Karaoke Forums

Not trying to shame Fred at all. And I believe him as well.
It's a tough spot to be in.
But to perpetuate something because "that's the way it is" doesn't make it right.
And it DOES affect me and all kj's out there.
His town won't pay so the next gets on board with that, too.
Next thing you know, there goes the paying gig.
And yes, it's worth what someone is willing to pay, but if I can get it for free, why would I pay?
Seems you're missing the point as well.
You have to MAKE it worth something!
Don't just GIVE it away!
Why buy the cow if you can get the milk for free?

But my point is that change IS possible, not some fantasy.
All it takes is people to get on the same page.
How do you think minimum wage laws and work week laws came into effect?
The wage law fairy didn't just drop on by and wave her little magic wand, you know.
People all got on board, even when others said it couldn't be done.
Yes it took work and sacrifce, and I'm not saying it's likely that everyone will participate, but if presented in the right way with enough of the entertainers on board, it COULD happen.
But don't just dismiss it as not possible.
IT IS POSSIBLE!

If he was relying on it for his livelihood, he might do that. But he chooses not to fight that battle, and I for one don't blame him. He wants to sing karaoke, and there are no good places to do it, because the town will not support it. So he is providing one for himself. I understand this, because I am largely in the same situation. I choose to drive distances and travel around to get my fix. If I didn't have the time and resources to travel, I might be doing the same thing Fred is. To some extent I am, because I donate my technical expertise to my service club so they can have great-sounding karaoke that can be run by a volunteer. I run one volunteer show a month as well there. So I can have a place to sing and be heard, where they have heard of monitor speakers, compression, and decent reverb units.


Changing the labor laws in the industrialized world was a centuries-long struggle by millions. You are equating it with a competitive entertainment business. And what you have stated, in that context, has essentially never been done. I will still call it impossible. If you can prove me wrong, do. Call me when you get the first hundred thousand people enlisted.

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[color=#ffff55]Mickey J.[/color]
Alas for those who never sing, but die with all their music in them.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

SERVICE CLUB = NOT FOR PROFIT

Great job!
And as for the other, I used it as an example only of what can happen when peoole are committed to a cause, albeit an extreme one.
Was just trying to drive my point home.
We can agree to disagree.

We are in some ways. We like to profit so we can donate more service. We used to pay a karaoke host $175.00 a night, and would have continued to do that if he had made us a profit. We were losing money, so we brought it in house. Now we make money and invest it in music. And have some really nice karaoke sound to boot.

But I wouldn't have a problem if it was a bar, presuming they made the same kind of accommodations. That is unlikely to happen though -- I would want to be paid well for dealing with drunks. At my club, that sort of behavior is not tolerated.


That level of commitment will be hard to find in karaoke. You have made some valid points, though, and I value the discussion.

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[color=#ffff55]Mickey J.[/color]
Alas for those who never sing, but die with all their music in them.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

And to think I thought slavery was oulawed. Continuous work for no money to me is slavery.

Fred for every Beatles that make it, how many don't? Those who do not but fill a clusb, do they not deserve to be paid for their labour, even if it's a labour of love?

And given this economic crisis, what would you imagine would happen if all entertainers did their jobs for free or other trades people for that matter?

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You can be strange but not a stranger

I think everyone is getting carried away here. I honestly reckon that Fred started to work for free as a Loss-leader,ie to prove to the Bar owner that he could make it work,but now,possibly because of poor business skills,or just the fact that he is scared to re-negotiate with the bar owner(In case he loses the gig he loves),he is stuck working for free. Those of you accusing Fred of under-cutting you,costing you work etc are jumping the gun. I honestly think that all that has happened is that Fred has "Dug himself into a hole"...

No, the hole was already there. Someone else dug it and he jumped in.
It's too bad, really, but apparently venues in his area won't pay for entertainment because previous entertainers undercut each other to the point that now they can't get paid.

You would be dead wrong. I was here when Fred was talking about starting this gig and watched him walk through getting his gear, his library, and software. He is for real.


Nope. He is what he says he is, and I can identify with him. If you love to sing karaoke, it is painful if you have no place do do it.

P.S. And no, at home does *not* count. Any karaoke host who suggests that doesn't realize what pays their bills. But I have seen them say it, and that is about as crazy as the one who claims non-drinkers don't have the right to patronize public places and sing karaoke.

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[color=#ffff55]Mickey J.[/color]
Alas for those who never sing, but die with all their music in them.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

WELLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL..........................I HAPPEN to think that what they need to have happen in Fred's town is go to a PAY TO PLAY SYSTEM. Not JUST for bands, but FOR KARAOKE TOO!!!!! Better yet in HIS VENUE!!! Why not have the owner make a little money off it for the privelige of Fred enjoying his HOBBY????

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"You know that I sing the Blues and I do not suffer fools. When I'm on that silver mic, it's gonna cut ya, just like a knife"-The SWINGCAT

Non spenders should stay home from karaoke venues. They take up space that could be enjoyed by singers that spend money -- space in the rotation, space at a tables, space at the bar, space at a kiosk. And the most pitiful non-spenders are those who think they have a right to sing in public while they could easily sing at home and make way for those willing to part with their money at a venue in recognition of the enjoyment they derive. But such people are so compelled to sing, it seems, that they couldn't possibly stay home, so everyone else supports their "habit". Perhaps addiction?

And it maybe that Fred brings in a bunch of freeloading singers, so the Z-tape doesn't reflect a need to get excited with Fred's efforts. If Karaoke does, however, provide an increased revenue stream for the owner, I cannot see how the owner can't be made to pony up money for Fred? If he stopped doing the job the owner would notice the difference. If, however, Fred has no impact on the owner's bottom line, the matter of Fred getting monetary recognition is left between the singers and him!

Apparently not so in his town. If he quit, there would be another host right behind him willing to work for free.
If that's the case, the bar owner would have to be nuts to pay anything.
Again, why buy the cow when you get the milk for free?

Go for it. You can go to Athens, and become the Eugene Debs or Samuel Gompers of the karaoke world!

_________________
[color=#ffff55]Mickey J.[/color]
Alas for those who never sing, but die with all their music in them.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

I will not dispute the picture that Fred has painted. He is there and if he says that he cold be replaced in a "heartbeat", I accept that. I do wonder, however, do the owners really feel that the kj's are interchangeable?

In my mind, furthermore, I cannot accept that there is a plethora of legal hosts who are dying to work for free that is at the root of this problem. This situation has got to be facilitated by a dearth of pirates. And I can't but wonder how long will it take before they cover the whole state and work their way south to Florida, east to the Carolinas, and so forth?

Maybe Swingcat should swing into action?

Im just an ACTION KINDA GUY!!

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"You know that I sing the Blues and I do not suffer fools. When I'm on that silver mic, it's gonna cut ya, just like a knife"-The SWINGCAT

While there are a dozen or so karaoke shows that go on in any week in my town, I was not happy with any of them (as a singer). That is why I got into karaoke as a KJ. Apparently others feel the same, and my karaoke shows probably regularly have the longest rotation in town after just over a year.

No, I do not think that I can be easily replaced by another KJ but other forms of entertainment are competitive. As for my regular bar, yes I think I make a difference on the night I do karaoke, BUT on an average thursday night I think that I add only about 25 people in the bar in addition to the numbers that would be there without any entertainment (there is generally no entertainment on mon-wed and my show is on thursday for comparison purposes).

That is not too bad for a karaoke show during weekdays in my opinion. Much more than a couple dozen serious singers and the rotation gets too long.

My estimate is that the people I bring in spend on average about $10 over an average 2 hour stay. That is only $250, of which $50 goes to booze, $100 to rent and utilities, and only $100 is left for the bartender/owner/entertainer. The bartender/owner that is his only job so I do not begrudge him that money.

If i asked for the "going rate" of $150 or so per night there is negative incentive for the bartender/owner to have karaoke. Sure I might be able to get $30 or $40 at most in this situation but that is the local economics. Considering I frequent this bar about 3-4 nights a week and spent on average about $10 a night, free drinks (all week) is about a reasonable compensation for my "value" to the bar.

Don't think that I have not thought this through. It is foolish to "value" your services more than they provide in terms of how much additonal profit you provide the bar. I knew of a KJ that charged $100 a night and did not bring 10 additional people into a bar. He did not last a month, and I am surprised he lasted that long.

Now in a different town with another dollar or two thrown on the average price of a drink, then money may be around to pay the entertainment. With my bar within walking distance of about 20 other bars, many of them low priced, expensive drinks are not an option.

On my monthly friday shows I bring a lot more people into the (larger) bar, and they stay longer and drink more. There they do pay me (after I did the first show there free).

Okay, let's see if I understand this correctly:

(1) You bring in people that spend about $250 in 2 hours. (but you work for six hours? That would be $750)

(2) Of this $250 you allocate $50 to booze, $100 to rent and $100 to the owner nothing for you.


What's wrong with this picture?
(The owner gets $200 they wouldn't have at all if you weren't there.)

Using your 2-hour model and the fact tha you charge nothing, the owner should be kissing you. You not only pay his rent but give him $100 that he wouldn't have at all if you weren't there while you earn nothing but $21 in "tips" from the same people you bring in.

Now, let's extend this to your 6-hour model:

(1) Six hour income would be $750
(2) Booze costs would be $150
(3) Rent would be $300
(4) Owner would recieve an additional $300
(5) You receive $21 in tips.

In this example, the owner gets $600 after paying for the booze and you get $21 in tips.

Suggestion:

Tell this owner that you're going to move to the club across the street and play for free for a change of pace.... after all, it's not like you're getting paid anyway and maybe you can generate some better tips.

I'll bet the owner offers to start paying you something.... if he doesn't, then he's the idiot.

just to clairify the 3 hour show (with patrons on average there for 2 hours) is my regular free show.

The 6 hour show is an occasional gig at a different location. (and that gig does pay but probably not enough to entice you "pros").

Well then for your 3 hour show you're still giving the owner the equivalent of $200 after booze costs and you're getting nothing.

A sweet deal for the owner and you're screwing yourself.

Look at it this way; if you weren't there at all he'd STILL have to pay rent and have nothing afterward... not even the extra $100 you're letting him keep.

The only person losing in this equation is you.

(1) the patrons get to sing and drink

(2) the owner gets the booze paid for

(3) you're giving him $100 (to go to rent)

(4) you're giving him another $100 because it's his bar?

(5) you get nothing...

See the problem?

Well, I've read this WHOLE discussion, from start to finish, and my thought is the following:
Why not have the bar owner give one of his regular drunks, oops, I mean patrons, a few drinks to stand at the entrance, after 9.00, or whenever the karaoke starts, and give EVERYONE that enters 2 tickets in exchange for a 2 drink minimum cover charge, to PAY for the entertainment. IMO this solves everyone's problem. The regular "patron" won't care, because he'll spend that as soon as he can get to the bar. The karaoke singers want to sing, so they'll pay it, even if their tickets are given to a friend, or used to buy a bottle of water. The bar owner is happy, because he knows EVERYONE is spending money, and UNLESS HE's A JERK, he might even be willing to SHARE "some" of the wealth with the KJ, if he should decide to ask for a "little" of the perverbial ACTION.

I still think a $1 a song charge is the way to go. You could start a new trend in the area and make karaoke worth something !

From what you've described karaoke in your area is lacking in quality shows because people do it for free. You have put alot into making your show more professional which brings in more people than other venues. You started this because you love karaoke and wanted some where to go that provided what karaoke should be. Now because you've made yourself successful you should make yourself worth something.

Do you think getting something for free is more valuable than something you've paid for? If your system is better than anyone elses in town and you run a good show people will pay a $1 to sing.

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