Karaoke Forums

Looks like I opened the proverbial hornet's nest. I guess in the places I have gone to, I haven't seen people just drink free water. I have seen people nurse a beer for two hours. But I am going to bring up another story related sort of to this. Once in awhile I get someone who will offer to buy me a drink if they like a song I did. I tell them I would like a Diet Pepsi. I have had these people get really upset that I won't drink alcohol, they say soda is not a "drink". I figure if I swallow something, it's a drink. This really gets my goat. Some of you are so ingrained in the "bar culture" you assume soda drinkers are getting their sodas for free. Admit it, you can't stand seeing people having fun without being inebriated. You are so ingrained in the bar culture that you can't see yourself enjoying the night out without that drink in your hand. I come from a family of those people. I am constantly harassed to drink at family parties...and these people know better, considering they know of my illness. If the place you are at is giving free refills, then that's the bar's problem, not the singers. In our town, a bar would never give away refills of soda unless they happen to be running a DD special over the holidays. I have friends that own bars and this has never been an issue in any conversations we've had about it.

How much do I spend to go to these places, well what THEY charge when I feel like going to those places. When I go to karaoke I PAY what the bar CHARGES me for what I drink. If they only charge me $1 for 1 soda & GIVE free refills, their bad - I have offered to pay for each refill, but have never had ONE actually take me up on it, so I tip what I feel I wouldv'e been charged. If they CHARGE me $2 for a soda & $2 for each one after that, that's what I pay & will still tip accordingly. If I am enjoying myself, the crowd/company, atmosphere I will drink up to 5 or 6 sodas. When I drank I would only drink 2 drinks avg $8.50 tab plus tip because I knew my limits & did not want to risk a DUI. So the cost of entertainment for me directly relates to what the bar is willing to charge me for said entertainment. If they offer food, I might eat as well, but the places I go the restaurants section is usually closed by the time I get there, and no I can't go earlier due to other obligations.


Nope absolutely no conscience rattle here. Again, I will spend what the bar charges for the drink I am drinking.


We don't have them in bowling alleys, I have seen a couple in lounges at bowling alleys. Only have seen one about 2 hours away that actually had karaoke IN the actually lanes area - but again this was over 2 years ago.

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Does "1985" get done quite often? If I was in a bowling alley with karaoke that's the first thing I'd put up!

As far as water drinkers go, the only problem I've experienced personally is in a couple of Eagles and Elks lodges I've been doing occasionally as one nighters. There's a lot of it. Some of it is because of the maturity (both age and mindset) of the patrons. But some of it is because they think that they're supporting the lodge just by being there and paying their dues. Both these rooms are currently losing money and I don't know what the solution, if any, is for them.

In my home room, with youth comes over the top exuberance in all things I'm afraid. Sometimes I wish I could slow them down. Not an issue.

And if you don't pay the parking ticket, you can get a summons and a warrant. Both are violations that you can make into crimes if you want to.

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[color=#ffff55]Mickey J.[/color]
Alas for those who never sing, but die with all their music in them.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

Our lodge ended up buying equipment, a song library, and doing it ourselves. We have a volunteer KJ (mostly not me). They didn't listen to me when they bought the stuff, so we wasted a couple grand with the (spit!) Karaoke Kandy Store. But now after they cried for help and we tossed away the stupid DJ mixer and NEO-G player, we have:

* Dell Laptop
* CompuHost
* Online downloadable songs for same-night library augmentation
* Yamaha MG124CX
* DBX DriveRack PA
* AKG WMS40 wireless mics
* EV and Behringer wired mics
* Tapco Thump pair in mono
* Tapco B18 sub pair
* Tapco Juice J2500 for subs
* $150 monthly music budget building our well-selected libary of 5,000 songs

The DriveRack was by far the best investment we ever made. I would not be there for a couple of weeks, and the EQ would get all out of wack and there would be feedback and bad sound. The DriveRack eliminated all that -- set and forget.

And they have the second best sound in our area behind my Yamaha-DriveRack-Yorkville combo. Probably even better than my all-Behringer small pub setup*.

* We are the only outfit with decent effects, compression, and monitor speakers. The good singers seem to love that.

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[color=#ffff55]Mickey J.[/color]
Alas for those who never sing, but die with all their music in them.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

Unless I missed something....other then the quick mention of the word "lodge" in a previous post, I'm not clear what this has to do with anything.

The first sentence apparently didn't make clear enough that we were failing with the paid-for KJ and selected an option that promised to cost less than $700 per month long term.

And reading it, it even follows:

Don't see the problem understanding that.

The rest was to show how we have a dynamite setup that a tyro can run, which is the usual problem with bringing it in house. No one can run it to make it sound good, since most people aren't live-sound afficianados. (I have seen some old band members claim they know sound, but they were operating in the 60s and 70s with bass and treble knobs. And newer band members are oft times no better in execution, as you can't get them to spend the time needed to set it up and train so someone else can use it. And a lot turn up their noses at karaoke anyway.)

So you give them the "DJ mixer" or the "karaoke mixing amplifier", which only has two knobs that they can handle. And the cheapo wireless mics, and the crappy CAVS library. So the sound sucks, and then the thing dies completely. The club ends up with karaoke equipment laying around and no one using it. Which I have seen at a Royal Canadian Legion and an Elks.

So basically, I didn't connect it up enough, and maybe should have made a new topic. But I will shut up now. I must be manic tonight.

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[color=#ffff55]Mickey J.[/color]
Alas for those who never sing, but die with all their music in them.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

I don't want to get a drunk driving ticket but I want to pay for my seat. I will drink alcohol the first two hours but not the rest. If there is food still being served, I have bought that but often that ends at nine. It is hard to drink coffee all night and then go home at 1:00 a.m. and try to sleep. Same with coke plus drinking soft drinks all night is a bit sweet for me. I often order lime and soda or lime and quinine and the waitress will say they don't charge for that so I end up leaving the big tip. I would like to PAY for a non-alcoholic drink but many bars just won't charge. We used to try to order virgin blender drinks and the bar maid would complain about running the blender during the entertainment. I wish they would think up some "adult" non-alcoholic cocktails that aren't too sweet and that they charge a "drink" price for. Or nuke some frozen poppers or something. I want to pay without getting drunk but some bars just don't provide good options. With the police hanging outside the bar at closing time ready to pick off the patrons, you would think a bar that wanted to stay in business would come up with something.

On the other hand, a known "water drinker" came to our karaoke show this weekend. She ordered her usual free ice water but being that she was all dolled up in a nice dress and very friendly asking the men to dance, she soon had them buying her drinks. She didn't want to drink so she took the wooden nickels as souveniers and pocketed them. Thus the bar got the money without having to provide the drink. One guy was so happy with the fun time he had with her there, he stayed all night instead of his usual one song and then leave plus he left us a $20 tip. The waitresses just hate her as she doesn't spend and she doesn't tip but she sure gets everyone else doing it so you hate to make too big a thing of it. If there was a whole bar full of her, then that would be the end but to make a big deal over one here and there seems like you would lose more in bad P.R. than it's worth.

I ask if they have bottled water. If they do, I buy it. Otherwise, I order a Virgin Mary, which as it happens doesn't require a blender. (It is also only one or two Weight Watchers points.)


As Johnny Reverb said, there is a different set of rules for hot chicks in a male-oriented bar. (At my daughters college town, the hot chicks are a dime a dozen. They want the "cut" boys.)

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[color=#ffff55]Mickey J.[/color]
Alas for those who never sing, but die with all their music in them.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

1) Since I WAS a successful bar owner, I DO understand this.


2) Eric, I have seen you vehement on this subject in a few forums.

A) Are non-spending customers a major problem for your nights in ALL your venues, or just this one?

B) If I can state something a bit more clearly, from an ex- OWNER"S point of view. If my bar isn't making money, it's MY business, and MY problem, not some host I bring in once a week who knows nothing about how I wish to run MY business. I am sorry if this sounds harsh, but it's true.

If you have a desire to increase spending habits on YOUR night, you might work on bringing in more people. This would increase the odds of more money spent at the venue, yet leave decisions about how to handle the people who are there in the hands of the owner, as it should be.

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

I was compelled to make one additional "last" entry herein, after all

One reason I am doing so is because I know from exprience that there are those of you who jump into a discussion without taking the time to read the entire thread before doing so.

Another reason for my doing so is because of one contributor who has a habit of misquoting me. This time that poster has accused me indirectly of wanting people to "poison" themselves with alcohol or drive while under the influence. And this particular poster is one who also excuses the "bad behavior" of Karaoke singers who spend little or no money at karaoke.

Per my ORIGINAL post



Please note that nowhere in this original quote did I declare anyone must drink alcohol. Also note that I suggested that perhaps the reason some establishments have unprofitable "pricing policies" is because the owner never considered the possibility that there would be freeloaders attending their establishment?

Now please note the following:
Mckyj57


I also posted this in that original post:



From the preceding it should be EXTRAORDINARILY clear to those of you who actually take the time to read a posting in its entirety that the "axe I have to grind" is with those who REGULARLY show up at karaoke BY THEMSELVES and spend LITTLE OR NO MONEY. Many of these people, furthermore, "SHOW HOP" which minimizes the likelihood that the casual observer will realize that they are freeloaders. So, in short, these freeloaders spend the least and sing the most!

Based upon this post made prior to mine, Lonman seemingly was thinking along the same lines as me!


But in additional posts of his he indicated, that he see no reasong why he shouldn't be able to go to a show and and buy a soda. I hope everyone coming to his shows do the same to him from now on!

In closing, if you'd like to blame "dumb" owners for the ability of people to sing during karaoke while not adding much if anything to the venue's profits, you are welcome to do so. To my mind doing so simple adds one more excuse to the BS list of reasons people have for justifying not spending money at karaoke.

Some of you seemingly believe that karaoke devotees are entitled to sing karaoke and do not have to spend money to do so. Some of you think you add to the establishment's profit with your very presence.

If you regularly draw a crowd to your show, it's exceedingly easy for someone to come into every show and spend no money, take a turn in your rotation and go unnoticed. So, you might not realize you have freeloaders!. In most places in Florida, however, they're easy to spot!

And how about people who bring their own bottles of water and refill them in the bathroom? I guess they do that so for health reasons? And I guess that the owner who allows water to flow from the taps in the bathrooms is the dumbest owner of all, not having consider that bottles would be re-filled from his taps?

I would think that those of you who are KJs would be wondering if there is something that can be done? Rather, too many of you KJs are busy developing contrived scenarios and making excuses for the "bad behavior" I have identified! I don't understand why a KJ, who knows someone is regularly not spending money, doesn't invite that person to stop coming and not put them in the rotaton?. If you have so many paying customers, you're surely not going to miss a freeloader! Why not honor the paying customer by disrespecting the freeloader?

And again, I am only upset with people who regularly show up, by themselves, and spend little or nothing! If that's you, I'm still waiting here one justification for you're singing karaoke week in and week out without financially supporting the venue(s) you frequent. If that's not you, why do you condone and/or excuse said behavior rather than rale against it like I?

Why would I rail against it? Doing so changes nothing.

On the other hand, doing something constructive like discussion how to deal with the freeloaders has a real chance of accomplishing something. Which is what we have been doing -- aside from dealing with your temper tantrums.

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[color=#ffff55]Mickey J.[/color]
Alas for those who never sing, but die with all their music in them.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

Mckyj57

From somone who is part of the problem I don't expect a solution. With the raling you undertake exhorting me for things I've never said, you have little or no time to say anything helpful or rational.

Until someone acknowledges there is a problem, it won't be resolved. You have always mitigate what I have posted on this subject; ignored the problem while excusing the behavior of those who contribute to the problem

And you're going to help solve what?

Ah, there you go claiming I am one of your ever-present non-spenders.


You have said lots of things, and most of them seemed to be telling non-drinkers they didn't have the right to sing karoake in bars. I disagree, strongly. And quite frankly I believe I have made logical mincemeat of you.


There very definitely is a problem. It just isn't what you think it is.


Educate people that they can't expect freeloaders to just stop doing it because it is "right". That the only way to stop them is to institute policies which discourage them from attending the show.

You, on the other hand, want to rail against these people and somehow seem to believe that will ward them off. Like some sort of electronic garlic powered by forum posts, I guess. I guess you think, perhaps that I am the grand poobah of non-spenders and that if you can just whip me into shape I can let loose my hordes and stop this in South Florida.

It is actually funny, because counting travel expenses I am certain I have spent more on going to karaoke shows than about anyone in this forum over the past three years. When I go to a place that serves food, I order off the top of the menu. And buy an appetizer for the table to boot. I bring non-singers regularly when I am not traveling alone. But I don't drink, so therefore you believe I am part of the problem.

I believe you are a hopeless case on this. You have non-drinker-phobia. Or alcodementia. Or something.

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[color=#ffff55]Mickey J.[/color]
Alas for those who never sing, but die with all their music in them.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

Per Mckyj57
.

That's your erroneous interpretation. And to argue with a fool with make me appear to be the fool

Now, in addition to the fact that you have poor interpretive ability either your reading comprehsion skills just suck or you're viscious in wanting to personally attack me? You accussed me in public of wanting people to poison themselves with alcohol or drive under the influence. I never made any such statement. IN fact I clearly stated that people don't have to do anything but spend money.

Is english really your first language? If so, I can't help but point out that your reading comprehension is something less than the high school level.

Now, your reality is Micky that you recongnize from my posts that YOU ARE PART of the problem and you're embarassed by that fact. Many, many time you have noted in posts how you tip big at bars, spend little otherwise and are welcomed back by the servers. As if the profit of the server contributes to supporting karaoke. Yeh, I know, you've explained that happy servers are an asset to a bar!

You also just offered this:


Don't you understand that the amount of money you spend getting to karaoke is of no consequence to the owner of the venue where you sing? Like with tipping, you confuse venues profit with your costs - they're not the same. And while you never denied spending in places where there is food to partake in, you continuously justify your right to sing karaoke in bars where you can't find much of anything to purchase. So, how will you contribute to the solution in that circumstance; are you planning to ask the owners of said bars to ban you?

My main question has always been and I'll ask it again - Why do you or anyone excuse or condone the actions of those who spend little or no money at a karaoke establishment, and respond as if they have the right to sing?

Oh, and Mcky, what is one of your solutions? I must have missed it!

Very TRUE.



and it may be time to just lock this thread before it turn into a personal war.

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I can neither confirm nor deny ever having or knowing anything about nothing.... mrscott

Yep & I still stand by that! A couple of "NON" drinkers that SPEND money is not the problem.
Nice thing to HOPE on anyone, guess that shows you mentality level! I sorry if your shows aren't strong enough to support a crowd with a couple people in the audience not drinking & YES YOU DID bring it up several times if you don't drink don't go to a bar. So this is a deeper rooted obsession than just a handful of people not drinking alochol - which you DO insinuate SEVERAL times!
Yes I stated in several posts why should I not be allowed to go to a bar for the karaoke if I only drank soda? Should I just abandon all of my friends that hang there and tell them, sorry even though i'm paying for all my drinks, that ericlater doesn't think I am worthy of coming in? Or should I just keep the little that I do spend out of the bar & bring all my drinking friends to my house and keep them out of the bar as well since I am not allowed in there, or do I just need to give up my medical reasons & start drinking to satisfy YOUR basic requirement for going into a bar........? So which is it? Since I no longer drink I am not worthy to go enjoy my hobby in a bar with my friends>? Yeah i'm sorry, my medical problems for not drinking are a "VIRTUAL EXCUSE" as you put it and the bars should act on that! Smartest thing i've heard in a long time!


Just like the BS excuses for people that are in a bar to enjoy themselves that do not drink??


Again sorry if you do not bring people in with you that do spend to your standards! You HAVE YET to tell everyone here what YOU think is the proper amount for someone to spend ina night:? What, don't want to embarass yourself anymore than you are already by telling people if they don't drink, don't go to a bar?


Great so Florida patrons are drunken lushes? Can tell a sober person from a mile away because they can speak coherantly? Shame on them!


Nope this one I would agree with & I know the club I work have kicked people out for this if they are not spending - even soda.


Well since it's not MY job to police what people are drinking I let the bar worry about that!


Again I'M still waiting for what YOU THINK is the proper amount to spend per night>? I personally spend what a bar charges me, if my tab is $5, then I pay $5, if my tab is $30, then I pay $30! What is the PROPER amount in your bright eyes?

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Well then you should leave the bar when you are done drinking, because you are no longer contributing??????? According to one!

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

It seems to only be a problem with a very select couple, you being 1!

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

ENGLISH 101 (one last chance at explaining what some of you just can't seem to understand)

In the TOTALITY of what I have posted, I never said that I believe that people must consume alcohol who sing at karaoke! I did indicate that if alcohol is the only available product to purchase, then I'd still like to know why anyone would condone/excuse the actions of a person who doesn't drink alcohol but nonetheless REGULARLY frequents a bar offering karaoke by himself/herself week in and week out, sings and spends NADA?

Now I have to apologize, because I finally realized that some of you are taking this more personally than others and perhaps your emotions are keeping you from comprehending the very important, undeniable, following point which I will cover once more with a different slant, I hope!

I have participated in many previous threads that have covered this topic. In all of those, as well as this one, I talked about circumstances here in Florida that get my goat. And when I talked about singers not participating financially I provided descriptions of what I have experienced, descriptions that most everyone wants to ignore except for the one person who exclaimed - "I've been in business for thirty years and never experienced what you have described". Regardless of that persons experience, it doesn't change the reality of what too many of the venues in Florida experience

Most important. I am not at all concerned about one non-spender in a crowd of 100; but rather 2-3 non-spending singers in a crowd of 20-30, and a rotation of perhaps a dozen!

And in Florida there are many choices of what to purchase aside from beverages. And while there are a few places that offer nothing more than Alcohol, they are in the minority! So I know from my over 10 years of singing karaoke in Florida and other states that there is no real reason for a person who wants to sing karaoke to do so without spending money in the process.

In spite of the actual circumstances, when I discuss non-spenders I am challenged with the following hypotheticals:

Maybe (non-spenders) are designated drivers? Maybe they're an alcoholic? Maybe they come with a bunch of other people? Maybe they have a medical reason for not drinking? Maybe they're concerned about DUI?

Well, I don't care if they drink; I only care if they spend money. And, again, I'm only concerned with the habitual non-spender who comes by himself!

So... I correctly refer to any of those previous (hypothetical) suggestions as nothing more than "excuses"! And I do so, even furthermore, because none of you know the individuals or circumstance I have described so your reasons for people to avoid alochol are hypothetical, theories, excuses not germane to my the circumstance described. And, lastly, there are other choices of what to purchase, which they also avoid!

And I say one last time that any explanation justifying not spending money is just AN EXCUSE to me.

Meanwhile, as a business-minded person I have no problem with a group of people in which one or two spend little or nothing, even coming regularly. AGAIN I'm not concerned with groups but rather with the LONER!

But I still find it interesting how many of you have excused the actions of those who believe that they have a right to sing Karaoke whether they actually spend money that goes into the owners pocket or not!