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True although the first income tax was levied by the Union government during the Civil War.

Do you even see how irrational these two statements sound?


I would state this a little differently. The rich have employed (not exploited) the average american for years. Has a poor person ever given you a job?

Taking for granted that you define "most" as greater than half, the top 5% of earners are carrying 60% of the load. Hardly middle class.


Obviously.

I believe that you are talking about a National Sales Tax and not the Flat Tax, personally I think that either would be an improvement over the current code.

It is the move away from capitalism and towards socialism that has allowed these events to take place. A capitalist system would the allow these companies to die making room for someone with better ideas to take their place.

[quote]I would state this a little differently. The rich have employed (not exploited) the average american for years. Has a poor person ever given you a job?[/quote

we are not given jobs...we earn them. You must admit that big businesses are exploitive though. I mean they exploit foreigners, and were the Government not to have a set minimum wage you can be sure that they would exploit the American labor force as well. I cant believe that you dont see how this nation was built on the backs of the average worker. All the buildings and railroads and highways to this day are built on the sweat of the paycheck to paycheck guy. And I still see them being exploited by all the layoffs that are happening..

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That is not the way I see it. You are given a job, but you earn the right to keep working at the job by your productivity. Yes, this country has been built on the sweat of the middle class people, but it has been funded by those who write our paychecks! If they dont have the money to pay you, because they have been too heavily taxed, then we all lose! That is the way I see it, not that it really matters. I think too many people think they are owed something for nothing. Not that I think you are that way Mikey. We just have a lot of people in this world who would sponge off of the government every chance they get. There are many people who complain about the wealthy making money when they would rather do nothing or do as little as they can get away with. I realize that we are in trouble in many areas of our country with lay offs and people out of work. Here in my area, it is exactly the opposite. We are building and growing as fast as we can. If a man wants to work, he can! I can also say that in times past when things were not so good here, the attitude of people where I come from has always been, do something, get a job anywhere you can, make your own way, and pay your own bills. No body is going to bail you out. Again, just my personal feelings on the matter, not worth anything to anyone but me. I just wanted to rant and rave for a minute! Thanks for letting me butt in! --Mike

One more thing. Paris Hilton, does have a right to her wealth. It is called inheritance. Your kids will have the right to inherit what you leave them. Why would you try to deny her from what is rightfully hers. No she did not earn it, your kid will not earn what you leave him either. That is another ball game all together, and I am definitly not a fan of Paris Hilton. I just think she has a right to her family fortune when the time comes. Most CEO's get their jobs because they have paid a price to get where they are. They are well educated and there is a price to attain that education. Maybe they have used their ability to persuade their employers to put them in better positions than they started with, a good CEO will posess the ability to persuade others. They must have this ability if they intend for a company to follow them. I think too often we are trying to beat a horse to death and we negelect to place blame where it should go. I feel for those who are not fortunate enough to have attained high paying jobs. It is a fact, there is help for those who wish to go back to school to get the education, however, there will be a price to pay. Your family will suffer somewhat while you go to school. Everyone may have to work 2 jobs to get by until you have the education needed to get the better job.

My wife and I both work. We do what we have to so that we can live comfortably.
I have a good job where I never break a sweat. I am inside all day long. I have a desk and I am always comfortable. I dont make a huge amount of money, but I had to pay a price to get where I am at today. My daughter had to suffer for a couple of years so that I could go finish my certification process. Once I had done that, things began to change. I got married again, and my wife works at a job that has long hours. She works different shifts. She is in a management position, but it is not one that I would want to do, but she is making real good money for the kind of work she does. I am proud for her and I encourage her as much as I can. She has much less education than me, she is a woman, and she makes almost what I make. If we needed more money, we would go get more work. Child care issues are always a problem. You do have to spend some money sometimes to make money. Unfortunately for you, my friend, you have a family and need day care. My brother and sister-in-law have been in the same boat for quite a while. What they found out was that there comes a day when you dont need the day care any longer and that money ends up used somewhere else. Again, just my 2 cents worth, and that is not much! --Mike

One more thing. Paris Hilton, does have a right to her wealth. It is called inheritance. Your kids will have the right to inherit what you leave them. Why would you try to deny her from what is rightfully hers. No she did not earn it, your kid will not earn what you leave him either. That is another ball game all together, and I am definitly not a fan of Paris Hilton. I just think she has a right to her family fortune when the time comes. Most CEO's get their jobs because they have paid a price to get where they are. They are well educated and there is a price to attain that education. Maybe they have used their ability to persuade their employers to put them in better positions than they started with, a good CEO will posess the ability to persuade others. They must have this ability if they intend for a company to follow them. I think too often we are trying to beat a horse to death and we negelect to place blame where it should go. I feel for those who are not fortunate enough to have attained high paying jobs. It is a fact, there is help for those who wish to go back to school to get the education, however, there will be a price to pay. Your family will suffer somewhat while you go to school. Everyone may have to work 2 jobs to get by until you have the education needed to get the better job.

My wife and I both work. We do what we have to so that we can live comfortably.
I have a good job where I never break a sweat. I am inside all day long. I have a desk and I am always comfortable. I dont make a huge amount of money, but I had to pay a price to get where I am at today. My daughter had to suffer for a couple of years so that I could go finish my certification process. Once I had done that, things began to change. I got married again, and my wife works at a job that has long hours. She works different shifts. She is in a management position, but it is not one that I would want to do, but she is making real good money for the kind of work she does. I am proud for her and I encourage her as much as I can. She has much less education than me, she is a woman, and she makes almost what I make. If we needed more money, we would go get more work. Child care issues are always a problem. You do have to spend some money sometimes to make money. Unfortunately for you, my friend, you have a family and need day care. My brother and sister-in-law have been in the same boat for quite a while. What they found out was that there comes a day when you dont need the day care any longer and that money ends up used somewhere else. Again, just my 2 cents worth, and that is not much! --Mike

i see what your saying, but I know that all my jobs I have ever gotten, I beat out other applicants either by my education or my experiance..i see that as I EARNED that job....which comes first ML the chicken or the egg, when a boss pays you isnt it out of the money you earned him by working for him? He couldnt write any paychecks to his workers if they werent providing a service to him first. Let them fire all the auto workers and see if the CEOs can even write a check for milk...I am shocked at so many of you peoples opinions. you seem to all like to glorify the wealthy and completely look down on the working force. This whole country was built on hard work, the hardest usually coming from the less paid. think about that next time you well to dos go out to eat that meal that yiou dont finish which was slaughtered, shipped, prepared and served to you by those meaningless lower class people..if it wasnt for us, the wealthy would have to learn how to use all those appliances in their houses that their servants know how to use...

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you need to look around ML, this country does not work on the "diploma=jobs" philosophy. I graduated in the top 1% of my high school class. I test out at a 126 IQ and i can play music like nobodys business. I am the best at what I do. Unfortunately, I am trapped in a small town, because I love my son and I will NOT leave his side just to see him get all messed up emotionally like so many people do to their kids to selfishly serve themselves. My sons mother refuses to leave this town (we are seperated) so I have no choice but to work a job that puts me in a different class than i deserve to be. I do the right things and i work hard and yet here i am arguing for the lower class. So you and all of those with the "work hard and you can be rich like me" people know that in my mind you all are wrong. Life is a journey of mysterious turns and twists. If you are wealthy, consider your path is smooth and count your blessing. Some of us were dumped on a bumpy dirt road. Paris Hilton is a terrible example of privilage. She could have killed somebody with her partying driving skills and her high class BS. Someone like that should only get someones money if they are the last heir. I hope it all goes to Nikki when their parents die.Paris doesnt have a "right" to their wealth, rather her parents have the "right" to leave it to her..
i understand a lot of successful people have worked hard to where they have gotten, but there are a lot of society "shoe ins" that get left behind too.

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you are a wise man though ML!...and thats my 2 cents

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Dumbdrums, now I understand why you are bitter against the world and your lot. But then nothing horrible ever happens to other people. I've been through hell and back (and no I will not discuss it on a public forum) but I've taken lessons learned and the bad crap and make it worth something. It would have been easy to blame everyone and feel sorry for myself and wallow in misery but I'm made of better stuff. maybe you should try a search.

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You can be strange but not a stranger

it seems like everything you post here is wallowing....

Glad you liked my story, i knew you were an insensitive person...i kinda figured you had a bad life too, since your profile pic looks like a mug shot..
ill bet ive accomplished a lot more in life than you have..you dont tell us your story, cause you got no story to tell. you are a bored single middle aged man with no social life and you have a creepy fetish for bashing our government when you arent at a Leafs game. whats to tell?

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that was insensitive.....even for me Im just messin with you Tim, I seriously dont know why you spend so much time analyzing all the negative things going on in our country, but i certainly dont want to get into a pissing match over who had the worst life..i hope all ends well for both of us.
im leaving now, so I just wanted you to know that.

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It is true that companies can and will take advantage of the worker (how much they do is dependent on what they can get away with, whether it be low wage, outsourcing, or even points of legality like insurance, breaks, paid or not paid vacations). There are the few decent employers and those are now struggling to make profit on top of paying insurance, pensions etc.... As an Automotive historian, we can see when Henry Ford initiated the $5 a day pay rate when all other automakers were paying their employees under $2.50 a day. Henry Ford made few friends doing that in the industry. However, during the days of labor unrest, Mr Ford had his security thugs under the authority of Mr Harry Bennett, disrupt worker strikes.

Is there some hidden message there, Blue?

Wow, another interesting thread. I need to read those back pages since I last past here.

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I can neither confirm nor deny ever having or knowing anything about nothing.... mrscott

I saw that you had posted last here Jian, and I thought, oh no, another locked thread. Then only to see that you want to go back and read it all We might not all agree, but everyone here is playin pretty nice. Maybe I shouldn't break out the beer yet though......

Enjoying it all anyway......thanks

Ok I just got here. Wats the subject?

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