Karaoke Forums

I know this subject has been covered in many posts before, but I guess I just need to let off some steam. I've been in this venue since August and when I met with the owner back then, before accepting the gig, he told me he would advertise both in print and possibly in radio spots, he would have weekly giveaways, and other fun stuff we would work on together to build business. Well when we came to an agreement of terms, built on a handshake only, I sent out text and emails to all of my regulars, approximately 100 people, and all have been to the venue. Granted not all at one time, but I get most of them at least once a month, and some every week, you get the idea.
Well things are beginning to slow down, and there has been zero advertising, and zero giveaways, and he wants me to go to other bars during the week and pull people into my show. I told him that it is his job to bring customers in, it is my job to keep them there, and get them to come back.
He didn't like that, so last night it's starts out very slow. I'm in the St. Louis area and it's 29 degrees at 9 pm. At 10 pm I have 15 people in my room, and of those only about 5 singers, however we are all friends, and are having fun trying to get the night going.
I'm told by the bartender to shut down at 10 30 pm, because there are not enough people. So I make an announcement and apologize, and shut down. As I'm packing up, all 15 people that were there chose to go to another bar, and my wife and I were invited, so we all left leaving the bartender as the only person there.

I don't get owners some times hopefully no one came in after we left. I haven't gotten any calls or emails from my regs. So I guess the night was a bust anyway.

Sorry for the rant, Just needed to get it out.

Scotty Mo

It can't be stated emphatically enough that consistency is the key to success in anything you do. It's amazing that there are owners who don't get that. For example, when they want karaoke on Sunday or Monday and then cancel it during football season.

It's good that you put into proper perspective for the owner that you are not responsible for marketing, particularly when he has invested nothing. And that last point is something I would have made to the owner. I'd have told him that you'd be happy to promote the show more if he had kept up his end of the agreement

What I learned early on in this business is the importance of building alliances with the wait staff and bartenders, particularly the "Sr" bartender. Discuss with them what suggestions they have for increasing attendance at your show. They have as much an interest in building the attendance as do you! If nothing else, have them "talk-up" karaoke and how much FUN everyone is having.

As another example of how the staff can help: Try to get free drink cards created that are valid only during the karaoke show. Then have the staff hand them out on every other night of the week to anyone who even hints at having an interest in coming during karaoke! You, of course, can discreetly hand out the cards elsewhere as can the staff of the place when they're not working. You'll be surprised how much benefit the staff can be if they "get on board".

I'm sure you know better but do not do this! Your singers are your most valuable asset and you will lose all kinds of trust and credibility with them if you blatantly hit on them in another venue.

Talk it over with your most loyal regulars. What do they think of the current bar? Are there any alternatives that they like better? It may be time to move.

Don't blame yourself for a bad night. In my place since early October business has been like a yo-yo in a room that was remarkably consistent for years. Last Thursday was busy, but that doesn't mean anything these days. A couple of weeks ago I had the slowest night since starting out in there.

If the owner wants someone to go and recruit from other bars...Let him go do it!

I have had 2 other KJ's do this to me and failed miserably at it.

One of them was a KJ that I did alot of favors for, like loaning equipment when his was in the shop being fixed. I helped him with his song books and even filled in for him when he was on vacation and could not find anyone to do it. After he did the recruiting routine in my bar (mind you it was for the same nights that I was doing) I made a decision to cut him from the friends list.

One day he came to me with a serious problem and asked for help and I politely said that I'm done doing favors for him. He acted totally surprised and wanted to know what he did wrong. I politely said that I don't do favors for KJ's who come into my place of business and attempt to recruit customers for their gig just a few blocks down the road on the same nights. I said that I found his behavior inexcusable and that I was totally offended by it.

He ended up having to rent an Amp and Mixer for his gig instead of borrowing one from me for free.

That KJ is still doing business but he is no longer at the gig down the road. So the gig was a temporary one and our relationship is gone forever.

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FlipSide Karaoke
Scott

Thanks for the encouraging words. This is the reason I finally joined here, because of the great people and different groups of experience. Although I've been a mobile DJ since 86, and Karaoke host for almost 5 years, it's nice to still be able to learn and bounce thoughts off of others. I am the first to admit I don't know it all, and never will, I can always learn something.
Preparing to head back for the Saturday night show. I think I will have a talk with my regulars and see if they may know of another venue that may appreciate someone of my caliber. (a little toot of my own horn there). But seriously I have been told I put on one of the best shows in the city, and I'm proud that people think that. So we'll see where we can go from here.

Scotty I'm sorry you are having a difficult time with this bar owner.

Did he say why he went back on his word? Is he making enough money to advertise? He may be just trying to keep the bar a float. If so he handled it poorly with you. He could have told you he doesn't have the money instead of putting it all on you. You could of came up with ideas together that maybe wouldn't cost a lot of money.
I'd look for another gig out of fear you may lose this one because it's going under.
It doesn't sound like he has a lot of business and if this is any indication how he does business it doesn't surprise me.

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[shadow=pink][glow=deepskyblue]. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
[updown]~*~ MONKEY BUSINESS KARAOKE~*~ [/shadow][/updown][/glow]

This bar owner is a MORON and has demonstrated to you a measure of dishonesty.

He had a golden opportunity to work with someone who cared that the place and show was a success and who went OUT OF HIS WAY TO DO EXTRA to make it so.

So what did he do in response? Not a FREAKIN' THING!! Except to TRY TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF YOU----and like BABS spoke of---not addressing you up front about whatever the situation is.

Net result-----DUMP THIS LOSER. He's NOT TO BE TRUSTED.

BE PROACTIVE and START LOOKING FOR ANOTHER GIG.


Oh, and ERIC is ABSOULTELY SPOT-ON, ON-TARGET ABOUT CONSISTENCY.
Thing is it takes TIME TO BUILD a STEADY CONSISTENT CROWD. And it aint EVER going to happen with the barowner closing the show and telling the crowd to HIT THE ROAD!! 15 people x $25 tab/person=$325 in ring. That might have been enough to break even and even make a small profit for the nightshift. And who knows how much biz he lost from other people coming in later. IDIOT!!

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"You know that I sing the Blues and I do not suffer fools. When I'm on that silver mic, it's gonna cut ya, just like a knife"-The SWINGCAT

Hey Scott is this guy that jerked u around someone Ive met in my Karaoke adventures and travels??

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"You know that I sing the Blues and I do not suffer fools. When I'm on that silver mic, it's gonna cut ya, just like a knife"-The SWINGCAT

You've been at this for quite a while so I'm probably not telling you anything you don't already know. But be careful with your approach. Talk to your most trusted singers. Ask them what they think about the establishment first before volunteering anything yourself. Their response will let you know whether to continue or not.

If you know what I'm sayin'...

I'm off to work myself. Have a good night.

I wouldnt even talk to your singers. Cant be trusted. Some may be pals with the bar owner that you dont know about. Just quitely start inquiring at other place to find a new location.

DISCRETION!!!!!

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"You know that I sing the Blues and I do not suffer fools. When I'm on that silver mic, it's gonna cut ya, just like a knife"-The SWINGCAT

Well last night kicked tail. Packed house rotation ran about an hour an a half, almost too long. About 75 people total including non singers. Babs I don't know what his deal is he all but refuses to talk to me. Everything goes through his bartender that he calls from his house to tell me what to do. Now it's my understanding that he is going to call me today about New Years Eve, but sorry to late already booked.
Kurt thanks great advise, but I only talk to my regulars, these are the folks that have been to every public gig I've done, and all say they go where I go. I find it hard to beat that kind of loyalty.
I'm going to ride it out for the rest of the year, what two more weeks, and we have plans for a big marketing blitz starting in Jan. or early Feb. so something will come along.
Thank you all I really enjoy the replies.

Scotty Mo - I think talking to your regular followers of your show is a good way to get a feel for their views on the venue. You have a business and a loyal following of customers to protect. Once you start losing them to another bar because they are unhappy then it is your business that will suffer as well. You can always replace a bar but loyal customers are hard to come by. Your instincts are good and you are doing the right thing.

As for the bar owner that only communicates through the bar staff.....that is so unprofessional! If you do decide to drop this bar be sure you communicate that through his bar staff and not to him... Turnabout is fair play...

I have always run my business on my terms and will not allow anyone to get in between my loyal following and myself. Sometimes decisions like this are tough to make but there is always another door that opens when the other closes. A KJ with a built in crowd will always be able to get work.

We will be pulling for you!

Keep us posted on the outcome.

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FlipSide Karaoke
Scott

Wow, very strange day. I did get a call from this MORON!!!! as Kurt so accurately described him. Apparently he is not even thinking about doing anything special about New Years Eve. He just wanted to complain to me about the early closing on Thurs. He stated that according to his bartender I was very upset, and told the people that were there that I was not getting paid, which is false by the way. Yes I was not happy, but mainly disappointed that some of my regulars wasted their time to be there, just to leave.
He said that I should know when to shut down a show when no one is there. I told him this is between him and his staff, and I do not stop a show on my own, that they have to make that call. Well he didn't like that answer.
After some yelling on his part, and some yelling on mine(hard to hold my tongue). I tried to explain to him that I am entertainment, and no different than a band. Would he shut down a band or expect the band to just stop and take half pay if only a few people showed up. He said I am not like a band I just do karaoke and that I should know when a show is not making money. Well I don't agree with that, I'll listen to opinions on that one from all of you.

After all of the confusing conversation, my wife and I are going to actively find another venue quickly, I feel that this guy don't appreciate or know what to do with something that has worked.

As an aside the saturday after Halloween was completely dead. 6 people in the bar, but the bartender never approached me to shut down. I stayed all night playing music and charged him for all night. My time is money. He was upset about paying full price, and told me his bartender was new and didn't know what to do. I'm sorry, but that is something he should of handled, and not leave it on me.

Sorry for the long post, please let me know if you think I'm wrong on any of this, I have never had a situation like this in my entire career. First time for me having to deal with someone like this.

Scotty

As an aside, you never mentioned in your OP whether you were paid in full or not. Whether full pay is due a KJ who is invited to shut down early could be a thread in itself.

Now, what I am about to say, will probably have Joe C suggesting that I "eat my words" from previous posts. I have always felt and still feel that any individual singer is not the entertainment. I have always felt that a KJ is an entertainer in the fashion of an emcee or orchestra conductor that directs and holds the show together.

But to me, the essence of a show is really the energy it puts out. Sometimes it comes from three drunk females together on stage, singing separately, unable to follow the words; sometimes its a duo rewriting the words to Summer Nights, sometimes it might be a guy with a big belt buckle sounding like Garth Brooks. Perhaps it's someone like Wm Hung? Maybe, it's none of those things. What I am sure of, whatever the "it" is, it varies from show to show.

Now, when a KJ is asked to shut down and leave early when there are no singers or a hand-full of singers is that the same as asking a band to shutdown early?

Personally, I don't think that they are the same. The band is the entertainment and doesn't need anyone in the audience in order for them to be able to put on their show.

A KJ, however, needs audience participation to facilitate the show and generate the energy. What is debatable in this regard is just how many singers are required in order to define the karaoke show as being entertaining? I can justify an owner concluding that a karaoke show has reached the point of no longer being entertaining and lacking positive energy when participation is low. And that being the case, why have what could look like an unattractive, disorganized group hanging around (playing the devil's advocate here)?

If based exclusively on economic considerations, there is no distinction in my mind between stopping a band before the end of the evening and stopping a KJ.

Eric,

Thank you. I was looking at band vs. KJ from a strictly economic stand point when I posted this. I guess my concern is the bar owner wants me to decide when and if to shut down, and in my experience it has always been up to the owner or bartender to make that call. It has happened to me twice in 5 years and it was the owner that shut me down, nicely of course, but also the bar closed for the night at that point.

To me 15 people in the room was a good start at 10 pm. not great but good. The show was shut down at 10 30, closer to 11 pm. I let the ones who turned in songs sing one more.
The owner just appears to have issues with the way I run the show. He complains about volume while the room wants it louder. He complains about song choice, not my place to pick songs for singers.
He has had bands in there with much less turn out crowd wise than I bring in. I get a surprising number of non singers that just like to have fun with us. My point was has he ever told a band to shut down because of lack of revenue generation.
I truly believe we just have a serious personality clash going, no fault on either side. So it's probably in both parties best interest if I find another venue.
The way this place is arranged I am in a separate room from the main bar, and most nights we pack that room with the bar side handling overflow and non karaoke customers.
He has his own karaoke system and it is my understanding that they were lucky to have 3 singers a night. He hires me and I fill the room all but two occasions. Given the state of the economy, not too bad, I don't think. My wife seems to think that he may have some jealousy problem of some sort, but I really can't seem to figure this one out.
By the way Thurs. I got 75.00. I worked an hour and a half. I told him I charge 50.00 per hour during our first meeting back in August.

It has always been the bar owner/manager or bartender that makes the call on when to close off karaoke if it is a really off night. I would never agree to such a responsibility as it is not my place to do so.

I have closed down an hour early sometimes as a result of business being off but never that early. All I can say is make sure you have clear cut guidelines on the pay per hour thing and have it in writing.

As your story develops there are more negative items that pop up that this owner is throwing at you. It's time to go.

I would stand my ground on the "Bar Makes The Decision to Cut Off Karaoke"

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FlipSide Karaoke
Scott

It sounds like this guy does not understand karaoke at all and probably never will.

Comparing karaoke to a band is useless as they are completely different forms of entertainment.

Fact is he wants his cake and eat it too. i.e....When its slow he wants to shut it down and expects you to take less pay and when you pack the house he does not want to pay you more. However on just a few occasions when you need to shut down early he seems to love to rub it in your face. It does not work that way.

If he was thinking straight he would pay you full price on those couple of evenings that business is slow and forget it. He will more than make up for it on the busy nights.

I could see his point if the downturn was happening on a regular basis, but if that was happening and I was a bar owner I would be trying to promote karaoke or I would stop having it altogether.

Go get another gig. Make sure you have the email addy's of all of the folks you picked up as regulars from his place when you do.

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FlipSide Karaoke
Scott

it amazes me that times past a band got paid pretty good if they were any good...they packed the room the owner made money everyones happy...slow nights well the good nights have to off set those.....i guess my point is that other then the K J he's getting FREE intertainment, that amazes me that a bar owner can complain at all...thats like having band members come in all during the night willing to get up and play for free just so you can make money....so he may be out of pocket 200 r so bucks...big deal, thats no money.... i think the bar owers r getting very greedy...seems to me he hires a person/K J to sit there and bring in his intertainment for the night....thats a great rackett....i was at 1 place once where they charged 1 dollar to get in that went towards ur drink...which he has maybe 25 cents in....unreal....you are now PAYING the guy so that you can be his intertainment for the night....no wonder bands can't find gigs anymore....they have the nerve to charge to be intertainment....

bars as in any business you will find they will NEVER make any money i don't care how much they do make...always crying poor mouth, and most times you care more about him making it then he does....
its just all unreal to me....jmo

I've seen some karaoke places that have a crowd from opening to maybe 10:30, then drop down to just a few, then pick back up an hour later with a different crowd...

I'm game to shutting down and taking less if it is before halfway through the show, and they pay me half. If I make it past the halfway break, they pay me for the entire night if I shut down early. I seldom do this, though. Our Mon night gig is quiet at the start, swells at about 10:30-11, and often they're shoving people out the door at 1:30. We've never shut that one down early, though at times they'll drop down to one server on the floor and one bartender. Sad thing is, in our area at least there are roamers - people who may go to 2-3 places on any given night until they find one that is really a fun place; so, if we were to shut down early, it could be that 20 minutes later a big group comes through the day...makes no sense to miss out on that. Cheap owners....harumph. Don't like 'em. Stepping over dollars to pick up pennies.