Karaoke Forums

Eric then the problem is your bar management that doesn't charge for refills, which Lonnie, me and others stated is a stupid thing to do. Weekdays our bars average $1,000-1,500 in net bar sales a nite, triple or so on weekends. So as Joe says, to us it's moot. The problem isn't necessarily non-drinkers, it's poor management.

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You can be strange but not a stranger

This is a good discussion, and all of you bring up some good points. IMO, like abortion, it's a moral issue. If someone feels comfortable spending nothing, then there probably is nothing you can say to change their mind. You probably don't need a reason to ask them to leave, but if the law is involved, I'd suggest you make something up rather than stating a lack of spending as the crime.......

As per me earlier:


No, it's not a moot point. My main point is and always has been:
There are those of you who think it's just fine to go to karaoke and not spend money while others support your habit. And all one has to do to verify the truth in what I have said is to read the comments in this thread. This thread alone, forget all previous ones, supports my positiion that the freeloaders care nothing about anyone but themselves. And to blame the bar owner for freeloaders is like blaming the burglary victim for not locking his door.

PS: I stand by my comment about those who go to Disney go on rides: whether it's the parking lot tram, the monorail, the railroad, the jungle cruise, the mainstreet "trolley", the ferry boat. Unless one is infirmed they go on one ride or another.

So ONCE AGAIN I will ask you, in YOUR opinion, how much should one spend in a bar to be considered a 'spending customer' and not a freeloader, you obviously have a figure in mind because my $5 on soda is oviously not enough?????

A non-drinker can spend money all night long on soda - provided the bar is smart enough to charge for each drink and actually spend more than a group sharing a pitcher between them all night - even if that group of 5 bought FIVE $5 pitchers, each one in that group ONLY spent $5 each.

So which is worse one single singer that spends $5 on soda all night or a group of 5 singers that spend $5 each collectively spending more as a whole, but the EXACT same as individuals.

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Eric it is the bar management's problem and fault. You are comparing two completely different things. A property owner has the right to remove any person for loitering. Check your local laws. Try this, go to McDonald's or any other fast food restaurant, retail store or whatever and just sit there and buy nothing. See how long it takes managemnt to come out and ask you to leave.

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You can be strange but not a stranger

What if the bar is a place of prostitution?.....if I pick up a hooker does that count...

What about walking? Does one now have to ride a ride when going to Disneyland? I don't think so, some people might actually just enjoy going to see the attractions. My Gandparents went to Disneyworld last year & didn't do one ride. No not one! They enjoyed the scenery, the attractions, the shops, the cuisine, but never rode one ride. No railroad, no jungle cruise, no trolley. I do not consider the trolley or monorail a ride but nothing more than a mode of transport - Seattle still uses a monorail system as a mode of public transportation, so that would be nothing special to most from here.

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I don't think he can answer, because he is listening to some bar owner who is saying that soft drinks aren't as profitable. The unspoken subtext is that the bar owner wants people who will get drunk, lose control, and drop their paycheck on pull tabs or some other stupidity that drunks regularly indulge in.

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[color=#ffff55]Mickey J.[/color]
Alas for those who never sing, but die with all their music in them.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

I don't understand the logic on that one. If there is a bigger profit margin on soda, why does a whole bar of them not support the bar? The bar I go to charges $2 for a draft beer and $2 for soda out of the gun. More money is made on the soda because it is just cheaper than the beer. In our area, a 24 pack of Pepsi costs $7.69 at the retail store, probably less from the bars distributor. A 24 pack of Miller lite is around $11 to $13. If a bar is charging the same for both, the money is made on the soda, not the beer.

That doesn't happen here. But if people are just drinking water, hit them with a charge.

Well, Johnny, you're the only one person who has spoken up and who has gotten the subtleties of my posts.

In answer to those of you who want to know how much to spend -- how much do you spend to go to the movies, bowling, bingo, the ballgame? You know what a night of entertainment is worth.

I may have rattled your collective consciences, but I couldn't answer that question any more than I can tell you how much money to give to charity.

PS: We also have karaoke at bowling alleys here!

I have never had a problem with spending money at a venue with karaoke, but I probably spend less than some . I have actually bought carbonated drinks I dont even want when there wasnt water available to buy, just because I didnt want to ask for free water on its own.
Really, all I prefer to drink is room temp water, because ice is not the best thing for singers.
I am aware that what I am really paying for is to support the venue, or at least not detract from it, and that's cool.
I go out to dance, sing, and....well, that's really it. I dont even like the taste of alcohol.

I can understand having a problem if someone just wants to take up space and spend nothing, or with someone who behave in a way that annoys other, paying customers, but there are a lot of people who like the atmosphere (music, good sound system,dance floor,karaoke) but aren't interested in the alcohol.

I dont see why some people think that those who dont want to drink something that is actually damaging to voices/health,and , at least temporarily, sometimes judgement,are committing some kind of crime for wanting a night out, as long as we are happy to pay for our water/tea/soda/beverageofchoice.

singy thingy

The question is not what people drink, but how much they spend. Discussions of situations regarding "water drinkers" is a euphimism for someone spending little or nothing. One cannot quantify what that actually means. Examples were given of beer drinkers who also spend little. Do you think that someone spending little or nothing on a beer is better than someone who spends little or nothing on water?
Surely you don't believe that I give greater value to $2 spent by a beer drinker than the same $2 spent on water.

As my last post on this topic ever:

This is a forum of Karaoke supporters and devotees. Some of you actually make a living from karaoke and some simply supplement your life-style with it.

If you cannot see the need to support karaoke with your "pocket book", you're a sad reflection on the future of karaoke.

And for those of you who make a living from karaoke but don't see the wisdom in my extreme stance, do you really have a right to chastise an owner who doesn't treat you right and interferes with your making a living? Or how about the Karaoke company that doesn't play by the rules you'd like then to follow and have all or a partial illegal library?

Now please don't inform me that it's not against the law to spend little or nothing at karaoke. But is it right?

Good lord. Never once when I've been the dd (or just had a night I'm not drinking for one reason or another)... NEVER once had a bar owner get upset about it. There are nights I spend plenty, but some nights I've went in and not spent a dime. (because they'll usually give me my soda or water for free, knowing I'm the dd)

And not just my regular hangouts... I've been to other places and not imbibed. Of course, I'm usually with someone else who'll be buying drinks- I don't go out alone.

But I can not fathom a bar owner asking me to leave just because I wont buy alcohol. (repeatedly) There are always plenty of others drinking it up, spending money. And if there's karaoke.. I'm up singing... drinking or no.

I can see if it was most in the room doing that, but if that were the case, perhaps they should shut down the bar and turn it into a coffee shop? (that does karaoke)

I guess it's not an issue around my area, because I've never seen or heard that be brought up before. (only here on KS)


.

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♥ Laugh your heart out, dance in the rain. Cherish the memories, ignore the pain. Love and learn, forget and forgive. Because you only have one life to live. ♥

Simply do the math;

Take the average number of songs completed in a night and divide the amount of pay by that number. This will give you the "average" amount that the bar is spending every time a singer comes up...


Here it works out to about $3 per song.


Now look closely at those same singers.... how many "pop and water" drinkers are NOT spending $3 by the time they come up again?

Not many gigs can survive on just singers. But the average group brings non-singers, too. We have four in the group of 10 or so that my wife and I go with. So if you figure number of songs, amount we all spend -- yup, we make that nut. Usually I spend $15-35 between my wife and I, and we sing 5-8 times (60/40 me / her).

Not that it really matters. All of Eric's moaning, accusing, and moralizing has exactly zero chance of changing anything. What's becoming clear is that it may make more sense for a bar and grill to host karaoke than it does for a plain bar.

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[color=#ffff55]Mickey J.[/color]
Alas for those who never sing, but die with all their music in them.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

Another subset is children.

I have a very regular singer that has made virtually every show I have run for the last 6 or so months. On my occasional friday shows that start early (7:00) she has brought her kids a few times to sing. They are actually good singers, not just good singers for 11 and 13 year olds. She (and her kids) know a lot of the regulars and they are a significant contribution to the show.

Sure the kids leave at about 8:30 before there is a lot of heavy drinking but part of the karaoke is the inclusiveness of it all and it makes us all feel good. Of course they dont make my late night weekday shows but on the big shows they are part of the bar scene.

When I go to karaoke I'm very aware of what I spend, I'm not a big drinker and since my partner and I have have to travel to go to a good show together, he's always driving. We do make a point to buy soda (which has a huge mark up in the uk), and we don't sit in a bar nursing one drink, but if everybody in the bar spent what we did the karaoke probably wouldn't survive. However we make an effort to contribute to the night in a non financial way, we support every other customer, clap, cheer etc, we dance and choose songs which suit the venue. A drunk customer can not create the atmosphere that we can, they're to busy falling of their chair and trying to chat up the bar maid, to worry about the show.

We had two very good singers at our show for a while that didn't drink (one landlady was giving one of these customers drinks for free because she felt sorry for him). I'm not concerned that we no longer see them, they were demanding and only there for their own needs. However, had they contributed to the night in other ways I wouldn't have had so much of an issue with them.

Every customer can bring something of value, it doesn't just have to be monetary.

Sorry, that doesn't fly, really. For any of us who tell themselves that, I will tell you it is a copout. It is like the times in my teen waiter years when I was left a bible tract instead of a tip. It doesn't pay my bills, and people who claim I will get more value out of it in the long run are lying to me and themselves. The karaoke gig is about money, really. You have to attract a crowd.

But I won't tell you that you can't do it, or even that you are wrong to do it. If you are cheap, you are cheap. More power to you, just understand that karaoke may no longer be at the place next time you come. If you don't tip, you can't frequent a restaurant because you will get no service. You can only inflict yourself on people so many times.

There is a lot as a business owner you can do if people decide not to spend money. Raise prices. Find a way to attract a fun crowd that is more free-spending. Or cancel karaoke and try the next thing to promote your business.

As a karaoke host, you can work with the owner to find promotion ideas. I plan on wheeling out the $50.00 midnight drawing at some point or another -- I contribute $25.00 and so does the owner.

If I ever ran into such a situation, in a compatible club that has a way to collect it I like the $5.00 entry fee that is redeemable for food and beverage, myself.

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[color=#ffff55]Mickey J.[/color]
Alas for those who never sing, but die with all their music in them.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

Right. I don't care if you have an entire bar full of the greatest singers in the world, if they're not out-spending your costs to the bar, you will be out.... otherwise it's a losing proposition for the club.

I'd much rather have a club full of people who are there to have a good time and perhaps sing a song too.... but the karaoke must be secondary.

If you have a club full of "performers" who are more interested in their performance and are keeping an eagle-eye on your rotation, because the karaoke is foremost in their minds, then they're usually not spending squat.