Karaoke Forums

Joe,

This debate is by no means personal and I can't agree with you more about your intentions and the intentions of most others. All I am saying, and you want to sidestep it, is that there are too many marginal shows here in Florida for me to overlook what you consider to be a few inconsequential freeloaders. In too many cases the few are two-three too many. EDIT: My wife and I just recounted and could remember instances where there were 4 or more freeloaders with a rotation no larger than 15!

And again, while I am doing shows again, none of them are mine at the moment. I only started doing shows in the first place in July of 2007 and stopped altogether in May when my mom died.

IMHO, if Florida KJ's view the singers as you do, they will encounter a toll for doing so. As, I noted in the "Blowhard" thread, one of the most financially successful karaoke companies here tries to exclude non-spenders from the rotations. With 11 shows a week, perhaps he knows something about running karaoke in Florida? Perhaps more than I? And while he took it upon himself to institute the pay to play policy, for you who want to leave it up to management to deal with the problem then just inform them of what you're aware of.

Then, if a cover charge or some other change in strategy is called for, the manager will have the necessary knowledge to come to the correct conclusion. Of course, if he's making a gazillion dollars already he wouldn't care; I probably wouldn't care if I were him. But if he's only clearing a few hundred dollars of profit from karaoke, observations need to be keen and timely so as to maximize all potentials!

And, more germane to the thread, if a cover charge is what is needed by an establishment, I wouldn't be against the concept because I believe that the singers are the entertainment and shouldn't be asked to pay a cover.

If, however, a significant number of the singers and their friends objected, than that decision probably needs to be revisited. I'm sure though, Joe, if the question of instituting a cover charge was to be decided by you, you probably would inquire of the key customers before you actually initiated that policy. I have found that people are usually honest when you ask them their opinion, particularly when they feel that they will be helping you make an important business decision.

Eric, believe it or not we agree in many cases. There seems to be one point that's been hard for me to communicate. When we first started this debate one of the first things I mentioned is that your freeloader problem may be regional. I have only been posting my experiences in MY region.

You have made me aware of a larger problem in your area. Harryoke works the Daytona/Ormond Beach/Flagler area, and I visit family in that area often. He has never mentioned the problem to me. Only coincidentally, I haven't noticed it on my trips there, even at those weird beer/wine only bars they have there.. .

That's the ONLY first-hand Florida karaoke knowledge I have, so I really haven't been trying to negate your problem. I DO believe what you are telling me.

The thing is, you mention 4 out of 15 singers were freeloaders. Were there other customers, or only 20 people in the bar? It's a high percentage if the singers were the only ones there, but not if the bar had 80 people in it...

I don't believe a cover will help, and I DO believe it will hurt. However, it's YOU'RE show, and you should do what you think will make it more successful. If you you wish a cover, try and convince the owner. The only thing left then is to wait and see...

_________________
"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

Joe,

Again, I'm just getting back to gigging, so I don't have any immediate issues with freeloaders at this time, or cover charges or much of anything else regarding venue economics.

The question of a cover came up on this thread. Personally, I would never like to see a strict cover as a KJ, as a singer or as an owner. You're the one who said a cover charge on karaoke singers would be like charging the entertainers. I don't see it that way. Where appropriate, asking someone to prepay at the door the equivalent of two drinks that could be applied to a bar tab or restaraunt bill is something I would never be adverse to!

As to the place with the fifteen singers (sometimes less), the total karaoke group with singers and those that accompanied them would average about 24-30 including the 3 or more freeloaders. Often attending was a family of 5, with three wonderful teens that came to sing; the parents never sang! The show was on a Thursday night and there may have been 20-30 other people at the restaurant eating who clearly were not drawn there by the karaoke!

And in the days that I attended that show I was a singer accompanied by my non-singing wife. Between the two of us, we easily spent $30 or more, usually closer to $45 with dinner and beverages (wine, Jim Beam, Soda). I finally starting making excuses to the KJ's wife when she called about why I hadn't been coming to the show regularly, as I had. She basically was begging me to come to the next show because she had promised a certain headcount to the owner. And when she and her husband ran into us at a different show, the vibes weren't pleasant. It's likely, that they welcomed the freeloaders and probably called them as well to come just to meet the headcount they had promised. Maybe they were oblivious to the economic model that they had created?

Don't know about Orlando, I'll ask Cueball who went to Harry's show tonight!. He was at my partner's show Wednesday night. It was at a sports bar that adjoins a (tourist) motel. The food is decent and I didn't notice a single non-spending person in the place.

Again, we have one KJ who does not tolerate non-spenders as a policy at his 11 shows. I think that speaks for itself about the potential that exist here for this problem.

I never suggested every show has freeloaders, I never suggested that freeloaders could have significant economic consequences at every show. I just pointed out the freeloading problem and the potential harm that could come from it!

Singers Karaoke Klub (a private club in Pompano) just changed their policies. I hadn't been there in the last six months and when I returned recently the manager apologized to me for those changes. Interestingly, he told me that the changes were brought into effect because of non-spending water slurppers who ordered tap water. Even with with them drinking bottled water, that didn't justify the space the water crowd consumed in this very small venue. They had no choice other than to make changes that would run the non-spending MEMBERS off permanently! And those changes, I'm told, worked! Among those changes is a two (alcoholic) drink minimum!

Lastly, Joe, you indicated that most posters to this thread were adverse to a cover charge. I wonder if they are adverse to the charge as a KJ or as a singer? Are they adverse to the cover charge because they don't like to spend money when they go to karaoke, or are they adverse to it because they are KJ's who are afraid that they'll lose their divas? And how many are adverse to cover charges because they agree with you that singers are the entertainment and, therefore, shouldn't pay?

This time I edited a lot out simply because there really not that much to debate about there...



1) Just a clarification? I know Harry works the Flagler/Ormond Beach/Daytona area. Didn't know about Orlano? Bit of a hike. Are you sure you're talking about Harryoke?


2) How does the host enforce this?


3) Can't answer this one, but will add a question to it: Since we never know who will end up singing- maybe for the first time- if a cover is charged, it must be charged to everyone. I don't know about you, but I don't many non-singers that would be happy to pay to hear non-pros sing.

It just seems the best way is to bring in more people. Is there a third option? Maybe an additional way for the bar to make money? Again, up to the owners.

_________________
"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

Why don't you two ..just argue with PM's instead of hijacking this discussion.
...I forgot what the OP was asking

It's been said here thousands of times...POORLY run contests piss off regulars and only draws in contest whores who spend little money in search of the prize money.
Once the contest is finished ..the whores are off to the next one. But since your owner has already RUN off the regulars he maybe trying to salvage his karaoke business by "spicing it up" with CHANGE .....sometimes change is good ..sometimes NOT. Why not trying to switching a night with your partner and see how BOTH gigs do ? You might be able to save this gig and switchback later .....

Jam you're most correct in both posts.

Some people state here, that the singer's themselves are the entertainment.

Here's my opinion on who the entertainment actually is:

Let's say, you go to Disney World and there is this great roller coaster.
You can watch people riding it, screaming, laughing, etc... Is it entertaining watching them? Sure is... but, are they the entertainment? No, the roller coaster is!

Same with Karaoke. Is it entertaining watching and listening to the singers? Absolutely! Are they the entertainment? No, the Karaoke Equipment and Host is!

I agree in MOST bars --karaoke is just a form of entertainment that he venue offers...like POOL / Darts / Video Games / Juke box etc.
That being said there are many people who like to frequent karaoke bars because they find that LISTENING and WATCHING entertaining. A good HOST is always a majjor factor in a GOOD SHOW

Alex

Your opinion on who's the entertainment was very well expressed. Simple, rational and to the point! It's like watching the ice skaters in Rockerfeller Center during Christmas!

Here's an odd way from a customer standpoint. I myself am not a big drinker and would rather pay a cover charge and be able to drink Iced tea or coke and not feel weird for doing that. I enjoy the atmosphere of a good KJ and energetic crowd that you can get dancing with a song. That's the reason i go myself, but I don't weigh enough to drink a few drinks and drive and if I lose my license, I'll lose my job...

Eric, it wasn't Harry's show. Harry was just meeting me in Orlando. We went to a local show on International Drive. The place we went to was a decent sized bar. They had a 2nd room with several pool tables, dart boards, and video games. The bar wasn't packed, but there were quite a few singers there. I couldn't say whether there were freeloaders there or not... I really wasn't taking notice of that (especially since I was there with my Mother and some friends).

Thanks for the update Cue

Hoped you enjoyed Orlando. Where was the show?

All that is perfectly OK with everyone except for a couple hosts with show problems who need someone to blame them on. They would have you drink -- lots -- and get the DUI. I say the lots because buying a sandwich and a soft drink costs as much as 3 beers. So they want you to drink four beers or more. And if you drink four beers, you are at risk of a DUI now that it is .08 everywhere.

Not to mention those for whom alcohol is poison. The solution for them? Stay at home, of course. Don't take up drinking space in *their* bar. Even if demanding that is illegal. You are supposed to feel guilty enough to do it yourself, and shame every other non-drinker into doing it too.

That's how they do it in Florida. Or so some would have you believe it should be.

_________________
[color=#ffff55]Mickey J.[/color]
Alas for those who never sing, but die with all their music in them.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

No Mike, that's not really true. I personally have no problem with anyone, that buys a Soda, maybe even an appetizer and takes care of the wait staff.

But believe it or not, I really had people coming to my show, drinking tap water all night and not leaving a dollar for anyone. If that becomes a habit (someone does it on a regular base) I will say something and when nothing changes, i will definitely not let them sing anymore.

That specific guy I mentioned above, I took him aside and told him in a nice way, that he can't continue doing this. And i won't let him sing anymore, if he does not at least buy a soda and leave a dollar tip. He never came back... nothing lost. And in this case I only said something directly, because the owner came to me and complained.

Staying without a purchase is loitering. It is legal and right to eject such a person. I would do the exact same thing were I the owner of the establisment.

I am talking about the hijack of this thread -- undoubtedly by the leader of the Jihad against the "non-spender", which is his euphemism for non-drinker -- to repeat the endless litany of complaints against those who choose not to drink.

I came to your show. Did you pay attention to what I did? Probably not. I was there one time. I ordered dinner, a virgin drink, and a coffee, I think. I can't be sure, of course, but if I recall my bill came to $21.00 or so and I think I left a five-dollar tip. That for staying about 1.5 hours of the show and singing two songs. But that would not be good enough for some -- I failed to drink alcohol.

The point is, you didn't have to police this with me. I just came in and did what I do. Most people will do the same. You aren't going to change me by giving me the evil eye when I ask for a water and coffee. If you do, you may not hear the next thing out of my mouth which is "Do you serve food? Can I see a menu?"

And I am not even apparently a good enough customer for some. I have actually noticed that vibe from some bar owners who tend bar. No, they don't want all non-drinkers because a good portion of their profit comes from the drinker who loses control. I understand that. But if you are pulling the lever on a winning slot machine, you don't kick the crap out of it every spin it doesn't pay off.

This thread was about a bar owner who chose to change a winning formula -- it wasn't about "non-spenders" ruining a gig. But here the thread careens off, talking about someone's favorite subject once again. And a subject that the vast majority of karaoke hosts don't think about much. To top it all off, it is a problem that is up to the bar owner to solve -- not the karaoke host. When it is as quick as laying in a couple cases of bottled water and charging $2.00 apiece for them, if a bar owner can't figure out how to weed out "non-spenders", they don't deserve to be in business.

_________________
[color=#ffff55]Mickey J.[/color]
Alas for those who never sing, but die with all their music in them.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

Alex

Ignore the guy. He has admittedly been places and spent little if anything, but brags that he tips big and that the wait staff welcome him back

Meanwhile, he goes on and on how he's not going to get drunk and asserts that I have admonished singers for not drinking. No... I admonish singers who think they can go out and enjoy karaoke without spending money.

There are plenty enough places that you and I know of where you can purchase food. In fact, in Florida and most places I've been, particularly Las Vegas, it is the exception when the only thing offered at karaoke is alcohol. And of course, he found food at your place and has mentioned places near his home where food is also served. But, alas, he has indicated that he frequents places where only, or virtually only, alcohol is served. In those venues, he spends little if anything!

My position is that if karaoke can only be found where there is alcohol, than PURCHASE it as does every other singer, or go elsewhere for your karaoke, or stay home! AND NO ONE SAID YOU HAVE TO DRINK IT AFTER YOU PURCHASE IT! But don't order tap water! And I also believe that tipping doesn't count; nor does the gas getting there!


PLEASE NOTE THE DATE OF THIS POSTING.


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PS:
A) I have never understood why this poster has taken my reaction to freeloaders so personally, and is always finding some different angle to respond with? At one point the existence of diabetes (I'm a Type I diabetic for 31 yrs) was one of those angles!
B) The "some buy more and some buy less" quote is a fact, but I don't want the freeloaders waiting on me to buy more so that they can spend little or nothing! I would be comfortable with the reality that some spend more one week and less others, rather than Person A spends "more money" all the time and Person B spends little or no money all the time
C) This guy is so delusional that:
There are times when he says he's a big spender and then he argues with me about how much one should spend
He implies my rants are because my show is failing. IN FACT, I have no show and my rants started back in 2007 as a customer/singer
He states I insist people must drink. No I state that they must spend money. If there is nothing but alcohol offered and you do not want to drink or spend money buying drinks for others, than stay home.
No one has a right to sing karaoke without spending money regardless of the circumstances and no matter how compelled one feels to get out and sing. It's not my responsibility as a paying customer to support another person's habit
He says I want to shame people? Yes I do! But you can only shame those who are doing wrong. I admittedly want to shame anyone who thinks that others should pay for their habit. I know that there are posters like the one I am responding to who CAN'T stay away from karaoke for very long. They need their fix.
I, sir, have stopped paying for others fixes! When there are too many freeloaders in a rotation I will go elsewhere or stay home!
If I can stay home and not sing because of freeloaders, surely the freeloaders can stay home and not sing! Wouldn't that be fairer?

Yes, I did notice that you didn't drink Alcohol. But like stated before, as long as you buy at least a soda or bottle water I have no problem whatsoever. And I didn't say anything about it, right? Your visit was absolutely fine with me. Plus I enjoyed your singing, too.

I agree with you, that the KJ has no business in talking to a customer about his spending behavior. In the case mentioned above, it happened to be in my mom's place (The place you visited). She came up to me and told me about this guy. So I preferred walking up to him myself, trying to make a point in a nice way. I know my Mom, and she gets heated very fast...

Once again, in general I have no problem with people not drinking Alcohol, as long as they buy at least a soda and leave at least a dollar tip. And even if my only choice of consuming anything at a bar (as a non alcohol drinking person) is tap water, I will compensate in tips.

Thank you. I really enjoyed your wonderful place and the great sound. The food was good, too.


And if you have loiterers who buy nothing, they should go bye-bye. Just identify them and get rid of them. But not the KJs job, more the bouncers'. Which you are at your Mom's place.


I always ask for bottled water -- I prefer no ice anyway. I also drink a Virgin mary, and other things. I usually eat when I can arrange to wait dinner that long. And I tip well.

Some might argue that tips don't help the owner, but I differ there. The better the tips, the better the quality of the help you will get. The less you have to pay your servers in salary. And the better the help you have, the better your customers will be served and the more they will buy in the long run.

Bar owners *love* tips if they are the bartender. That is non-taxable money -- they don't even have to skim it.

Basically, this is all a non-issue in a well-run establishment. If the partiers are not coming to your gigs, the real problem is why are they not? Could it be the amount of fun people are having? At my gigs so far, the house rocks and the place is jammed, knock on wood. You could sit there all night drinking water. The bartenders and waiters are far too busy serving drinks to notice.

_________________
[color=#ffff55]Mickey J.[/color]
Alas for those who never sing, but die with all their music in them.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

Perfect example last night at Lonnies in Nashville--- All they serve is beer, soda and water. I don't drink beer, had soda's all night long about five of them. Each was 2.00 and $1.00 tip for each one, so the bartender who literally walked 2 feet to get each one made 5.00 on that alone for the night and I also gave 5 to the KJ as the Jars came around. They didn't seem to mind at all, but there also was a decent fun crowd in last night so hopefully they made some money.