Karaoke Forums

ENGLISH 102- Learn to spell and punctuate. Just sayin' Now back to your regularly scheduled p*ssing contest .

Wow!..........Lordy......... bet you never thoght your original "water" post could be so complicated

sorry for any bad spelling, and incorrect punctuation

Thank you for your unnerstanning Boatman. It is an error-prone environment particrly when you tri to do this at wurk or is it woik, while being hurried!

We are paid to provide a service - karaoke. With our service we are expected to bring in a crowd. If we do not pull in enough people who spend money, we are canned. As we been doing this six nights a week for the last 7 years and anywhere from 4-7 nights for about 11 years prior to that, we know we get a few "water drinkers". We let management know and let them make the decision. Not once have they kicked a "water drinker" out. I guess we're a little more friendly and tolerent in this part of the world. As for singing, if you're in the bar and put up a slip, you're in. Only people who do not get to sing are abusers of equipment but we very seldom see that either.

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You can be strange but not a stranger

Timberlea, to your credit, you're the first KJ to indicate that you let management know about deadbeats!

And while what you have posted is indisputably true, your point of reference is a job of 6 years standing, which I assume is successful and has proven itself! So management has decided that they don't care about non-spending singers. I can
only surmise that the amount of money they take in makes them indifferent?

But what about a new job that is starting from scratch and you must produce ($$$) in order to keep?

What about an established gig that is just "marginal" and you're struggling to keep it profitable and going?

And what, if a new singer shows up at one of the venues as I have described, finds non-spending singers in the rotation and heads back to their "preferred" old venue? And here in Florida there are always choices when it comes to karaoke. Though the choices dwindle with each passing year!

What about the "bad nights" we've heard about on this forum when the owner wants to cut the KJ's fee because of a poor Z-tape and until then the KJ didn't realize there were deadbeats singing?

And, Timberlea, may I ask in closing what you're attitude would be to deadbeats if you're the one needing to build up a new or struggling show as I have just described?

I hate to dive in head first at this point but here goes:

My shows are entirely dependent on how many people I can bring in that spend $20 or more on alcohol.

Meals don't cut it. Food costs eat up too much of the total.
Water, coffee, and pop doesn't cut it. Normal people cant drink that much non-alcoholic fluid.
Tipping the server doesn't doesn't cut it because it doesn't contribute to the bottom line of the establishment.

It's up to me as host and KJ to somehow bring as many heavy drinkers in as I can. The show doesn't survive without them. And that's just the way it works folks.

I"m not going to throw any stones because I'm just as guilty as many of you when I go out. I have a couple of Pepsis and tip well. But at least I'm honest about it. I know that I'm not actually supporting the show, so I seldom venture out anymore.

I came to the conclusion that the best place for someone in sobriety is hosting the darn thing. That's the only place where being sober is an asset for a singer in a karaoke bar.

thats interesting because in NZ the profit margin on food is far greater than on alcohol. I recently was asked to research a loyalty card program and had we run with it the whole system would have had to be tiered. The lowest GDP was the bottle store (off license) followed by the bar followed by the restaurant and then accommodation being the highest profit margin. So perhaps the owner of your establishment isnt quite truthful with his tally
We run full a la carte btw.

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"Be who you are and say what you feel... Because those that matter... Don't mind...And those that mind... Don't matter."

Most kitchens I talk to try to keep food costs below 30% but it's been inching up beyond that over the last couple of years because they haven't been able to raise their prices to keep up with costs.

I understand that, but what is the gdp on alcohol?

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"Be who you are and say what you feel... Because those that matter... Don't mind...And those that mind... Don't matter."

Bill H

I can't thank you enough for your sane, level, calm and validating (to me) post.

I am surprised, as is Morgan, for the low food margin. Understanding how much foods costs have risen in just the last 6 months I can only conclude that your room doesn't want to raise the menus prices. When I was in the retail food business we tried to keep food costs at 20%, or below

Here's a real world story that involves one of the lodges I've been doing on the side occasionally.

Up front I was told to shake things up a little. So I start up karaoke. Up comes the slips... Neil Diamond, Sinatra, Randy Travis, Patsy Cline. These tables are just nursing their drinks. Or not drinking at all.

But there is a table of younger people who I notice are ordering round after round. They're drinking more than the rest of the room combined. I take a small break, go over to them, and introduce myself. "Please please!" I beg them. They all laugh, but say OK what have you got that's recent?

First song from this bunch: Bytch. Followed by My Humps. And so on.

Afterwards the manager was all smiles. But the regulars chewed me out big time. "Don't you ever do that material in our lodge again!" "And you keep it down so we can have a decent conversation!" And I wasn't even getting into the offensive stuff.

I"m not saying anything about your room Micky but the problems with the two lodges I work isn't whether the karaoke is a well maintained system or not. It's that the long time members are resistant to the kinds of changes that might save their rooms.

Eric, our biggest problem is being too successful. The big killer is rotations of 30+ singers. People will leave to go to a more unpopular show to sing more than to wait two hours + to sing again In fact there is only one person that comes to our shows once in a while that spends absolutely nothing. From what I can see everyone buys something.


Bill, here where I am, bars pay more for their alcohol than we would at the store. Your three beer may have the same profit margin as one soda from the fountain. Obviously you've never seen Canadians with their Timmie's (Tim Horton's coffee). People who eat food usually drink with their food. I'm not sure what your getting at when you say people can drink more alcoholic beverages quicker than non-alcoholic beverages.

Eric, you can what if it all you want, but really how many people do you get in your establishments and how many are actually non-spenders. Further, every place has a bad night once in a while.

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You can be strange but not a stranger

Alcoholic beverages are a diuretic by nature.... (especially beer)

Your body will eliminate these liquids faster than with other beverages... With pop you get full and can't drink anymore, with beer, you drink 'n pee.... then drink some more.... and so on...

Coffee is also a diuretic.

But how many do you need? Not many. They may be half the profit for the night, but it doesn't have to be everybody.

And where do those people go? They go where it's happening. And where is it happening? Where there are lots of people. That is why karaoke works.


That is simply not categorically true. Food combined with some drink is pretty darned profitable and restaurant chains make money on that proposition all the time.


Let's analyze that a bit. 30 people each drink $5.00 in soda and water -- and beer for the nursers. That's $150. Seems like you are correct, but:

* Some play the pulltabs
* Some play the poker machines
* Some play the video games
* Some play the jukebox waiting for the show
* 10 of them order $10.00 in food, which we will credit at 30% due to lower margin.

Add another $100.00 or possibly quite a bit more to the revenue, with little marginal cost. In business, we call that "spreading the overhead".

Now five of your $20.00 drinkers have put you over the top, because good tips have kept your wait staff costs down. And that's on a bad night. On a big night where you pack them in, the owner tapes $1200.00 and makes good money.


Indirectly it does. Great service attracts people, which bolsters revenue. The better the tips, the better the worker you can attract at the same wage.
It's up to me as host and KJ to somehow bring as many heavy drinkers in as I can. The show doesn't survive without them. And that's just the way it works folks.


No, being sober is an asset no matter what you are doing. At least for me it is. I enjoy karaoke, and I could give a rat's a$$ what Eric or anyone else thinks. I am welcomed with open arms every place regularly I go for karaoke. By owners, hosts, and wait staff all. They'd laugh in his face if he suggested they should eject me or look down on me because I don't drink.

If karaoke ever disappears to a large degree, then some self-examination might be required. But if anything, it is on the upswing in my little part of the world. And I can go anywhere and find karaoke, so it hasn't gone byebye elsewhere either. We basically have jumped on the problems of one apparently-troubled karaoke host who has a resentment against non-drinkers. If he was trying to troll, he reeled us in big time!

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[color=#ffff55]Mickey J.[/color]
Alas for those who never sing, but die with all their music in them.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

[quote="ericlater @ Tue Nov 11, 2008 1:39 am]
1) ......... "SHOW HOP" which minimizes the likelihood that the casual observer will realize that they are freeloaders. So, in short, these freeloaders spend the least and sing the most!

2) And how about people who bring their own bottles of water and refill them in the bathroom? I would think that those of you who are KJs would be wondering if there is something that can be done?


3) And again, I am only upset with people who regularly show up, by themselves, and spend little or nothing! If that's you, I'm still waiting here one justification for you're singing karaoke week in and week out without financially supporting the venue(s) you frequent. If that's not you, why do you condone and/or excuse said behavior rather than rale against it like I?[/quote]


1) Show Hoppers are not limited to non-spenders, but DO include those who try to sing more by moving from show to show. That IS handled by the Karaoke Host, and can be done by having a fair, first come/first serve rotation. Come late/sing less. No inserts.


2) Not sure about Florida, but in NJ, you will be hard put to find a venue that allows people to BRING IN their own beverages, but again- up to the OWNER, not the host.


3) While I agree that someone who doesn't spend, doesn't bring friends, and is a regular, may SEEM worthless, I can attest to the fact that this is not always the case. First, and again, these sorts are a rarity for me. I know TWO.

Second, one of these ended up NOT. Though he always comes alone, I found out that he does a lot of behind the scenes promotion for my shows, because he like how I do them. When I get a new venue, he's e-mailing everyone. He just likes to sit alone. I only found this out by accident.

So, in repetitive redundancy, it just ain't a problem- too rare. You might also cause a lot of negative advertising. You might be tossing someone who has actually been doing you some good, whether you know it or not. It's the OWNER'S responsibility, not the host's.

Sorry Eric. You're stuck in a venue full of cheapies, and it aggravates you. Next venue.....

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

$1200 is an off night in our room that seats around 80. We average over $1500 and often go over $1800.

This is just my room I'm talking about. It's the only experience I've got. But the meals in our blue collar place average maybe $7.50, and to serve any more than is already done would require bulking up the kitchen staff, which would cut further into meal costs. It is cheaper to add a bartender (there are two during karaoke) than to add a prep cook and second line cook. They don't work for minimum.

Food just costs more to do.

Anyway I've given my side to this and that's all I've got.

Bill, you obviously have no idea of meal costs. Like Morgan said the cost of a meal is about 30% of the retail price. Alcohol is considerably more. For example the cost of a bottle of beer here to a consumer going into a liquor store is $2.50. An establishment pays more due to various other costs and taxes. But taking the cost of $2.50, it sells on average of $4.00 - $4.50 at the bar. The cost as you can see is over 50%. Soda on the other hand cost maybe .50(that's for a can or bottle, considerably les for fountain) to the bar and sells on the average of $2.00, a cost of about 25%.

Coffee and any sodas containing caffiene are also diaretic. You drink enough of any beverage and the bladder will want to empty.

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You can be strange but not a stranger

My two bar venues seat ~40 with fire capacity of 85 or so -- whatever fits. The point is that karaoke makes venues money because people party where there are other people. Karaoke draws in enough extra people to give the place an edge on the places that have nothing.

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[color=#ffff55]Mickey J.[/color]
Alas for those who never sing, but die with all their music in them.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

People if your venues are making a profit and the management/owners are happy, then what is the problem?

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You can be strange but not a stranger

Let's face it, it is a problem for some venues. It has been discussed on the forum many times. If you have an over abundance of loners who don't spend, it will hurt business.

I'm not sure how to remedy the problem, but I can see it being a problem.

I liked that Bill did what he could by encouraging the drinkers to sing and have a good time.

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