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, arguing with Lonnie after a few Budweizers is quite an experience. Don't worry Charmin I'll go back to not caring and feeling we're doomed pretty soon!

Odie

You pose an excellent question - When did Obama come to know of Ayers' background?

So, I ask two questions:
a) Is it really likely that Obama had not learned a good deal about who Ayers is during their tenures on the board of directors? Maybe not?
b) But if that is the case, why hasn't anyone from Obama's camp offered that explanation? That answer would have put the question to rest months ago, in my mind.

If, however, someone comes forward today with that answer, I'd find it hard to believe. Months have passed since the relationship came into question and we've heard all types of responses and explanations none of which pointed to ignorance of what Wm Ayers had done.

I particularly detest the effort that has been made to deflect that question by accusing anyone who asks about the association of assigning "guilt" to Obama by association. As per my post, I haven't accused Obama of being "guilty" of anything in regard to Ayers' and/or the Weathermen's activities.

OK, sure I agree, it would be nice to have all the details of the Obama-Ayres connection spelled out with a timeline and everything. I'm after the truth too. I'm never 100% sold on any politician,

Odie

I'm so glad we agree that we don't disagree ---- Inquiring minds not only want to know but need to know!

Honestly I am more worried about what the canidates say they are going to do with our economy and health care system. I have studied both tax proposals to boredom. Basically it appears the average middle class person will see very little difference in the 2 plans as far as the bottom dollar is concerned, Obama's plan slightly more generous. The problem comes in down the line. They both are going to leave us with a horrible national debt trying to win over voters by decreasing taxes.

I am very worried for the small businesses being they employ a huge percentage of our work force. They are under great strain with the economy the way it is now. If we are thinking selfishly most people will love Obama's plan because most of us are middle class and love the idea of lower taxes for us and higher taxes for companies, but what happens to our economy when businesses have less money to hire people and no insentives to keep their businesses in this country. If we are thinking of our nation as a whole McCain's proposal looks better. In the long run what happens to small businesses and big companies will effect us all. Lower taxes won't do us any good if we don't have a job. People complain about losing their jobs everyday because their company moved accrossed seas. This is because we've made it cheaper to do so. We by far have the highest corporate tax rates already.

As far as healthcare goes I am at a stalemate. Neither proposal has ever been tested. I understand the tax implications to small business from McCain's proposal and I am not sure if in the long run the change will not be damaging. Obama's healthcare plan is so drastically different if proven the wrong choice could be devistating. Either one to me is taking a risk, but we need to take some risk to make a significant change. McCain's is lower risk, but what if Obama's plan works? We won't know until it happens. I have read many opinions on both. Yes if they work how they are supposed to they sound great, but we won't know how these plans will pan out and how they will effect the medical community until they are implimented. Obama's for instance - Sure it sounds wonderful to have insurance without worrying about preexisting conditions, but don't you think that will drive up the cost of your insurance dramatically? If millions of americans without health insurance are all thrown in with the federal ins program how will that system not over load? Will we be paying higher taxes to pay for the federal ins program deficit? Will our next bail out plan include the federal ins program?

I would love to hear your input on what I perceive of these programs. I realise my opinion is just that and freely welcome others without argument.

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Fair enough, let's look at McCain's associations. Has anybody even clicked on the links above? Mr. G. Gordon Liddy is the infamous guy in the middle of the Watergate scandal, one of the biggest political scandals of all time! He has a radio show (which McCain appeared on). Liddy bragged about giving helpful advice to the Branch Davidians to "go for head shots" when talking about shooting American law enforcement officers because of the bullet proof vests. Liddy praised Hitler saying. "Hitler made me feel a strength inside I had never known before." Liddy calls McCain "an old friend".

Quote: In 1998, Liddy's home was the site of a McCain fundraiser. Over the years, he has made at least four contributions totaling $5,000 to the senator's campaigns--including $1,000 this year.

Sarah Palin apparently has anti-American associates too. This is important because she is a 72 year old heart attack away from the presidency. She is closely associated with the Alaskan Independence Party, which on its Web site declares secession from the Union as one of its goals...they wish to establish Alaska as an independent nation. Founder, Joe Vogler is open with his intense hatred of the United States and its flag. Look up what Sarah Palin said in praise of this group in her recorded address to their convention just this year! I think you can find it on YouTube.

My last input........it will be hard to convince a Republican to run against Obama four years from now.....I wish peace and prosperity to all of you, and to my country....Greg

Babs, to me, creating an insurance program for this country is to step into the same situation that is found in the government of France. I once was given the task in Political Science while taking a graduate class at one of our Universities, of creating a government for a country that was created by the professor. We were all encouraged to examine the government of France, because their government has all of the programs in place to take care of the expenses of necessities such as health and public transportation just to name a couple. In reality, the French model, which is obviously used as a prototype for the ideas tossed around in Washington for our country. Everything looks good and sounds good on paper. What is not so good, is several things which create a problem with doing things the American way. I hope I can explain this without a lot of confusion. First of all, to create a national healthcare program is to create socialized medicine. That does not seem too bad once you swallow the word "socalized," and can put aside the idea of socialistic governments. However, you can not lay that aside becasue the opperation of the socialized medicine or healthcare program will take away the opportunity for a patient to receive the best possible care and the choice of doctor and hospital facility will be taken away from the patient and placed completely in the hands of the federal government. I have heard it argued that this will not happen, however, it has to be that way for the government to be able to even consider financing such a venture. The second problem found in socialization of or nationalization of healthcare is that it is not the American way for government to control a persons right to make a living, own a business, or opperate a practice such as a physician does. The doctor would work for the federal government and would lose the incentive to continue in medical practice. This means that many of the good physicians would cease to exist. Why? Because of excessive government control over their work and practice. At the present, yes, it is true that medical costs are outrageous, and there are many people who are unable to afford health insurance. I have not always been in the position I am now in. I have been in the position where I did not have insurance, and did not know where I would or could find the money to purchase a plan for me and my family. It took a lot of extra work to be able to acquire even an acceptable healthcare plan for us. Even in light of the fact that I personally have been there, I still do not think that the answer to fixing the healthcare issue in the U.S. is socialized medicine. I would rather be able to choose who I see and choose where I go. I would like to be able to feel confident that I am getting the best possible care that I can receive. With that said, I am not sure what the answer is, with the exception of the fact that we do have medicaid to help many who qualify. Maybe there could be a restructuring of medicaid to be more inclusive of some who can not afford insurance. Then we have to deal with the question of what to do with those who do not qualify for medicaid. Perhaps, many could do what my family did at the time. My now ex-wife went to work with the intent that her efforts of earning wages were to help provide the money for insurance. Anything left over was for her to decide how she wanted to spend or save. There always seemed to be some extra after paying for insurance! It was not easy for her to go to work since we had a small child at the time, but we worked it out. Many times, people have failed to exhaust all possibilities to attain more money needed to take care of some of these needs. Not everyone, I said, sometimes, people fail to do all they can do. It is my opinion the federal government does not owe us anything. We should be self sufficient to make our own way in this country! That is the American way! We can have whatever we are capable of earning and attaining on our own. I dont want the government to have that much control over my life. I have sat here trying to come up with an answer about how to deal with those who do not qualify for medicaid. I dont have an answer for that, but I am sure there is one that does not include taking away the rights of doctors and hospitals and insurance companies (even though I dont like what they do in charging people like they do) to opperate freely as they do in a country that speaks of being the "home of the FREE, and the brave." A national healthcare system is just a start at creating a socialistic country that will ultimately strip us of our rights as citizens. One more concern that must not be negelected to bring up. We are all getting older. The greatest burden on Social Security at the present is the fact that the baby boomer generation has reached retirement age and is looking at the need to access not only social security, but an increase in those who are going on medicaid. If we move to a national healthcare system, the elder people of our country are going to either receive the poorest quality healthcare or they will be denied care all together. Is that where you want to be in a few years with your own life just to be able to enjoy the benefits of being covered by the federal government for healthcare now? I dont think so. I believe we must examine the ramifications of making such decisions. I could go on and cite evidence, as I am sure most of you can do also, that shows there is a decline if concern and care for the aged of our country. I have a mom that is 79. She is my mother and I want her to have the best healthcare available until she dies. I do not want some entity looking at her and saying, "She's an old lady, let her die!" You think that is extreeme? Think again! I have written more on this thread than I ever do and I probably should just be quiet, but I just want to say what I think and feel for once! No one has to agree with me and I appreciate and value everyone's opinion even if you dont think like me! That is one of the things that makes this country so great! I am sorry for writting a novel here!lol --Mike

Mike... two words my friend... PARA GRAPH! !

Love ya bud! But WOW!

Matt

ML -I totally appreciate your input !

One of the problems we are facing in our family is my daughter has health insurance, but even with it can not afford her meds. Her employer does offer good ins. Blue Cross/ Blue Shield. She has the most expensive plan with them, but they only cover a certain percentage of her meds. We have looked into different programs to help her in Illinois, but known do because she has ins. It is frustrating that even with insurance she is struggling.

Insurance companies in my mind are the problem. They are as greedy as wallstreet !
Okay Obama and McCain are trying to make insurance affordable, but what about meds?

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My Sheree,

Good questions about associations of McCains. I'd love to hear more about the people he associates with whose character you believe should be questioned. The only reference you made that I am really familiar with is Liddy. I do know Gordon Liddy was a burglar, and did time in jail for his crime. So, I guess you can say that he did the crime and paid his time.

Now, I don't know if it there is any significance to the fact, you say, that Liddy referred to John McCain as "his old friend"? I know McCain is old, but does he refer to Liddy as "my friend"? And doesn't John McCain refer to everyone as "my friends"

As to who is contributing, including G. Liddy, to the campaigns of each candidate, I don't think the average voter could handle the facts. They have no idea as to of all of the dubious people and dubious organizations that make political contributions to campaigns every election cycle. What do you think the purpose is for an organization tot contribute to opposing campaigns, simultaneously? If we could all easily retrieve donor records to assist in selecting who to vote for, we'd finally come to the correct decision ---- "NONE OF THE ABOVE"! That's why I believe we should only allow the idle rich, the independently wealthy, people with no financial ambitions and only the public's best interest at heart to run for office!

Lastly, I'd like to believe that at this juncture, we've heard about each and every dubious relationship either candidate has been in. But I'm willing to be made aware of any substative inappropriate relationship - one that strikes at the judgment and/or honesty of the candidate!

And maybe there is something "there" regarding John McCain's relationship with Liddy, but I don't see any basis to parallel that relationship with Obama's relationship with Ayers.

No? No parallel? Interesting. Liddy reportedly held a fundraiser at his home for McCain. Liddy was reportedly scheduled to speak at another fundraiser for McCain in 2000. The Charlotte Observer reported on January 23, 2000, that McCain's campaign vouched for Liddy's "character"...

Quote: John McCain's appearance on The G. Gordon Liddy Show 11/8/07 includes a discussion between Liddy and McCain, whom Liddy described as an "old friend." During the segment, McCain praised Liddy's "adherence to the principles and philosophies that keep our nation great," said he was "proud" of Liddy, and said that "it's always a pleasure for me to come on your program."


Hmm...apparently McCain not only knows him, he's vouched for his character and praised him.

Matt! Gezz! I had no idea I was writing so much. I would crucify one of my students for that! I was just typing and stopping to deal with students and not paying any attention to the fact that I did not use paragraphs! That is disgusting! Sorry folks! Even the teacher makes a few mistakes along the way! --Mike

Babs, That is really strange about Blue Cross Blue Shield. We use the same company for our insurance and I have great meds coverage. My generic is only $5.00 and increases slightly from there. There are some plans available if you do a google search that offers some decent meds. policys. You might check some of them out. I think you can even take out a meds. policy or rider for your insurance. --Mike

Matt! Gezz! I had no idea I was writing so much. I would crucify one of my students for that! I was just typing and stopping to deal with students and not paying any attention to the fact that I did not use paragraphs! That is disgusting! Sorry folks! Even the teacher makes a few mistakes along the way! --Mike

Babs, That is really strange about Blue Cross Blue Shield. We use the same company for our insurance and I have great meds coverage. My generic is only $5.00 and increases slightly from there. There are some plans available if you do a google search that offers some decent meds. policys. You might check some of them out. I think you can even take out a meds. policy or rider for your insurance. --Mike

I was thinking the same thing

I would agree with Sheree that there is an adequate parallel when questioning McCain's relationship with Liddy. Liddy has advocated some violent actions in his day as Sheree pointed out.

ok lets see....ayers NEVER served prison time, he is free to teach college and NO students have EVER complained about whatever it is that he is teaching. Ok, Liddy went to jail, told the wako nuts to shoot for the head of the DEA agents , Hitler makes him giddy..Mccains other pal Linder (the other link noone wants to comment on that i left) is directly involved wityh the cartel of columbia and responsible for over 16 deaths. Another friend of Mccains. A better friend to him than Ayers will admit to being with Obama..hmmm did anyone hear of the USS Forrestell that Mccain served on? He started a fire on board through his own negligence that wound up killing 132 service men aboard as they fought the fire he started. Where was he as those men perished in flames and explosions? Daddy Mccain senrt a helicopter that flew him to a place where in his own words he recieved some R and R..now THATS a patriot. As a crippled ship sailed half destroyed back to port with casualties and millions in damage, ol Jon was nowhere to be found. His service record is pathetic. His POW stories grow a foot bigger every year (he actually gave up more info than name and rank and serial to his captures, said it was a plan to escape ) he graduated 894 in a class of 899 so we know how attentive and intelligent he is. You Mccain people are so out to get the boogieman, you dont know ANYTHING about your candidates misgivings. All you say is he is a hero. I say a hero wouldnt try to run for president after all of his dishonest and deadly mistakes.

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if there is anyone left with an objective mind, read the new Rolling Stone (one of the most heralded political magazines around) Mccains on the cover and there are things in his history that need to be recocnized. by the way, Thank you Sheree for reading my links. I wish there were more people who werent scared to read the truth..

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I dare you !
http://www.rollingstone.com/videos/vide ... ohn_mccain

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