obama should have stopped all association with Ayres as soon as he became aware especially if he intended 13 years ago to one day run for president.
It's not always easy to plan ahead. If Ayres was still involved in terroist activities in the late 90's then there'd be absolutely no question that Obama should have cut off all ties.

I have not looked into the Rev. Wright connection in depth. I do know that Obama has shown strong disapproval of that infamous Rev. Wright rant.

Mighty strong opinions some of you have;)

Odie, I thought you didn't like to argue politics? Or.. is that only when it's involving my husband, and being discussed at the bar over a Budweiser?

Interesting reading. I like to keep my reasoning to myself (no... I'm not racist) but I sure hate to see Obama be our next president, although I'm pretty certain it's in the bag for him. But I'm not crazy about McCain either.

I just think we're doomed. I'm anxious to have v-day over so the daym commercials will go away and we can return to regularly scheduled programming:)

*Peace everyone*

_________________
♥ Laugh your heart out, dance in the rain. Cherish the memories, ignore the pain. Love and learn, forget and forgive. Because you only have one life to live. ♥