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some people don't want to be on stage by themselves. So they get up there with a partner.

Fine. I don't want to exclude anyone! And I want to encourage new singers. It's great, especially if they're both newbies.

My issue is when an EXPERIENCED SINGER helps them, who will now be on stage twice in the rotation. Which makes it look like I'm playing favorites. Which makes me a jerk to the other regulars.

Or I tell the "helper" that they use their turn. Which makes me a jerk, penalizing them for helping the newbie. Not to mention sometimes making the newbie wait 2 rotations (2+ hours) while the experienced singer does their solo.

I feel I'm in a no-win situation.

Granted, in a short rotation (30-45 minutes) who cares?? But in a 1+ hour rotation...

I always allow anyone to help anyone without penalizing them. The catch is that the person being helped has to want to be helped.

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The Line Array Experiment is over. Nothing to see here. Move along.

I don't think it's a big deal if it happens once in the course of an evening but some people use the newbie thing as a means to an end. I've been in bars where a regular singer comes with a few friends who really don't want to sing but he talks them into putting in songs anyway that HE WILL HELP THEM WITH since they need help because they are newbies to singing. Every rotation the regular sings a solo and a duet with each of his 3 newbie friends. I know a guy that's been doing this for years with the same friends. Funny how his friends NEVER want to sing a solo after all these years of having their friend help them to get comfortable. It's not much different than the groups that come in and all sing together. I've seen groups of 5 or 6 girls that each put a song into the rotation and they always have to sing together so you get to hear the 6 of them scream over each other for 6 songs in a row. It's so much easier to tell people that if you sing any part of a song, it counts as your turn in that rotation. There are usually many more people at any given karaoke show that do NOT abuse the duet loop hole so I don't think your show would suffer if you clamped down on the obvious "cheaters". Some songs require two singers and I don't have a problem if each singer was allowed one TRUE DUET per night as an "extra" turn but when they pull it off in every rotation and sometimes they pull it off multiple times in every rotation, it gets annoying. Some people are just greedy and they never learned how to play fair......but they learned how to cheat really well. ;c(

I generally tell them it's usually their turn. If they just want to 'help' then they can sing behind them without a mic & let the person they are helping actually sing it. I find far too often the helper often becomes the main singer - sometimes so much that the person being helped actually holds the mic down so far or walks off the stage completely saying they can't do it. If the helper wants a mic, then chances are they are using their turn.

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I instituted the "one free duet" rule. You can be on stage at most twice a rotation, and that only once or twice. After that, if people insist on bringing you up with them, they have to wait to sing. And you don't get a solo.

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[color=#ffff55]Mickey J.[/color]
Alas for those who never sing, but die with all their music in them.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

whoever's spot in the rotaion the duet uses, burns that singers spot. If it's the first time, I use the first name on the request. If it's really crowded, and it's not a regular, it might accidently( )...burn two spots.......

Whenever I have 'helped' inexperienced singers, I sang so they could hear me, usually without a mic, and if with one, Id back off as soon as they were seeming comfortable /found their place in the song.

The singer needs to hear the helper, but the audience doesnt....if someone wants to 'help' with a mic in hand, singing it like they think its their turn to play rockstar, thats not helping, that's a duet IMO.

Thanks for the great suggestions so far. It's my first gig, so for the first few months I was in "try to please everyone" mode. Now I'm regretting it. And yes... I've already set the precedent that both singers have mics. Lesson learned for future gigs.

I have about 5 regulars who think they can't sing without someone else. It's more of a friendship thing rather than helping. Two friends who just want to sing together.

No matter which way I treat the situation, I'm making someone mad.

Either the experienced singer is in the rotation twice, or the newbie "can't" sing because their friend will lose a turn for their solo.

Ugh.

Can you explain the rules and then perhaps offer to help the nervous regulars yourself? Or maybe use the vocal guides if they have them? or failing that, just keep telling your nervous singers how great they are and that they should sing on their own?

I've always set the rules and then let the customers work it out. Duets take prioirty at my show, so the pushy "I'm just helping out a friend" singers, quickly start saying no and the solo slips start filtering in.

Duets -
Meaning 2 singers or 12 at once

It has to count as one persons turn and you can't sing more than twice in a rotation.

That said most people don't want to give up their turn singing solo to do a duet, so I have very few duets. If it's slow I'll usually let it slide, but for the most part that doesn't happen.

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Why is only being able to sing ONCE per rotation such a bad thing? Why should some people sing twice while others only sing once?

It isn't such a bad thing. It is making people understand that is such a bad thing.

My rule is (after I just modified it yesterday):

* One free duet (solo and duet in same round)

After that:

* Solo or group singing per rotation, not both
* No identical groups in a rotation, i.e. Esmeralda & Lisa & Laurie don't get to go out again as Lisa, Laurie, and Esmeralda or The Kool Krew
* Never on stage more than twice per rotation

So the only way you get up twice is 1) your one free duet, or 2) if you are using only part of the stage as a duet or group. And no, I won't put you up time after time if the other person turns out not to sing into the mic. Most people are not interested in "The Esmeralda Show".

We are posting this on the screen every so often, and just applying it. If anyone asks a question, we just say "Oh, we have a procedure for that" and hand them the rule sheet. People may be disappointed a bit, but we just explain that we have to be fair to everyone. If they can't handle the idea, oh well. The good singers never seem to have a problem with it.

It's not a bad thing. I do what works for me. I don't get that many duets, so it isn't a problem to add them in here and there. Some people are to scared to sing by themselves and others don't want to give up their solo turn in rotation just to help out a friend, so allowing them keeps everyone happy.

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[shadow=pink][glow=deepskyblue]. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
[updown]~*~ MONKEY BUSINESS KARAOKE~*~ [/shadow][/updown][/glow]

Keeps everyone happy except the other 15 singers who only get to sing ONCE in that rotation.

It wouldn't be a big issue except that I currently have about 5 regulars who are too nervous to sing by themselves, and it's SPREADING. So now I have to back-peddle. And learn my lesson for future gigs.

Tell nervous singer to pick one:
* friend sings with you but without a mic
* friend sings with you, 2 mics, and it's using the helper's spot in the rotation
* I will help you sing it, and "you're doing fine. It's not a contest."
* I will bring a mic to your table (and delay the others, while dropping a hint on the PA that the rotation is long and I'm trying to get everyone up as quickly as possible)

I'm sorry you are having such a hard time Randy. The fact is you can't make everyone happy. You pick the way that gives you the least amount of grief and stick with it. I think the best thing to do is stay consistant.

All I can do is tell you what has worked for me in my situation. It may not be the best for you. I won't argue that one way is better than another because both ways have been proven to work.

I believe what I do is fair because the rule stands for everyone. Everyone has the option of giving up their turn for a duet or singing alone and making their partner give up their turn. They can only sing twice a rotation period.

The fact is it counts as one persons turn. If someone wasn't singing with them the spot would still be taken up by the other person singing alone, so the rotation isn't longer.

When your turn is lost by doing a duet it detours people from wanting to do them, so it is a rare to have them for me.

Your problem is you have to many duets because of new timid singers. If you illimate the experienced singer from a solo turn because he helped the new singer he'd be mad. And if you do it the other way you make all the other singers mad because he received 2 turns. You can't make everyone happy. But after time the regulars get used to the rules and stop complaining. They realise that is the way you do it and no amount of whining will change it. Good Luck !

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[shadow=pink][glow=deepskyblue]. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
[updown]~*~ MONKEY BUSINESS KARAOKE~*~ [/shadow][/updown][/glow]

Babs, cool graphics!

Wow, this is great! I can talk (and hear) about Karaoke without shouting above the music now (first post, other than the intro)!

I guess as a patron, I never knew there was any kind of "rotation". Most places that I've been to are so packed and have so many people wanting to sing that night, that I have a hard time imagining that the KJ can keep any kind of track! Not to mention if the KJ has had 9 Jaeger's (sp?) that night.

Most nights that I've done Karaoke, and let's say I'm at the bar at 8 pm, I'm probably going to get 3 songs by 1:30am if I'm lucky. Usually it's just 2 songs. That's OK, and I, as a patron of the bar and participant in the fun, I don't mind too much if there's a duet. So as far as 'rotation' goes, I guess that means that the rotation is 1 song per 2 3/4 hours?

Most pro kj's don't drink or drink VERY minimally while hosting. I've had occasions where a group may come in & I may imbibe for the evening, but never to a point of losing wits. After the show is over, bring them to me!!!!

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I don't see what the big deal is about changing the rules that you've been using. You just make an announcement about it, tell them that it's to keep things fair for everyone and get on with your life. They're grownups, they can handle it. You'll get some grumbling from the worst offenders for a few weeks and then things will be back to normal.

And I can almost guarantee you that if they're regulars they're not too nervous to sing by themselves, they're simply telling you that because they know that if they told you the truth, you'd never let the same people keep getting up over and over again.

Don't be so easily intimidated. It's your show, run it the best way you see fit.

Many new ideas and slants on old ideas. I guess sometimes it IS worth re-hashing old subjects. I don't know if it's the "new blood" that is making the difference, or more experience on the part of the "old blood", or a combination of both?

Great ideas. Thanx