Karaoke Forums

Hey guys, it's been a while since I've been here, but I'm popping back in. I did a search on this subject without much luck, and I'm sure it has been discussed before, but it is a very viable topic and one that should probably even be stickied.

I have been to many shows, still intending on booking my own (Just moved to Grand Rapids Michigan) and it amazes me the difference in mixes. Some places sound AMAZING, some are so so, and some just plain suck. I'd like to hear the pro's opinions on how to have an AMAZING mix for your singers that stands out from other shows.

I've talked to some KJs, and honestly I don't think they have a clue. To them, it's a matter of turning the highs up on guys and the lows up on girls. I've noticed that often times if the vocal mix is a little higher than the music mix it works quite well for karaoke, plus a little reverb usually does some justice.

That's where things can be defined a bit better. What types of reverb should you use? What reverbs work for different styles of music? What amount of reverb? When should it just be "clean"? What are the best mix levels? What are the best EQ mixes, ETC? Obviously mics have some to do with the sound, but that is self-explanatory and the least of the issues to figure out a great sound. Any other input on the subject would be greatly appreciated, as this is one of the most vital subjects to a great karaoke show - probably only secondary to the KJ's ability to host a show.

My personal set-up includes a CAVS JB-199 Premier with digital EQ, TC Electronic M350 Dual Reverb & Effects Processor, standard DJ mixer, dual AKG wireless mics, ART Tube Studio V3 mic preamps, and JBL JRX125 PA Speakers. I know this isn't the best set-up, but it is pretty decent to start and any opinions for a second system would also be appreciated or tips to improve my current set-up.

I really hope this thread starts some great conversation on mixing and I'm looking forward to everyone's input, as sound is VERY IMPORTANT.

I tend to mix to where the vocals are just a shade over music. Effects dependant on the song are never overpowering in the mix, just enough where you don't really hear them, but would really notice if they are gone - never mix 'clean ie no effects. EQ is adjusted per singer.

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So you would argue to always have at least a little reverb? I tend to favor live vocal reverb on my set-up. The tube mic pre-amps also have a setting for warm vocals that is nice. I've also noticed that if you are recording, you really want to run clean and add effects after, as the live sound is so different from the recorded product. Recording with effects tends to distort the vocals I've found. But that's a whole other topic.

What levels or percentages would be best? 20% higher vocals over music? Any other input?

I thought you were talking live mixing at shows. Recording is completely different mixing than live, in a recording case, yes, if you have the capability to multitrack, vocals dry then add all effects, compression, etc. later. For live yes I will always run some amount of effect just to break the edge off of the live vocals & help mix them into the music better.

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I really don't think that you should play with the knobs at all during the show except for the chanel volume. Some are whisperers and some are screamers after all. My reason is that it is impossible hear what most of the room is hearing unless you are in the acoustic center of the room. If you can't hear it you can't mix it. Karaoke is not a recording studio nor is it a live band situation. The best you can hope for is a happy medium. If you really want to have a great sound tweak the singer not the mixer. And that's my 2 cents worth....

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Okay, who took my pants?

I am talking about mixing at shows. As I stated, recording is a whole different topic.

Still no definitive or technical responses. What do many of you do for live mixes? I hear a lot about how BAD some KJs do, so what do you guys do to have a GOOD mix? Having good singers helps a lot, but you can't depend on that. I think that had a lot to do with the show I checked out Friday. The sound was awesome, but the singers were all very good too. Only one bad singer in the group.

What technical responses? Mixing is as much an art as a science. Ear is the most important thing. But in my opinion the way the music sounds is as important as how the vocals sound -- people rock to the music as much or more than they do the singer. If the music sounds great, it helps everything.

As for effects, I have a Lexicon MX200 with five presets I use for different types of things. I tweak the low-mid channel eq based on the singer (rarely touching the high) and change the level and eq a bit on some songs. I vary the amount of effects going into the mix as well. With the amount of singer interaction I have, it is sometimes difficult to pay attention but I try.

Which AKGs do you have? If you have the WMS40, which is what I run at my service club, that is the weak link in your chain (though I have not heard great stuff about the JRX, I am sure they are competent). If you have the 450, the high-end one, those sound great.

Also, how do you deal with effects? Inline it via mic->ART->effects->line in to mixer? With that chain, I suspect you could get some pretty decent vocals considering you use a DJ mixer. I don't know the processor, but you can probably inline de-essing, compression, and reverb.

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[color=#ffff55]Mickey J.[/color]
Alas for those who never sing, but die with all their music in them.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

Good question. Of all the karaoke joints in town, it seems I'm the only one who actively adjusts the mic mix for each singer. I'll admit, it was tough at first knowing how to make every singer sound as good as they can sound. But after several years of it, I've gotten a pretty good idea of what to tweak when. And if there's one thing I've learned, it's that EVERY singer's voice is different and, in my humble opinion, each voice has it own idividual optimal mic mix. Where one guy will sound great at one o'clock high, ten o'clock mid, and three o'clock low... the next guy would sound awful there and might need twelve o'clock high nine o'clock mid and one o'clock low. Having a following helps though becasue it's gotten to the point where I remember exactly where to set the mic mix for many sigers even before they start singing. Then when they start talking before or after singing, it's another mix all together. Now the music on the other hand usually stays put all night and sounds great until I have to play some of the Nutechs or Sava discs, in which case the music needs lots of tweaking just to sound half as decent as the usual stuff I play. Hope this helps.

^^^ Yes, that is how I have things set up. I have the WMS40 Pro set, which I'm not sure how much better that is than the regular WMS40, but they are twice as expensive so hopefully there is a difference. The reason I chose them is I like the sound of AKGs (next to Sure) and it is one of the only dual wireless mic systems I found that didn't appear to be cheap crap. If there is a 450 dual set, I may have to look into those for a second system. And your detailed response is the type of thing I was looking for, thank you.

They should be the same price -- if you paid $330-$360 for the dual set, you got a decent price.

I like the WMS40 (which I use and own) pretty well. It is better than the VocoPro mics I have used, and has great battery life. But it is a notch below the Shure SM58 and quite a bit below the AKG 450 set (which I am not sure is still on sale). If I had to do it over again, I would just buy SM58 wireless from the beginning and not fiddle-fart around with all the cheap stuff. I spent $600 on stuff I don't use and still ended up with an SM58 wireless. I gave away the cheap AS990 dual wireless to my church (for audience questions), and I have two wireless mics I don't use at all.

The WMS40 dual is used weekly for a gig, and has survived 75 gigs with nary a problem. They are a good, serviceable karaoke mic for our crowd. It is what I recommend when people want wireless but don't want to spend $400.00 per mic. They are a cut above the Nady/Vocopro/Gemini cheap mics, which sound awful.

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[color=#ffff55]Mickey J.[/color]
Alas for those who never sing, but die with all their music in them.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

What kind of 'technical' response do you want? There is no one setting that will magically work, it's based on a system by sytem, room by room, singer by singer basis. One setting that is perfect here, may be completely wrong & sound terrible there. One singer may be completely bass heavy while another singer may be piercing treble - all adjusted on the fly (despite what one says). Make each singer sound the best they can - but there is no 'technical' answer to give.

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It is hard to talk about mixing without talking about specific circumstances. Each singer is an individual mix. I agree that to do it correctly you need to hear the mix from the sweet spot in the room. That is why when I have a new singer I get off the stage and give it a listen, so I know what that person needs. I have a lot of regulars, so through the years I've memorized what works best for different people.

Another important component is the enviroment. People will sound different depending on what is going on in room. I am in the same venue 98% of the time, so I hear the differences easily. It is kind of like when your car starts making a small unfamiliar sound. You notice it, but no one else does.
The amount of people in the bar, crowd noise level, and weather all play a part.

One more thing is where they place the mic when singing. Some people smash it into their face, some stay a mile away, but most are some where in the middle of that.

Oh yeah and of course your own personall equipment makes a difference. Type of mic ect...

It is so hard to explain how I mix when so many factors are going on. If you have some particular examples of different types of singers I could answer your questions better. But my answers of course would be specific to my equipment and enviroment.

If we are talking generically though I usually take effects off of fast singing songs like country. I like a clear crisp sound on these types of songs. I don't like them sounding mushy.

I usually put the singers volume right above the music unless they are a horrible singer I'll put them at the same volume as the music, to mix them into the sound over all.

I mix a man's low voice with a lot of timber as crisp as possible without taking away from their tone. I find this a challenge. I usually take away any effects and add a little in the highs. You have to be careful though not to take away from their natural resonance.

Squeeky high pitched woman that sing flat are always a challenge. Reverb, push the lows and then volume in the middle of the music seems to help.

People who eat the mic - good luck. It is very hard to mix someones sound when they have the mic half way down their throat. Of course I'll try to instruct them to back off, but usually I got ignored. The one thing I've noticed with this situation is the volume can be turn down lower than you think. If you can pull their mic volume down as much as you can while they can still be heard it helps. It is deceiving though. It sounds like their volume is fine when in fact you can crank it down a lot.No effects on this type of person also. They seem to produce their own. Maybe it is becuase it is echoing off the inside of their mouth.

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[shadow=pink][glow=deepskyblue]. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
[updown]~*~ MONKEY BUSINESS KARAOKE~*~ [/shadow][/updown][/glow]

Tough to give a "technical" answer in regard to what is really an art, and subjective at that.

I mix for each singer. If it's a regular, I can often preset before he/she takes the mic. Otherwise, I must mix on the fly, and by ear for that singer.

There is no magic setting. If there were, we wouldn't have to mix. Some of the general things that you mentioned- such as lowered bass/ higher treble for males -obviously won't apply. It wouldn't work for a male with a high voice. If a woman is a mic-eater, her bass may have to be dropped, not increased.

I DO generally keep a little reverb with a very short delay on almost all singers. The exception MAY be a singer with a HUGE amount of vibrato in the voice. I will increase reverb for a singer with a very flat ( meaning NO vibrato ) voice.

I also do something else on the sly. I will, on occasion, adjust the key on the mic to bring a singer on key. It has to be done without the singer's knowledge. If you tell the singer that you are, say, dropping the mic key, for some reason they will sing lower- don't ask me why. This also helps the show because the singers know only that they sound better at my show than another.

If a singer is just not that talented, I will do what I can AND adjust the vocal volume to equal the music, or even a touch lower. If it's a regular, I will already have made sure I'm set to mono. ( I use stereo in some venues, or for some singers).

None of the above is set in stone, and plenty of Karaoke Hosts will do it differently. Like I said- It's an art, not a science.

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

All good responses. What amazes me are the MANY shows that I go to where I don't see the KJ adjusting the mix on almost anyone at all. So is short, to get great sound it takes experience and an artistic ear.

There's your answer right there.... Ya knew it all along.

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

This quote excites me, I'm pretty good at mixing a good singer... But bad singers, i can rarely help... most the poor singers notice when I lowering the mic volume to blend in with the music, and either look confused or develop really bad habits (screaming and eating mircophones). But what is this Key on the mic you speak of, and how would mono / stereo help.

These both slipped past me as well. Key change on the music. You can do the mic if you have a special processor. Definitely don't understand the stereo mono on a vocal - if they are panned straight up/center - they are still mono even in a stereo mode.

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I've done key changes on a few people without them knowing because I could hear the key they were wanting to sing in. I've only done it a few times though with regulars. Sometimes key changing will throw people off worse, so you have to be careful with it. Even fabulous singers who are struggling because a song is a little to high for them get thrown by a key change in the middle of a song. If I change the key before they start they are okay, but if I change the key in the middle of the song they can't adjust even if it appears all they need is a half step down.

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[shadow=pink][glow=deepskyblue]. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
[updown]~*~ MONKEY BUSINESS KARAOKE~*~ [/shadow][/updown][/glow]