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Babs and Bill, I can see where you are coming from Bill, except that if the government covers the population, who is going to pay for it? How is government going to get the money to pay for it? We are already in debt as a nation. The money has to come from somewhere. The only viable answer would be from the pockets of the tax payer, so yes, Babs, we would be paying for it ourselves in the long run. Would the government raise taxes to pay for it? I can't see any other way for it to be done? If health care costs are controled by the government, then we are, in some ways, interferring with the rights of people and free enterprize. We, as the population may not feel that doctor, hospital, medication, and insurance costs are appropriate, but we are not the ones providing that service. Would you want someone regulating how much money you were allowed to make with your karaoke business? I dont think so, you feel that your services are worth X amount of money. I have read threads here where people have vowed to not work for less. Perhaps those in the medical / insurance industries feel the same way. I am not trying to justify the high costs of their services, but I must defend their right to free enterprize.

Not only do we have to consider the constitutionality of regulating and controling businesses and services in the private sector, we must also ask ourselves how long would it be before the government was forced to either back out of the business of providing health insurance and regulating costs before they would have to regulate quality of services and who would be eligible for services due to age restrictions. In other words, the government would have to determine whether it was cost effective to provide quality care to the 80 year old grandmother whose health is really failing her. Would we not eventually see our older people pushed out to die without proper care from the medical community. It really could happen that way. After all, expenses must be held to a minimum.

In dealing with this process, would the government not also be regulating who you see and where you go? I think that would be the case. If a doctor or hospital did not agree to the amount the government was willing to pay for medical services rendered, patients would be told that particular doctor or hospital was out of the loop and if the patient wanted to see his or her own doctor or go to his or her own choice of hospital, they would have to pay for it out of their own pockets without benefits provided under the governments healthcare plan.

A lot of what I am saying can be justified by examination of many hmo plans that have been in effect for several years. Many people have found that their policies would not allow for quality health care. I think, to me, the main issues that concern me is quality healthcare (which again, I cant see being a long lasting benefit to Americans under a universal healthcare plan) and the fear that as we get older, due to a universal healthcare plan owned and opperated by the federal government, we would find ourselves without care period when we needed it most.

Finally I also concern myself with the constitutionality of governmental control of private businesses and practices. Part of the benefits of being a part of this wonderful country is the right to what we can earn. It has been proven over and over again that any form of a utopian theory is not going to work in this country or any other for that matter. People want to make more money, buy bigger cars, live in bigger houses, have better lifestyles. We are never content with what we have. I can not imagine doctors or businesses such as hospitals being interested in putting a salary cap on their wages just because there are many people who do not believe they should make the kind of money they make. What is fair? I know it does not seem fair to the individual who is struggling to have proper insurance coverage, which includes purchase of medicines. I have been there. I know what is on that side of the fence. I have a mother 79 years old and her medication bill is outrageous, but do I have the right to demand the government regulate the cost of these goods when it is their right to produce and sell their merchandise? I know the argument is that people are hurting because of not having the help they could receive from proper insurance. They are eventually going to pay for it anyway through taxes and lack of raises on their jobs.

Who is right or wrong? I dont know, but I am afraid to mess up a system that is actually working for those who have it. We could create a huge mess that none of us could fix. I think finding a way to ofset cost of medicines or maybe a specialized tax deduction relating to purchase of medications might be helpful. Something like that would require keeping receipts and filing perhaps a special form for meds. with the IRS. I can see where universal healthcare seems like a fix, but to me it is a quick fix that eventually will hurt us all in the end. I dont want that to happen.
One more thing to consider and I will quit writing, and I did actually use paragraphs this time so maybe for those who bother to read this it might be easier. Creating a universal healthcare system would affect more than the medical industry. We all know that when we pay in our premiums, insurance companies re-invest our money in stocks. To create a universal healthcare system would basically bankrupt the healthcare provder industry. Not only would they lose, but there would be damaging effects on Wall Street again because of the amount of money invested through insurance companies.

I said one last point, but one other that to me is important to note. I studied Political Science under a Harvard Graduate who worked closely in Washington for the Kennedy administration. Whether I agree with the politics of the Kennedy administration is not important, but something this professor told us has stayed with me. He said to us, "Don't be fooled, governments are not humanitarian. They do not care about people. Government can not concern itself with humanitarian issues and survive. It must act in ways that secures its survival." I realize we, as a government have been involved at times with humanitarian efforts. The government does send money to other countries for aide to those countries, but I must tell you that those efforts by the government are not for humanitarian reasons regardless of what they publicise. There will always be underlying reasons for what they do. We are either giving some governmental offical or governmental power in a country something they ask for in exchange for things the American people have no knowledge of. This being the case, the government can not be too concerned with the financing of universal healthcare. It is not a positive point of interest to put money into something for nothing. Governments will always be concerned with what they can get in exchange for its service to another country or to a group of people. Again, all of this is just the thoughts and ideas that run through my head after many hours and study of politics and government on the graduate level, and is only worth something to me! --Mike

medicare is run by the goverment how are they doing with that..

yes, medicare is run by the government. That said, we should be concerned even more about putting the government in charge of our total health care system. Not related, but still something to consider. Our education system was doing fine until the government got involved with laws such as the no child left behind law and standardized testing. Now we have a mess in the education world because the government did not let professionals do their job. Some legislator, not a teacher, thinks they know how to fix the education system. They will spend a long time fixing the mistakes they have made out of what they have created! Again, if they can mess up medicare and education. What else can they mess up. Dont blame it all on Bush, the legislative body is made up of and largely controlled by the democrats! --Mike

I believe both houses where controlled by the Republican party the first six years of Bush. The last two years been the Democrats.

Yes, that is correct but in the 2 years they have been in control, there has been nothing different than what we saw under the Republicans. They certainly have not made an effort (with all the democratic talk about reform and change) to make any changes. I am not blaming anyone. I am just calling it the way I see it, and I am sure many see it differently....that's ok too! Isn't politics fun! --Mike

I agree, this has been an interesting thread. For the most part respectful.

Jerry

Well one thing I've learned is that when it comes to politics and religion you can't convince anyone of anything. All one can hope for is for the other side to understand why you believe what you do.

To those of you who think your personal health care is locked in, think again. The current system is unsustainable without some kind of cost containment. Nothing will be the same in another 15-20 years.

I don't know the cost of my idealized plan organized along the lines of Japan and Taiwan. The Obama plan is estimated to cost around $100 billion a year, which is why it won't be implemented anytime soon if he's elected. We've just nationalized our banks. We'll have to divest ourselves of that little purchase first.

If he's elected... if he's around for two terms... maybe.

What flippin fantasy or lie are you referring to? I have had personal friends die and never came back. I dont remember that incident..

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Good point, it will be hard for him... You can't fix in 2 years all the damage done in the last 8 8 years ago, this country was in the surplus, now, in deep trouble If I would run my personal budget the way he did, I wouldn't have a keyboard to type this Now, there's no more money, a health system that has no $$$ and a killer still on the loose

Just imagine the nice health care system Americans could have if he didn't spend it all in Irak Different priorities I guess

The illegal aliens get better health care than we do. I have scars and dont think you can get the best of me here or anywhere else I have had a very productive life. As a 68 year old I will invite you outside and kick your arse. And I wasnt on drugs when I was serving my country and going through real stress.

It is no secret here where I live. I am real. Where are you? Do you have a phone #? Do you have a name laddybuck? Do you want to approach me as a man and not some kid on the internet?

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Nobody has insulted you personally ....yet you have threatened bodily harm and even suggested that you could kill someone "40 different ways". I'd suggest you knock it off! It is a felony to threaten others over the internet, just like it is by letter, phone or in person.

Man, you sure seem to have an attitude problem, I suggest you go take a nice walk before you regret it You edited your post 3 times and it get's worst everytime

It is not a felony unless I meet him in person. I would suggest that you liberals quit promulgating rumors on the internet about the the true heroes unless you have proof other BS from rumors.

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Really? I guess you'd better rethink that Ollie. Maybe even look it up. If you are a true hero then I guess we are all in trouble. Your conduct is that of a bully who can't make his point without name calling and threatening body harm. This whole thread was started as an attack on Obama. Did anybody get in a hissy fit over that? No.

Hey Ollie, lets have a beer and chill... Everyone knows that you are a good person, and don't really mean any harm to anyone. It's just political talk that gets a little heated sometimes. Besides, we can all be friends again in a couple of weeks, and whatever happens, happens. Ron

its amazing that you expect our sympathy for all the mean people who have spit in your face and yet you threaten me like this. You give Vets a bad name. So many men have died wearing that uniform and you dishonor all of them with your BS. I doubt you were even in combat. What unit did you fight with? And realize I got a Vet friend following this thread and hes gonna expose you for the braggart that you are.
My buddy is betting me you were a cook in some safe haven way down in the South.
The first time you told us you were called a baby killer i felt bad for you, by the third time you "bragged" about it , I believed you probably were. What a sad represenative you are of the REAL heroes. Get over yourself man, I believe the people didnt spit in your face for killing babies,they did it because you are a jerk.

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my name is Mike by the way...and Im in Minnesota. Why dont you throw on your hearing aids and buzz on out here grandpa in one of your copters and teach this "lady" a lesson hero style. Why dont you give me your number and Ill call you.

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Ollie, explain it to the FBI when they kncock on your door is someone decides to lay a complaint.

Better yet, say the same thing only directed to anyone under the protection of the Secret Service. See how quick they are to respond. Just to let you know there are four additional people and their families under their protection. John McCain, Barak Obama, Sarah Palin, and Joseph Biden.

Uttering threats, either in person, by mail or by means of telecommunication is an offence. In fact a Canadian teenager made internet threats to George Bush. Very quickly he got a visit from the RCMP.

Ollie you seem to think because you're a veteren of Vietnam that you should have special privliges or you don't have to conform to the rest of society. I've had people spit in my face, assault me, call me pig, etc, while performing my duties, but I definitely do not go around holding grudges. If I did I would have gone nuts long ago.

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OK I apologize for all my remarks But I still carry many inner scars from the sixties. I did take an oath to defend this country and the constitution which I will carry to the grave. And I will call anybody out. I just get tired of people insulting my president and commander-in-chief or anybody else who fought for this country and calling him a liar. When somebody insults a fellow comrade who was in the same campaign I was in then I get a little irate.

Unless you have been there then dont make judgments..

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I understand Ollie, and I apologize as well for drawing the worst out of you. I mean you no disrespect, I just get a little hot when people in the service hold a grudge against everyone for the unspeakable things that happen to them in combat. I for one appreciate what you and every serviceman has done to guarantee my freedoms and in that regard i hold you veterans in a higher standard of being a special class of real people. on the other hand, loyalty to all servicemen just for the sake that they served, can be a bad thing, when those you defend, might have possibly not been the heroes you percieved them to be. I can only go on what i read as can you, so this topic with the forrestal could go on forever. but my main criticism is that Mccain himself proclaims to be a hero, and yet there are a lot of documetated circumstances that prove otherwise. Again I am sorry we got off on the wrong foot, and as usual politics was the antagonist. so I will end my argument here, and just await the outcome. But if you remember, it was Obama that was called out first. Be well Ollie and seriously thank you for what you have done for your country.

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