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(Note to self, leave topics around politics & religion alone...)

Ok, I can certainly see, and agree with your point. Life would certainly be a lot easier to survive, and raise a family making 100,000 per year. Can't say I'm there, but I certainly hope to be there. Do I think about higer taxes, absolutely.
When I was younger, I was struggling to go to college full time, and work part-time. Living on less than 10k a year was difficult, with all income going to food, gas, and housing. Not much of a life at all. No social activities, and credit card bills climing higer and higer. However, after four difficult years, I was fortunate enough to graduate, and find a decent paying job in my field. After the first full year of working, I had paid more in taxes, then I ever earned in any year in my past. And I still owed 'Uncle Sam'.
Unfortunatly, taxes will always be here, in some form or fasion. The question is, how do we react to the situation?
Personally, I didn't want to struggle my whole life, so I sacrificed 4 years (for others, it may be more, depending on circumstances)... to ensure an easier life, for me, and my future family.
Now we just assume that there are jobs, to keep us all employed.

- Michael

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"You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves."
-Abraham Lincoln

no michael i wasnt putting down your point, i was just looking at the numbers in a different way. Thank god for the rich that have that much to give. I have always respected the ones like warren buffet, who constantly feels like he needs to give more. Congrats on your hard work to get out of your rut. Im looking for the same miracle and i am willing to work harder for it, but i live in a small town and for personal family reasons, i am really stuck here for awhile. i am glad you threw that chart up because I really wasnt aware of how much the rich peoples tax adds up to. Like you said though, taxes are what they are and we really dont control them as much as we think. But again congrats on your efforts to provide for yourt family

you also bring up a good point, we need to make school much more affordable to those who really want to better themselves. I know, i paid back a student loan for years.

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Gladly helping Kappy to become cyber immortal !!

Thanks. I hope your miracle comes along soon. And I can certainly understand staying put for personal family reasons.

I really wish there was a solution to all of this, but how to find a balance in the middle, where people who actually try, and work hard, reap the benefits they deserve?

I guess the thing that gets me riled up the most, is seeing those people pull into the government offices, to collect their welfare check & free cheese, in a new Cadillac, or 50k SUV, suckin' down gas... I don't think our taxes should be payin' for this...

Oh, and I'm still payin back those loans, taking advantage of the low interest rates. But Visa, isn't so friendly...

- Michael

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"You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves."
-Abraham Lincoln

Dude, I was SOOO ready to say something about this.

GM says they spent over a BILLION on this aspect of their business. The GM CEO went on record not long ago saying the worst mistake the MAYBE ever made was crushing the EV1s.

Now they're dumping a crapload of money into their Chevy VOLT, and other hybirds... why not release and remanufacture the EV1? This was based on a 1996 plan that WORKED.

The problem is, it worked WAY too well.

And there are people who are now going to buy the Tesla, VOLT and other types of electric or hybrid cars... paying SERIOUS money for them.

People DO want them. But when the big three convinced themselves that Americans want the big luxury cars, SUVs and trucks, they stopped listening to the working man, because MANY of us still long for the small economic car.

When I worked for Freightliner in Portland, we had a huge town hall meeting with the head of Daimler-Chrysler. He asked for questions and eventually he called on me. I asked when they were going to release the Smart Car over here. It was very successful in the UK. He said that they had no plans to do so, as most Americans don't want those smaller cars.

The silence in the room was deafening.

I told him and the rest of the room "you may believe that to be true, but speaking on behalf of commuters for the whole country, you couldn't be more wrong. Why do you think small cars are purchased from foreign manufactures, such as Kia, Toyota, & Mazda. Because Ford, Chevrolet and GM ALL have given up on these in favor of the supposedly safer larger vehicles. We DO want those economical cars."

I sat down to a THUNDERING roar of applause, and the townhall meeting quickly was ended. They also put a stop to further questions with OTHER townhall meetings. I stopped going not long after that.

Ford had a THINK CITY model that was very similar to the Smart Car. They sold it off, and now a Norweigan company is going gangbusters with it.

Enthusiasts are making their OWN electric and hybrid cars now with greater numbers than ever before.

They're TIRED of the manufacturers not listening to them.

And now they want a BAILOUT???

if you want to make the taxes more fair, then get rid of the majority of the tax write-offs. AND the top heavy IRS. Most government jobs too!

I also feel that any company's managers should make NO MORE than their top hourly wage earner. The pay for upper management is what kills most companies, and forces them to downsize and move jobs overseas... because it's not your $27 an hour plant worker... it's your ton of $75 an hour managers!

When former president Clinton can go around on speaking tours and command and receive $250,000 to speak for ONE NIGHT (about twenty minutes) you know we're paying people too much derned money!

So well in fact that those who purchased the Toyota RAV4-EV in the early 2000's are still driving those vehicles after 100,000+ miles with the original NiMH batteries... the very same NiMH batteries that GM said wouldn't work in an electric vehicle. Of course if those RAV4-EV owners ever do need to replace their batteries, they will have to find an alternative to the NiMH, or wait until 2015. And that is because GM used their great business skills to sell the patents for the NiMH to an oil company, which immediately turned around and sued Toyota, forcing them to stop development and production of the batteries.

Oh, and wasn't it GM who bought the California's electrified tram system and promplty scrapped it in favour of oil-burning public transport?

Looks like GM has been looking after the interests of the oil companies for quite a while... A very good reason for them to receive the bailout they want!

I've been driving VW diesels for 15 tears that get 50 mpg, and still do. I had fixed up a Passat wagon, (5 speed) for my wife that got 56 mpg for us on a trip, the only problem is diesel is higher at the moment. I have the big guzzlers too, but they stay parked unless there is a specific need such as towing a trailer........Ron

Jayvan, good point. Thats all I'm saying. If the rich pay their fair share without the loopholes, thats all I would expect, and want.
I don't know why it's so difficult for most to agree on such a simple concept. Some want the rich to pay thru the nose just because they are rich, which is wrong imho. I think Buffet sounds level headed and like a good person who realizes that he has a certain responsibility. Remember the statement from the "queen of mean" in N.Y. "only the poor people pay taxes".
I like the quick math DD did, I was kind of thinking that, but that helps put things in pespective......
I know there are people educated in economics on this board who are being very quiet here.

Ron my education in economics comes from a stepfather that survived the depression of the 30's. There are survival techniques that cope with lack of cash. With all the laws and regulations that have passed since then they are illegal. In fact if I got caught killing a chicken for Sunday dinner I would probably be arrested for animal abuse or murder. It is total insanity. The pendulum has swung all the way to an extreme and it is destroying this great nation and the squeakers have it divided right down the middle.t

We need to go back to the old ways for self survival and survival as a nation. Go visit oldtimers in rest homes and ask them. They will tell you what to do and how to survive. Any tribe that ever flourished listened to their elders. Now they listen to the lies on TV Do you realize all those that won in the elections were the ones that spent the most on TV adds? They have their hidden agendas and do not care about this nation or anybody else and could care less about downstream consequences.

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Even people that don't pay federal income tax, pay taxes. They pay sales, and corporate income tax when they buy something....to name a few.
Now you can be like Joe the plummer, and gripe about any form of socialism, yet receive welfare, not once but twice, and some people make you a hero. We all enjoy socialism in forms that suit us, and when they benefit us......

"Downstream consequences" thats one of my favorite terms referring to BOTH demorcrats, and republicans spending this country in oblivian for the past 30+ years. They never cared about the downstream consequences, only their own agendas while in office. People here could go on forever about which party is to blame for this mess, but both partys are just as guity.I could go on and on, but whats the point, it's only gonna make me want a drink, and it's time for me to get ready for work.
As far as listening to my elders, there's nothing I love more. Actually, I better step it up, as I'm getting closer to elder myself. One of these days Ollie, the wife and I might head to Colorado and do some real life "bar stool economics" in person.

I personally think it's horrible that a healthy, able bodied man would be on welfare, how disgusting. My mother raised my brother and myself working in cold meat houses for minimum wage with no finacial help from anyone, certainly not my father. Any kind of welfare would have been unthinkable, but thats just how she feels, and I feel the same way to a point. I wouldn't want the children of a single mother going hungry, of course not. But for a healthy man, thats horrible in my opinion.It doesn't look like Joe missed a meal, he probably ate better than the rest of us who work our arse off.

Greeley Colorado would prolly be boring to a lot of people on here but if you yearn for small town, relaxed, still America and old fashioned folks you or anybody here will be welcomed not with formal red carpet but as family.

Do it while you can afford it. I would love to go to other gigs on this forum and meet people but when on soc sec. it is harder. If it wasnt for gigs I would be hurting.

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ya gots to know you are on my list of must meets Ollie xxx

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"Be who you are and say what you feel... Because those that matter... Don't mind...And those that mind... Don't matter."

thats exactly what im talkin about. Its not fair that anyone should be grossly overpaid over their employees. I dont care how hard you worked to get there, if you aint working hard now, the guy who is should recieve some compensation for his sweat.

and thanks for the info on hybrid cars. It was very informative !


bout time they named a car after a kick (@$%&#!) band

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Gladly helping Kappy to become cyber immortal !!

Well Dumbdrums, we could set everything up like Cuba where every person (from a doctor to a street cleaner) each get accomadations, a ration card, and the equivalent of $15.00 (fifteen) US a month. That should make you happy.

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You can be strange but not a stranger

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Gladly helping Kappy to become cyber immortal !!

Say what ya want, Tim, but when you bust your buttsky at a civilian job and fnd out what the top earners are making, it gets very frustrating. Seeing jobs going overseas... VERY frustrating. Having to call someone for technical support and then talking to someone that says their name is "Bob" with an Indian accent???

VERY frustrating.

And the top execs cut themselvs fatter checks for bringing the bottom line down yet again.

Viva La Revolution!!!

Psttt, Mickey, I SAW what ya said! !

I like cars. I should be able to own whatever I like, whether it's a sports car or a hybrid or a luxury car or a economical sedan. I've pretty much owned them all except of course the hybrid. Maybe in the future. To me, nothing sounds like pure joy than the sound of a high performance V8 at full song. It's available to me, I can afford one and I've owned several. Everybody beefs about the huge SUVs that the American car makers have foisted on us, but those same makers make small economical cars too. We own a 2007 Chevrolet HHR, a 2006 Ford Focus and a Scion xB. All reasonably economical cars. The entire list of my past cars will be shown later. My point is freedom to buy what you like, whether it be a Ferrari or a Smart car.